ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[mansr]

6 hours ago, fas42 said:

a scope is far too low in resolution

Sounds like you know what needs to be measured. Why don't you tell us so we can try it?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

42 minutes ago, mansr said:

Why don't you tell us ?

 

Noooooooooooooo!

[marce]

15 hours ago, Abtr said:

Thanks. But for an ethernet cable to function as a common mode choke filter, POE should use the two wires of a twisted pair for DC power and return connections, i.e., solid colored wires for (positive) power and dashed white wires for (negative) return. The POE adapters don't do this. As @mansr stated above, they connect both wires in one differential pair to the negative side and both wires in another pair to the positive side of the DC power supply.

 

So, it seems that most mechanisms thought to be at work in tightly twisted pairs (e.g., common mode noise rejection, impedance matching of the two conductors which helps common mode noise rejection, reduction of inductance and inter-wire capacitance) don't apply to POE.

 

Perhaps the twisting of two conductors for each DC connection cancels out the magnetic field that a single wire would generate around itself, thus preventing it from inducing noise into the other twisted pair and/or other audio gear. I wonder how relevant this can be for a DC power cable/connection?

Slap the cable through a ferrite and you have a common mode choke...

[marce]

15 hours ago, Abtr said:

Thanks. But for an ethernet cable to function as a common mode choke filter, POE should use the two wires of a twisted pair for DC power and return connections, i.e., solid colored wires for (positive) power and dashed white wires for (negative) return. The POE adapters don't do this. As @mansr stated above, they connect both wires in one differential pair to the negative side and both wires in another pair to the positive side of the DC power supply.

 

So, it seems that most mechanisms thought to be at work in tightly twisted pairs (e.g., common mode noise rejection, impedance matching of the two conductors which helps common mode noise rejection, reduction of inductance and inter-wire capacitance) don't apply to POE.

 

Perhaps the twisting of two conductors for each DC connection cancels out the magnetic field that a single wire would generate around itself, thus preventing it from inducing noise into the other twisted pair and/or other audio gear. I wonder how relevant this can be for a DC power cable/connection?

Second reading a cable cannot act as a common mode choke! As siad use a ferrite on the cable.

[marce]

9 hours ago, opus101 said:

 

Why? You reckon a scope can resolve CM noise differences?

No but its the only way to determine what if anything is going on... I am not a believer in magical cables either dc or ac.

[manishex]

Is it advantageous to have a Canare cable before the Ethernet dc?

Is there any benefit in using an ethernet dc after the LT3045 as it was stated the main difference is before.

[opus101]

55 minutes ago, marce said:

No but its the only way to determine what if anything is going on

 

Looks like a failure of imagination 'only way'. I can think of another and I've already suggested a follow-up experiment to help figure things out.

[Abtr]

8 hours ago, marce said:

Second reading a cable cannot act as a common mode choke! As said use a ferrite on the cable.

Well, I think a single twisted pair of wires for DC positive and negative conduction could function exactly as a common mode choke. But PoE doesn't do this because both wires in one twisted pair are connected to the negative side of the DC power supply and both wires in another twisted pair are connected to the positive side.

 

In this configuration a possible mechanism for PoE to improve SQ is that each twisted pair cancels out the magnetic field that a single wire would generate around itself, thus preventing it from inducing noise into the other twisted pair (or in other audio gear). The specific shielding of the Ethernet cable may also be an important factor..

 

[mansr]

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

Well, I think a single twisted pair of wires for DC positive and negative conduction could function exactly as a common mode choke.

You might think so, but you'd be wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is.

 

1 hour ago, Abtr said:

But PoE doesn't do this because both wires in one twisted pair are connected to the negative side of the DC power supply and both wires in another twisted pair are connected to the positive side.

 

In this configuration a possible mechanism for PoE to improve SQ is that each twisted pair cancels out the magnetic field that a single wire would generate around itself, thus preventing it from inducing noise into the other twisted pair (or in other audio gear).

No, it wouldn't do that. The magnetic fields from two roughly parallel conductors carrying current in the same direction do not cancel. At a distance of an inch or more, the magnetic field will be very close to that from a single conductor.

[tims]

Looking for a Ugreen Ethernet cable on ebay and came across this one here:https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-Ethernet-Cable-Cat7-RJ45-Network-Patch-Cable-10-Gigabit-For-Laptop-PC-Mac/152108723581?hash=item236a62ed7d:m:mTy5KCpsGONMDL2q5i_RZXg

I don't know if it's the same Ugreen cable recommended in this thread but there's a nice close-up of the cable:

Each pair has a ground wire/line - what function would this have? 

[mansr]

14 minutes ago, tims said:

Looking for a Ugreen Ethernet cable on ebay and came across this one here:https://www.ebay.com/itm/UGREEN-Ethernet-Cable-Cat7-RJ45-Network-Patch-Cable-10-Gigabit-For-Laptop-PC-Mac/152108723581?hash=item236a62ed7d:m:mTy5KCpsGONMDL2q5i_RZXg

I don't know if it's the same Ugreen cable recommended in this thread but there's a nice close-up of the cable:

Each pair has a ground wire/line - what function would this have? 

That would be a drain wire for the shield. This reduces the lengthwise resistance without making the shield foil thicker and stiffer. The crosswise resistance from any point on the shield to the drain wire is negligible.

[bit01]

@tims-I have that flat UGREEN CAT7 in a 1 metre length. I got it from Amazon. I would recommend it highly. There is a round version as well which I do not have. @totoxio might chime in as he has both versions. I do have Tera Grand CAT7 though in both round and flat (braided jacket) and much prefer the latter for the DC usage.

 

edit- I should mention that I use these from the Uptone LPS-1.2 to the Sonore ultraRendu, and use all the twisted pairs for power (brn/orn +ve, blu/grn -ve). Of the Tera Grand flat cables I have I prefer the 2M to the 1M long in this application.

[fas42]

13 hours ago, mansr said:

Sounds like you know what needs to be measured. Why don't you tell us so we can try it?

 

Sounds like you haven't been paying attention. I have repeatedly stated that at the moment it would be extremely difficult to show a measurement that correlated with what people can hear, when the SQ is not quite right. Which is why the solution at the moment is to use those perceptive ears - eventually, someone will nail a suite of test signals, nicely tied up with a pretty bow, that will "tell the full story" - but it ain't here yet ...

[genjamon]

Alright, I just finished comparing the PoE adapters with Ugreen flat 1m in between compared with ~.5m Supra Cat8 with two twisted pairs +V and two pairs -V, tinned conductors, plugged into cheap screw type barrel connectors on each end, and with JSSG ground wire hanging loose rather than tightly wound like Charles did. That’s how I read JS’s instructions, to leave it loose rather than tightly wound.

 

This is between an Uptone LPS 1.2 and a Sonora Ultrarendu. Into a Lampizator Big7 DAC using the R2R PCM module. Streaming from Tidal. 

 

Results: absolutely no contest. Supra Cat8 clearly superior. Ugreen/PoE had good detail, but white washed presentation in comparison. Supra has more body to instruments, and more micro detail retrieval as well. Overall much more realistic portrayal and more musical. All effects are along the lines of what I have come to exoerience whenever noise floor is lowered in digital circuits, whether through DAC, streamer/computer, modem/router/switch, etc. 

[totoxio]

@genjamon Have you tried uGreen round? I have both 1m round and flat versions, and I found flat version to produce a softer/smoother sound than round version. Perhaps is it the same you describe as white wash? I tend to prefer smoother sound but thats just me. Round version sounds a bit livelier, but still conserves this "rightness" in sound.

[genjamon]

No, my meaning of “white wash” is quite the opposite. That of emphasizing transients, not a fully fleshed out sound of real instruments with real tone, etc. for instance, with guitar, an emphasis on the plucked string, but not much in the way of resonance from the body of the guitar which is essential to the tone of a guitar’s sound. 

 

My my suspicion is that this effect has its basis in an emphasis on upper midrange frequencies over lower midrange and upper bass frequencies - the frequency balance is out of whack. 

 

However, I also hear additional micro details within he sounds of instruments with the Supra that I don’t hear as well with the Ugreen flat. For instance, snare drum has more detail and decay to its sound, whereas the Ugreen/PoE combo blunts that detail and decay somewhat. 

 

So, I’m hearing both a better frequency balance, as well as better microdetail/resolution/refinement with the Supra. 

 

Sorry. 

[bit01]

@genjamon - Does your UGREEN/PoE adapter combo use the two or the four twisted pairs for power? I take it the Supra is using the four. I am wondering if it is really apples & apples you are comparing?

If it is using the PoE 2 pairs and you would like to try all the 4, you can have a look at my post on page 11 showing the mod to the adapter that achieves this without cutting the cable.

[beerandmusic]

haven't read through the thread yet, but just curious, can this enet/usb power adapter be used without a regen to improve ....like using for power to dac?

[bit01]

Well, they are rated in the CAT DC PoE spec (something like 57 V max & 15.4 W?). If you double up the pairs per leg you could possibly double the current but you want to avoid heat build up. I am using a Supra CAT7/8 at 7.5 volts & .5A, 2A max. Some CAT7s use 30AWG wires (e.g. Tera Grand flat)!

[michaeltay5871]

I tried the Wireworld starlight flat cat 8 cable that is not twisted at all but triple shielded for each pair of silver clad ofc 23 awg conductors.  There is a leap in clarity with all the associated benefits and without any detriment to overall sound.  Maybe the shielding and material of conductors are crucial.

[flkin]

 

PoE's have different wiring configurations. The Amazon 4 piece set I purchased had wires 7 and 8 for negative and 4 and 5 for positive DC.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LX1WL2Z?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title

 

This is different from the pictures are the beginning of this thread. 

[sandyk]

19 hours ago, marce said:

Slap the cable through a ferrite and you have a common mode choke...

 Marc

 Please check your PMs

 

Kind Regards

Alex

[bit01]

3 hours ago, flkin said:

 

PoE's have different wiring configurations. The Amazon 4 piece set I purchased had wires 7 and 8 for negative and 4 and 5 for positive DC.

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01LX1WL2Z?psc=1&ref=yo_pop_mb_pd_title

 

This is different from the pictures are the beginning of this thread. 

That is what the line diag. on page 1 shows. The pcb cut-away on page 1 has no pin #s but you can compare the layout to page 11 pics, which shows pin #s

[tims]

Been trying to find some supra cat8 for a reasonable price and found this at $9 metre.  Is this the going price for supra cable?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supra-CAT-8-STP-cable-bulk-for-DIY-Made-in-Sweden-BEST-FOR-NETWORK-AUDIO-/401540485197

[lmitche]

5 minutes ago, tims said:

Been trying to find some supra cat8 for a reasonable price and found this at $9 metre.  Is this the going price for supra cable?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Supra-CAT-8-STP-cable-bulk-for-DIY-Made-in-Sweden-BEST-FOR-NETWORK-AUDIO-/401540485197

Yes, that is the pricing from the US based distributor in Washington state. $9 is the price I paid.