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ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!


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1 hour ago, tapatrick said:

Well I owe you for your ongoing sharing of your discoveries!.. Good to see you here.

 

My system is not the same as yours (and some things I haven't agreed with you like streaming for instance, which for me is magic,. I think streaming setups in different locations/countries/cabling and powering is another territory to be  explored). BUT what I've picked up from you, the LT304s, these PoEs, the modded teradak DC30, etc has been very much appreciated.  

 

When I think about how much each of us partaking, sharing and reading these forums, then spending our hard earned cash building each of our systems, tweaking, isolating, grounding, clean powering, working through the frustrations and successes, testing and trying - looking for the holy grail, cooking and nurturing our tastes and our equipment, listening then restlessly looking for that which we haven't found yet like crazy people..

 

THEN it all comes together and the music rises in the room like magic, floating from the speakers, 3D and immersive in the sweet music that moves us. Then its worth it all. I thank you for your contribution to my and many others enjoyment which hasn't meant spending $1000s. I don't know what this PoEs can be doing, its a real mystery and beyond my knowledge level, but they somehow along with all the other things I have done and worked on optimising - they add a secret sauce to my system that nudges the music experinece into bliss.

 

Not sure they would necessarily work this way for everyone on their own but over the past year or so we are getting close, through good folks like you to finding out some key yet simple facts that when put together FOR A FEW $s are leading to real breakthroughs in digital audio. 

 

Cheers Rob

 

PS, yes I bet a few audio companies are paying close attention to threads like this... :)

 

Thank you so much for that post - means a lot.

And you describe so well what we've been able to achieve for peanuts in high end audio terms.  That brings real satisfaction.

It does take an open mind and a bit of courage to by into some of these hard to explain ideas.  

 

And you just nail it with this description:

"THEN it all comes together and the music rises in the room like magic, floating from the speakers, 3D and immersive in the sweet music that moves us."


That exactly what I've been experiencing each and every night - for hours of countless pleasure.  This crazy PoE DC thing has added something special - just a presence factor.  Like real performers in the room.  So real, it's beyond anything I've heard before.

 

As for streaming - well I'm paranoid of connecting my music servers to the Internet.  And the very special SQ boost by running my music files (redbook burned using EAC) from that SLC mSD in a LT3045 powered USB 3.0 hub is something I'm loath to give up.  I've been a huge vintage FM tuner fan - owned dozens - most of the very best.  Mostly for office background listening.  SQ was very good on the best ones.  Sold them all - even in my office system the USB/R2R DAC is just to pure, sweet, and musical.  Same for the last of my analog system - gone and don't miss it.


Cheers Friend!

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1 hour ago, austinpop said:

So 2 questions and a comment.

  1. Is this the new home of the monster USAM thread? I thought this was specifically about the use of POE adapters and Cat 7/Cat 8 ethernet cables, and specifically for the  Uptone products (ISO-R and LPS-1/1.2/JS-2).
  2. Because if it is to be the new monster thread, @Superdad - I assume you have some views about it living in your sponsored area? ? 

My comment - knock off the Larry-bashing. @lmitche has contributed a heck of a lot more to CA than the individual who picked up his toys and left in a huff.

Well No and No.  I didn't see anything in the opening post about using LPS-1's/1.2's and JS-2's with PoE DC - just the Iso Regen as the title says.  And I thought that's what we were doing.  I know that's what I've been talking about here and using.

 

Who said this was a continuation of the USAM thread that was dedicated to the Startech/Icron USB extenders, at least initially?  And there is already continuation one started there.


Why are you so negative?  And making these assumptions.  So far aside from a few OT posts about DC star quad cables - and my posting about Uptones excellent ones (maybe you missed that?)?  It's pretty much been about PoE DC and the IR.  So I don't see where you're coming from...until you posted that last statement.

 

Larry is a great guy - and I don't see why he had to treat wushuliu another great guy, the way he did.  He never attacked Larry - just, I guess didn't have the 'right' attitude for Larry - so he was asked 'to go back to where ever he came'.  That is what you are defending?  Is that the community spirit here?  And asking Larry to just apologize to wushuliu, and invite him back annoys you?  That's not Larry bashing to ask that 'bygones be bygones'-  just trying to mend fences.

 

So you are saying that I shouldn't post on a thread of huge audio discovery I found and continue to pursue?  Using it with Uptone's products. Huh?

 

Just as the thread was in such a beautiful place - why bring that negativity here?  

I never left anywhere in any huff - just chose to post all my audio finds somewhere else.

Did I need your permission to do so?

 

Why did you leave HeadFi?

 

Cheers Mate

 

 

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Does anyone know what the gauge of the wire in the UGREEN is? 

 

Instead of ordering the gotham straight away, I thought I might try using my old audioquest pearl Ethernet cables. They are Cat7 28awg individually shielded pairs... I got some cheap passive PoE adapters from my local electronics store on my way home and as I was plugging everything together I was thinking "this is stupid, I am adding length to my DC cables and a bunch of cheap connectors".... I DID NOT REMOVE MY EXISTING GHENT CABLE..... I plugged my Ghent canare 4s6 "y" cable that comes out of my sps-500 into the PoE adapters and one 1.5 meter audioquest pearl Ethernet went to power my sMS-200 and the other side of the y cable went to my other length of pearl (through another set of PoE adapters) to power my sonicTransporter i5.

 

This whole thing is completely counter intuitive, I did not remove anything from my DC cables but rather added to it.

 

I have got a very nice upgrade in sound quality... More holographic, more natural, less trebble harshness tighter bass... VERY worthwhile.

 

This is just a guess but the only way this makes sense is if the Ethernet cable is acting as a filter. The twists in the cable are attenuating crosstalk between the pairs and acting as a filter between the psu and the powered device... The filter is stopping noise from getting back into the psu and creating a feedback loop... This is just a guess... If I remember correctly the sotm sps-500 has a filter to filter the noise coming back from the powered device to the psu - however this use of Ethernet cable has still brought a very nice improvement... 

 

The cables I used were 1.5 meters long.... So maybe shorter lengths have less of an impact??? This is just a theory... I haven't tried it yet 

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16 minutes ago, Bricki said:

Does anyone know what the gauge of the wire in the UGREEN is? 

 

Instead of ordering the gotham straight away, I thought I might try using my old audioquest pearl Ethernet cables. They are Cat7 28awg individually shielded pairs... I got some cheap passive PoE adapters from my local electronics store on my way home and as I was plugging everything together I was thinking "this is stupid, I am adding length to my DC cables and a bunch of cheap connectors".... I DID NOT REMOVE MY EXISTING GHENT CABLE..... I plugged my Ghent canare 4s6 "y" cable that comes out of my sps-500 into the PoE adapters and one 1.5 meter audioquest pearl Ethernet went to power my sMS-200 and the other side of the y cable went to my other length of pearl (through another set of PoE adapters) to power my sonicTransporter i5.

 

This whole thing is completely counter intuitive, I did not remove anything from my DC cables but rather added to it.

 

I have got a very nice upgrade in sound quality... More holographic, more natural, less trebble harshness tighter bass... VERY worthwhile.

 

This is just a guess but the only way this makes sense is if the Ethernet cable is acting as a filter. The twists in the cable are attenuating crosstalk between the pairs and acting as a filter between the psu and the powered device... The filter is stopping noise from getting back into the psu and creating a feedback loop... This is just a guess... If I remember correctly the sotm sps-500 has a filter to filter the noise coming back from the powered device to the psu - however this use of Ethernet cable has still brought a very nice improvement... 

 

The cables I used were 1.5 meters long.... So maybe shorter lengths have less of an impact??? This is just a theory... I haven't tried it yet 

The UGREEN is 28awg - I have been really curious to order a AQ Vodka from Music Direct just to try it.  AQ uses silver plated copper wire.

I use the Ghent 'Y' as well and same as you just added to the connection between the Ghent and the LT3045 box input.

 

Totally agree this should not be improving the SQ - but hurting it!  But it does and not in a subtle way!

 

And the filter theory I share for the exact same reasoning.  And I think it's the twisted pairs being separate in even better in CAT 7 and CAT the twisted pairs are individually shielded - possible reducing some capacitive coupling between + and ground.  In a star quad all four cables are twisted together.

 

Cheers!

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UGREEN (flat)  description mentions 26AWG, as does the IBRA (flat). FWIW - the construction looks similar and shows a drain wire (GND)  inside the shield of each twisted pair for the flat versions (no overall shield). This is different from the round cable where one drain wire and an overall shield in contact with the twisted pair shields is shown.

image.thumb.png.41cebf26d550c1c4db5065ea14ff793f.png

image.thumb.png.ab07c219025d29499fcaf8f648743627.png

 

spec:

https://www.ugreen.com/product/1322-en.html#ad-image-6

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2 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

VH Audio is now selling just such a cable V-Quad Cu21 and Cu24  (21 and 24 AWG conductors) with true starquad and very low dielectric absorption. I think this would be a very good cable to try. It's not cheap ($24 or $27 per foot) but it may just be a very good combination.

 

I have a couple of DC cables made from V-Quad Cu21, and they are the best of all my copper wire DC cables.  (Sadly, I have gone through quite a few different DC cables.)  It easily beats the Sonore DC-4 cable made by Cardas as well as the Uptone custom DC cable. 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - @rb2013 and @logicsound were the same person. That’s not allowed here at CA. 

Hi Chris,

 

I would like to recommend that this thread be deleted. Short off that, it should be moved out of the Uptone sponsored section into the general topic section.  This discussion has little to do with the Uptone Audio Regen. I am sure Alex would be delighted with either solution.

 

Many thanks for your consideration.

 

Larry

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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3 hours ago, austinpop said:

So 2 questions and a comment.

  1. Is this the new home of the monster USAM thread? I thought this was specifically about the use of POE adapters and Cat 7/Cat 8 ethernet cables, and specifically for the  Uptone products (ISO-R and LPS-1/1.2/JS-2).
  2. Because if it is to be the new monster thread, @Superdad - I assume you have some views about it living in your sponsored area? ? 

My comment - knock off the Larry-bashing. @lmitche has contributed a heck of a lot more to CA than the individual who picked up his toys and left in a huff.

Hi Rajiv,

 

Many thanks for your support.

 

Larry

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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13 hours ago, rb2013 said:

And the what like 5 Zero Zone Amb Sigma 11 LPS's you bought, after learning about them there

Rob,

 

I learned about the AMB Sigma 11 from two CAers edbk and Eurodriver from whom I bought my first Sigma 11s in August of 2015. This was years before you started the USAM thread in January of 2017.

 

I did indeed learn of the ldovr.com lt3045 boards on your website.

 

Let's keep the facts straight.

 

Larry

Pareto Audio aka nuckleheadaudio

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1 hour ago, JohnSwenson said:

My current ideas as to what matters for a DC cable is inductance and dielectric absorption. The inductance is primarily determined by the geometry of the wires, and dielectric absorption is determined by the insulation on the wires.

 

Starquad is by far the lowest inductance geometry, much better than twisted pair, 1/3 the inductance.

 

PVC (a very common wire insulation) has very high dielectric absoorption, polypropylene and teflon are very low (100 times less than PVC).

 

I think what has been happening here is that different cables have been trading these two off with each other. With the multiple twisted pairs you get inductance higher than starquad, but things like shielding, how tight the twist etc. are causing some differences in the inductance, and different cables have different dielectric materials.

 

I really think we need to try true starquad with low dielectric absorption insulation. The Canare is true starquad but uses PVC.

 

VH Audio is now selling just such a cable V-Quad Cu21 and Cu24  (21 and 24 AWG conductors) with true starquad and very low dielectric absorption. I think this would be a very good cable to try. It's not cheap ($24 or $27 per foot) but it may just be a very good combination.

 

Another cable I have been using for interconnects is Belden 1804A, starquad with polypropylene, but 28 AWG. If you guys are finding that 28 AWG conductors are all right it might be a good candidate. It is a LOT cheaper than the above VH cable.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

John S.

Thanks so much for this very insightful post about dielectric absorption.

 

Because I know very little about this I apologise if my question sounds ill informed. 

 

Is it possible that the lower dielectric absorption of the Ethernet cable I added after my canare 4s6 cable has contributed to the sound quality improvement? I assume this was implied in your original post... But I thought I would ask because the improvement I heard was with both cables still in place... Clearly if the v-quad cu 21 cables can combine the 2 characteristics of low inductance and low dielectric absorption into one cable then it should be an improvement again... 

 

Thanks again for your insights 

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3 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

My current ideas as to what matters for a DC cable is inductance and dielectric absorption. The inductance is primarily determined by the geometry of the wires, and dielectric absorption is determined by the insulation on the wires.

 

Starquad is by far the lowest inductance geometry, much better than twisted pair, 1/3 the inductance.

 

PVC (a very common wire insulation) has very high dielectric absoorption, polypropylene and teflon are very low (100 times less than PVC).

 

I think what has been happening here is that different cables have been trading these two off with each other. With the multiple twisted pairs you get inductance higher than starquad, but things like shielding, how tight the twist etc. are causing some differences in the inductance, and different cables have different dielectric materials.

 

I really think we need to try true starquad with low dielectric absorption insulation. The Canare is true starquad but uses PVC.

 

VH Audio is now selling just such a cable V-Quad Cu21 and Cu24  (21 and 24 AWG conductors) with true starquad and very low dielectric absorption. I think this would be a very good cable to try. It's not cheap ($24 or $27 per foot) but it may just be a very good combination.

 

Another cable I have been using for interconnects is Belden 1804A, starquad with polypropylene, but 28 AWG. If you guys are finding that 28 AWG conductors are all right it might be a good candidate. It is a LOT cheaper than the above VH cable.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

John S.

Neotech make a hook-up wire, 18 AWG UPOCC copper stranded with PTFE insulation.

Not cheap, at $3.50 a foot times four for  home made starquad. Put JSSG on top.  Any problems with this idea ?

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Hello everybody. First post in this forum, which I find fascinating. I'd like to thank you all for the useful findings you share, that have resulted in a noticieable improvement in my audio enjoyment. 

 

My dac is a Chord Mojo, which I consider ultra sensitive to noise on its inputs (especially USB), so I migrated to coax, using Singxer F1, which is also very sensitive to the quality of DC it is fed in.

 

The POE DC / DC over CAT cable tweak using Ugreen CAT7 round cable brought an inmediate noticeable change which I like, but there's one thing that worries me, and it is the fact that I have to lower volume on my Mojo around 2db to get to the same volume than when I don't use the POE trick. The thing is that if I use the DAC's optical input, totally galvanic isolated by nature, I need to increase the volume instead of decreasing with the POE. This makes me wonder that maybe I might be introducing some kind of noise with the CAT cable that creates pleasant coloration, but coloration after all. It feels like if I was using an equalizer to create a smiley face eq, with more aparent width and separation, but without the phase changes that usually come with using eq.

 

Singxer+regular DC cable --> Baseline

Singxer+POE ---> Need to decrease 2db volume

Optical input (no noise) ---> Need to increase 2-3db volume to get to baseline

 

Is there any explanation for this difference in volume with/without POE and using optical input?

 

 

 

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@totoxio - The CAT/DC cables are a bit of a puzzle! Like you say one can notice an apparent increase in volume. In my setup (LPS1.2>ultraRendu) and with the few cables I have tried, the Supra CAT8+JSSG (1ft, round) is the king of this phenomena! Next is the flat braided Tera Grand CAT7 (6ft). The UGREEN flat CAT7 (3ft) is the  least 'volume changer' together with the Tera Grand CAT7 round (3ft)! A lot going on here - and this is when I compare to my custom 'near star quad' teflon/silver plated OFC 2x22AWG per leg! IMO the Supra, flat UGREEN & flat braided Tera Grand, edge it in performance.

FWIW - I feel the 'flat' (Tera Grand) cable I have to be better than the round one at this DC thing but this is not a scientifically studied subject by me. I should at least initially standardize the length at 3ft for the different CAT cables and see what 'audible' conclusions I come up with.

 

edit- I should mention that I use all the twisted pairs for power. I use the modified adapter as shown in my earlier post to achieve this when applicable.

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All good with me if the thread gets moved as the original intention was to share the benefits with as many as possible who have bought the ISO Regen.

So far gretest of benefits for me have come when feeding the ISO Regen but I have been using these cables in several other parts of my chain recently with smaller incremental improvements.

Seriously thinking next to break into all the DC lines in a Meitner MA1 to see what happens by adding CAT7 cables so I expect this discussion could break out into other areas very soon.

 

Hopefully all this point scoring will run out of gass soon and we get to the bottom of what is going on here, it will help move us to even better DC cable standards where audio is concerned ?

Audio PC - Gigabyte H97M-D3H, i7 at 800Mhz, RAM at 800Mhz & PPA OCXO Mobo, Teradak ATX Linear for 20 pin ATX on Mobo, Paul Hynes SR7EHD 12v, 5v & 5v supply on Mobo, Stammheim 12x LT3045's for 1.3v to RAM direct supply, JCat V2 USB Card, WTFPlay Linux Audiophile Player control by MELE F10, Startech LEX to REX on 12v Paul Hynes with 2x SLC cards and out by POE to ISO/Regen, PPA Red USB Cable, Lampizator Big7, Nige design Lifepo4 powered amp, Raidho C1s.

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9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Guys - @rb2013 and @logicsound were the same person. That’s not allowed here at CA. 

Jeez, ... just read back thru these 2 posters - a major role-play flip, schizophrenia-scripting ...

macmini M1>ethernet / elgar iso tran(2.5kVa, .0005pfd)>consonance pw-3 boards>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360)>etherRegen(js-2)>ghent ethernet(et linkway cat8 jssg360) >ultraRendu (clones lpsu>lps1.2)>curious regen link>rme adi-2 dac(js-2)>cawsey cables>naquadria sp2 passive pre> 1.naquadria lucien mkII.5 power>elac fs249be + elac 4pi plus.2> 2.perreaux9000b(mods)>2x naquadria 12” passive subs.

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2 hours ago, jamesg11 said:

Jeez, ... just read back thru these 2 posters - a major role-play flip, schizophrenia-scripting ...

 

Wow, just wow. Like I said, would love to have met up with this Rob dude as he’s in the same home town, but man, life’s too short....

SERVER CLOSET (in office directly below living room stereo):NUC 7i5BNH with Roon ROCK (ZeroZone 12V on the NUC)>Cisco 2690L-16PS switch>Sonore opticalModule (Uptone LPS 1.2)>

LIVING ROOM: Sonore opticalRendu Roon version (Sonore Power Supply)> Shunyata Venom USB>Naim DAC V1>Witchhat DIN>Naim NAP 160 Bolt Down>Chord Rumor 2>Audio Physic Compact Classics. OFFICE: opticalModule> Sonore microRendu 1.4> Matrix Mini-i Pro 3> Naim NAP 110>NACA5>KEF Ls50's. BJC 6a and Ghent Catsnake 6a JSSG ethernet; AC cables: Shunyata Venom NR V-10; Audience Forte F3; Ice Age copper/copper; Sean Jacobs CHC PowerBlack, Moon Audio DIN>RCA, USB A>C. Isolation: Herbie's Audio Lab. 

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On 5/29/2018 at 7:42 PM, lmitche said:

Over the weekend, I sent a length of the Gotham cable, a pair of POE adapters and a 1 meter Ibra cable to John Swenson.

 

I look forward to John's analysis.

 

Larry

It's going to be awhile before I can work on this. I have a whole bunch of high priority tasks right now and my wife has said I have to cut down on the number of tasks at the same time, I have been so stressed out over things my health is starting to suffer and I'm making bad decisions.

 

So until some of the other stuff gets finished I won't be able to add anything new to the task list. I'm still doing the little PC board for the Philmore adapter (that is going out tomorrow) which will make putting together test cables a lot easier, but that is about it right now.

 

John S.

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