ISO Regen performance Improvement Cheap!

[genjamon]

7 hours ago, bit01 said:

@genjamon - Does your UGREEN/PoE adapter combo use the two or the four twisted pairs for power? I take it the Supra is using the four. I am wondering if it is really apples & apples you are comparing?

If it is using the PoE 2 pairs and you would like to try all the 4, you can have a look at my post on page 11 showing the mod to the adapter that achieves this without cutting the cable.

 

 

Its absolutely not an apples to apples comparison. It’s been at least a couple pages back in the thread, not sure exactly, but the original initiator of this tweak Rob was posting on this thread claiming the evolution to the Supra Cat8 approach developed by Charles on this thread would not sound as good as the original suggested PoE adapters with cheap Ugreen Ethernet cable. He was saying there was something magical about the flat Ugreen geometry that was superior. I doubted him, but given that I already had the original referenced PoE adapters in hand, I splurged and ordered the $6 Ugreen flat cable to check his assertion. So, not intended to be apples to apples, since the claims of superiority were actually based in the differences. 

 

As for modding the PoE connectors, I’m not really interested in going further with that. But I am interested in adding an LT3045 in-line as Charles has done. I have one on the way to test.

[bit01]

@genjamon  - Understood. Enjoy!

[flkin]

5 hours ago, bit01 said:

That is what the line diag. on page 1 shows. The pcb cut-away on page 1 has no pin #s but you can compare the layout to page 11 pics, which shows pin #s

 

Ah, got it. Thanks for the correction. I misread the diagram on page 1.

[totoxio]

@genjamon First, thank you for your detailed description of how you compare uGreen flat to Supra cables. While your impressions are totally different than mine, this is not a right or wrong situation. You know, different ears, different systems, even different goals. But after your excellent review, I now think that trying the Supra cables is a must. I will do a comparison when I get them.

 

I think you may hear a difference once you add the LT3045 in-line. That's the way I have it. I'd like to point out that the POE injector and the CAT cables are an addition to my system, they have not replaced anything. I still use a 30 cm Canare 4S6 with Oyaide plugs  and a micro usb adaptor between the LT3045 board and the iDefender that feeds my Singxer F1. The POE trick comes only before the LT3045 because I think that while the CAT7 is doing some good, it is still a cable, no matter how insulated or twisted it is. So, this EMI/RFI they are introducing to the system has to be filtered out somehow. (I also use a ferrite bead).

 

BTW, I also plan to keep my POE injector intact. This cable swapping thing is mindblowing!. One night I prefer a certain cable, next night the other, depending on mood and type of music. Almost like different EQ presets but subtler. But as I wrote before, I don't hear any of the disadvantages of EQing. For example, if I boost the bass with UAPP, it sounds looser. With POE the bass sounds more noticeable but tighter! And the midrange sounds just right! So, no phase shift and no bleeding into other frequencies I guess? 

 

 

[genjamon]

2 minutes ago, totoxio said:

@genjamon First, thank you for your detailed description of how you compare uGreen flat to Supra cables. While your impressions are totally different than mine, this is not a right or wrong situation. You know, different ears, different systems, even different goals. But after your excellent review, I now think that trying the Supra cables is a must. I will do a comparison when I get them.

 

I think you may hear a difference once you add the LT3045 in-line. That's the way I have it. I'd like to point out that the POE injector and the CAT cables are an addition to my system, they have not replaced anything. I still use a 30 cm Canare 4S6 with Oyaide plugs  and a micro usb adaptor between the LT3045 board and the iDefender that feeds my Singxer F1. The POE trick comes only before the LT3045 because I think that while the CAT7 is doing some good, it is still a cable, no matter how insulated or twisted it is. So, this EMI/RFI they are introducing to the system has to be filtered out somehow. (I also use a ferrite bead).

 

BTW, I also plan to keep my POE injector intact. This cable swapping thing is mindblowing!. One night I prefer a certain cable, next night the other, depending on mood and type of music. Almost like different EQ presets! But as I wrote before, I don't hear any of the disadvantages of EQing. For example, if I boost the bass with UAPP, it sounds looser. With POE the bass sounds more noticeable but tighter! And the midrange sounds just right! So, no phase shift and no bleeding into other frequencies I guess? 

 

 

 

Well, we have a ton of differences between our two implementations, so no need to even get into the different ears/different goals stuff.  Just the differences you've explained are enough to make my head spin:

 

Me - straight DC cable swap between LPS-1.2 and UltraRendu > USB DAC input - no further tweaks

You - some kind of power supply > PoE > LT3045 > Canare 4s6 > iDefender > Singxer F1 > SPDIF DAC input

 

These are very different power chains, feeding very different system implementations.  The LT3045, iDefender, Singxer F1, and whatever DAC you have and its SPDIF input could all have impacts that change the nature of the impacts of this ethernet cable tweak.  So yeah, not really worth comparing our impressions side by side and expecting consistencies IMO.

[totoxio]

3 minutes ago, genjamon said:

So yeah, not really worth comparing our impressions side by side and expecting consistencies IMO.

 

In other words, that's exactly what I said. Glad we agree. 

 

Cheers.

[Quadman]

LT3045 boards after LPSU's in series and acting as step down devices really do make a positive change in the sound.

 

Last night was my second session of the full cat 8 direct connect DC power cable set up.  By the time I sat to listen the cables had 54 hours under power.  Nothin subtle about this session whereas the first night I really enjoyed the sound but it wasn't until 1:30 AM when I realized what these cables were doing different from the cat 7/custom PoE I was using until then.  Nope this was as subtle as a jackhammer wow, the transformation with over 50 hours with power was simply amazing.  No mistaking anything, this simply was the best sound I have ever heard.  The whole stage starts 3 feet behind my speakers and then just goes back as far and as wide as you can imagine, never have I heard the depth and width that I got last night from my system/room.  The solidity and realness of the images so there so palpable, proper sized, not big headed, they had body and real dimension to them, harmonics and tonality again the best I have had.  The body of wood instruments had the best attack of the string and fullness of the instruments body that I have heard.  Second harmonics of these and the piano's sound board left my jaw agape.

 

I got into a 2 hour section of the evening playing classical, violin concerto's, that truly reminded my of my time in Minnesota sitting in center row 12 listening to Osmo Vanska leading the orchestra.  The width, depth, separation of the orchestra coupled with the magic tonality of the violins just took my breath away.  Even the softest woodwind passages had magic and clarity.  I had no walls, no speakers just glorious sound filling my room.  It was the most lifelike sound I have heard from any system.  Is there a limit to how good this can get?

 

Obviously these cables take some time to burn in and settle down, I don't know if the improvement has peaked or will it continue to improve as the hours roll up.  I can't wait until Friday evening to find out.

[Abtr]

19 hours ago, mansr said:

You might think so, but you'd be wrong. Sorry, that's just how it is.

 

No, it wouldn't do that. The magnetic fields from two roughly parallel conductors carrying current in the same direction do not cancel. At a distance of an inch or more, the magnetic field will be very close to that from a single conductor.

I was thinking that because in a twisted pair both wires are tightly coiled around each other in opposite directions, their respective magnetic fields may be (partially) canceled and/or HF common mode noise may be attenuated. But I accept your opinion..

 

Then the only possible mechanism left for SQ improvement with PoE relative to a regular (star quad) DC cable, seems to be specific isolation and/or used dielectric materials of an ethernet cable.    

[mansr]

2 hours ago, Abtr said:

I was thinking that because in a twisted pair both wires are tightly coiled around each other in opposite directions, their respective magnetic fields may be (partially) canceled

If the current flowed in opposite directions, sure. In this case (PoE), the current flows the same direction through both wires of a pair, the return being a different pair.

[genjamon]

Any chance this is similar to benefits from Litz wiring? I’m not too fluent in the specifics of Litz benefits, and maybe they’re just for AC and not for DC? But if they do apply to DC conditions, maybe that’s part of the story? Doesn’t that have to do with reducing skin effect? And the multiple sets of twisted pairs further twisted around each other might give us a similar benefit?

 

Whether or not Litz effects are at work, my money is on this being a simple matter of better shielding and wire geometry for rejection of noise. 

[totoxio]

Question: Are dielectric absorption and insulation resistance the same or related?

 

Mr. JS mentioned something about dielectric absortion as one of the possible causes for this POE discovery. After that, marce replied "

"John, I cannot see how dielectric absorption can have any effect at DC... Even low frequencies it has minimal effect at DC it will have none? Puzzled".

 

These CAT cables strands are very thin, and proportionally, the insulation is higher (maybe). The cheaper CAT cables also use PVC as insulation material. So maybe there's a lot of insulation resistance going on. Combining both posts (and yours), maybe there's some atenuation going on for AC leakages because they travel in the outside layer of the CAT cables by skin effect, closer to insulation than the DC. So, more resistance to AC than to DC, so AC filtering.

 

Maybe I'm saying nonsense, but hey, it's just another theory.

[fas42]

10 hours ago, Quadman said:

No mistaking anything, this simply was the best sound I have ever heard.  The whole stage starts 3 feet behind my speakers and then just goes back as far and as wide as you can imagine, never have I heard the depth and width that I got last night from my system/room.  The solidity and realness of the images so there so palpable, proper sized, not big headed, they had body and real dimension to them, harmonics and tonality again the best I have had.  The body of wood instruments had the best attack of the string and fullness of the instruments body that I have heard.  Second harmonics of these and the piano's sound board left my jaw agape.

 

I got into a 2 hour section of the evening playing classical, violin concerto's, that truly reminded my of my time in Minnesota sitting in center row 12 listening to Osmo Vanska leading the orchestra.  The width, depth, separation of the orchestra coupled with the magic tonality of the violins just took my breath away.  Even the softest woodwind passages had magic and clarity.  I had no walls, no speakers just glorious sound filling my room.  It was the most lifelike sound I have heard from any system.  Is there a limit to how good this can get?

 

A nice description of competent sound ... as regards limits, not really - there have been moments when I've realised that there is even more on tap, when enough of the setup is peaking simultaneously. If you can sustain the SQ you describe indefinitely, congrats!!

[sandyk]

10 hours ago, Quadman said:

LT3045 boards after LPSU's in series and acting as step down devices really do make a positive change in the sound.

 

Last night was my second session of the full cat 8 direct connect DC power cable set up.  By the time I sat to listen the cables had 54 hours under power.  Nothin subtle about this session whereas the first night I really enjoyed the sound but it wasn't until 1:30 AM when I realized what these cables were doing different from the cat 7/custom PoE I was using until then.  Nope this was as subtle as a jackhammer wow, the transformation with over 50 hours with power was simply amazing.  No mistaking anything, this simply was the best sound I have ever heard.  The whole stage starts 3 feet behind my speakers and then just goes back as far and as wide as you can imagine, never have I heard the depth and width that I got last night from my system/room.  The solidity and realness of the images so there so palpable, proper sized, not big headed, they had body and real dimension to them, harmonics and tonality again the best I have had.  The body of wood instruments had the best attack of the string and fullness of the instruments body that I have heard.  Second harmonics of these and the piano's sound board left my jaw agape.

 

I got into a 2 hour section of the evening playing classical, violin concerto's, that truly reminded my of my time in Minnesota sitting in center row 12 listening to Osmo Vanska leading the orchestra.  The width, depth, separation of the orchestra coupled with the magic tonality of the violins just took my breath away.  Even the softest woodwind passages had magic and clarity.  I had no walls, no speakers just glorious sound filling my room.  It was the most lifelike sound I have heard from any system.  Is there a limit to how good this can get?

 

Obviously these cables take some time to burn in and settle down, I don't know if the improvement has peaked or will it continue to improve as the hours roll up.  I can't wait until Friday evening to find out.

Does the soundstage also extend to the listening position, and even behind it with suitable material  ?

A good test for this is "Moth to a Flame-Olivia Newton John" where a simulated Moth does an anti clockwise sweep of the whole room if your gear is good enough.

[beerandmusic]

On 6/5/2018 at 4:17 PM, lmitche said:

 

 

I have never heard music reproduced like this before. Some combination of the new cable plant, and the latest Hqplayer version, ISO Regen and lps-1s has put things entirely over the top.

 

 

 

what is your entire system configuration (especially the network cable)?

[paulkouhan]

Hi,

 

After 1 big hour of work, I finnaly have my 5 supra cat 8 power cables !

 

The aviator plug has the shield connected to the ground. So I think it is a true Faraday cage.

 

I suggest the use of a good stripping plier,

Like a Facom 793936

 

I did not have time yet try them...

[sligolad]

Too many projects at the moment but I finally received the CAT 8 Patchkabel 2000Mhz 1 metre from Germany, took a few weeks to get here!

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/282850879626?ul_noapp=true

 

Anyway worth the wait as it has jumped to top of the pile for all the cables tested so far, have not had a lot of time listening but as soon as I put it in I could hear the improvement.

It is the most rigid of all the cables tested so far and I did not think to order 2 at the time so I could cut one open.

 

Going to convert all DC lines in a Meitner MA1 DAC to the IBRA CAT 7 cables at 1 metre to see how they work.

3D printing some tubes to hold the cables in a coiled container for space saving and will post once the experiment is done.

 

Already converted the Meitner to a SD Card player direct into the digital high speed differential drivers and made a big improvement in listening to redbook files, using SLC SD Cards.

SD Card Player

[manishex]

10 minutes ago, sligolad said:

Too many projects at the moment but I finally received the CAT 8 Patchkabel 2000Mhz 1 metre from Germany, took a few weeks to get here!

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/282850879626?ul_noapp=true

 

Anyway worth the wait as it has jumped to top of the pile for all the cables tested so far, have not had a lot of time listening but as soon as I put it in I could hear the improvement.

It is the most rigid of all the cables tested so far and I did not think to order 2 at the time so I could cut one open.

 

Going to convert all DC lines in a Meitner MA1 DAC to the IBRA CAT 7 cables at 1 metre to see how they work.

3D printing some tubes to hold the cables in a coiled container for space saving and will post once the experiment is done.

 

Already converted the Meitner to a SD Card player direct into the digital high speed differential drivers and made a big improvement in listening to redbook files, using SLC SD Cards.

SD Card Player

I felt those German cat 8 cables were highly detailed but too cold for my liking, what length did you order? Maybe it's the case I needed a longer length as I got the 25cm one. 

 

That's an interesting sd card player, is it only for the meitner? How does it connect? 

[Quadman]

12 hours ago, fas42 said:

there have been moments when I've realised that there is even more on tap, when enough of the setup is peaking simultaneously. If you can sustain the SQ you describe indefinitely, congrats!!

 Yes I too have found there is always more to wring out the system, but if it stayed as it is now I would be very happy.  Perhaps the Gotham will further improve, but this stays in for a few weeks to let ear/brain memorize the sound and while I finish some other projects.

 

11 hours ago, sandyk said:

Does the soundstage also extend to the listening position, and even behind it with suitable material  ?

I didn't try specifically the Q sound effect, but I will try the song you suggest, In the past with when I played a Deep Forest track where the sound circles, yes the sound can come forward of the speakers.  Normal 2 channel recordings tho everything is behind the plane of the speakers.

 

6 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

what is your entire system configuration (especially the network cable)?

I do not use network cables, the router is located 2 floors above me and the house is not wired for ethernet, so I use 5 Ghz wi-fi.  Configuration of this is Ryzen 1800x PC with externally powered SLC SSD (S11 7V-LT3045 6V-LT3045 5V cat 8 cable to a star quad JSSG shield cable to SSD), Dac-up2 USB port to custom made 6" silver USB cable, Regen powered by 7.5V belleson LPSU, 1.5M wire world starlight (the red one) USB cable to iso regen with USPCB to T+A Dac8 DSD, Isoregen powered by s11 at 7V with 2 lt3045 boards stepping down to 5V, full cat 8 DC cables.  powering the IR at 5V bypasses the Texas instruments regulators inside the IR and improves it sound further.  Music source is Roon/Tidal or internal 5200RPM surveillance HDD.

[tapatrick]

1 hour ago, sligolad said:

Already converted the Meitner to a SD Card player direct into the digital high speed differential drivers and made a big improvement in listening to redbook files, using SLC SD Cards.

SD Card Player

Thx @sligolad I finally ordered one of those SD card players and its on its way..

[rickca]

This product will soon be de rigeur in any serious audio PC.  

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12908/lian-li-launches-strimer-rgb-psu-cable

 

[Abtr]

22 hours ago, mansr said:

If the current flowed in opposite directions, sure. In this case (PoE), the current flows the same direction through both wires of a pair, the return being a different pair.

Just for my understanding, doesn't the 'corkscrew rule' indicate that if two wires are twisted in opposite direction then current in the same direction will generate opposing magnetic fields in both twisted 'coils' that will (partially) cancel each other out? The same corkscrew rule would then suggests attenuation of AC (noise) in a twisted pair, even if it's connected to one side of the DC power supply, the return being a different pair. And if the resulting AC impedance is (much) higher than DC impedance, each twisted pair would be a (HF) noise filter.

 

Sorry for repeating myself, just trying to understand what's happening here. It's difficult to believe that the SQ improvement as described in this thread is merely the result of proper shielding and dielectrics.. 

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, Abtr said:

Just for my understanding, doesn't the 'corkscrew rule' indicate that if two wires are twisted in opposite direction then current in the same direction will generate opposing magnetic fields in both twisted 'coils' that will (partially) cancel each other out?

That would be the case with two counter-wound coils. In a twisted pair, both wires turn in the same direction.

[Cornan]

2 hours ago, rickca said:

This product will soon be de rigeur in any serious audio PC.  

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12908/lian-li-launches-strimer-rgb-psu-cable

 

Hmmm? Feels like unicorns and fluffy rainbow clouds are coming this way! ???

[AnotherSpin]

5 minutes ago, Cornan said:

Hmmm? Feels like unicorns and fluffy rainbow clouds are coming this way! ???

 

 

Anandtech - I like the name of the site, Anand means bliss...))

 

[Abtr]

40 minutes ago, mansr said:

That would be the case with two counter-wound coils. In a twisted pair, both wires turn in the same direction.

Yup. That was the error in my argument.  Thanks! So back to shielding and dielectrics..