Used market dead?

[GUTB]

So, I’m trying to sell gear. Lots of sellers, no buyers. Checking Superphonica things also look bleak, with featured sellers with only a few sales each (one of them has 0 sales). @ted_b has a preamp up there that hasn’t moved. On Audiogon, the audiomarts, etc, mostly you see heaps of old crap and/or not we’ll-known brands.

 

So what’s going on? If it’s not a famous brand name it just won’t sell? Is it just dead overall?

[Nordkapp]

It's been a hard to sell market for awhile now-unless you are willing to take big loss'.

[crenca]

1 minute ago, GUTB said:

So, I’m trying to sell gear. Lots of sellers, no buyers. Checking Superphonica things also look bleak, with featured sellers with only a few sales each (one of them has 0 sales). @ted_b has a preamp up there that hasn’t moved. On Audiogon, the audiomarts, etc, mostly you see heaps of old crap and/or not we’ll-known brands.

 

So what’s going on? If it’s not a famous brand name it just won’t sell? Is it just dead overall?

 

The signal to noise ratio is not good in the used market.  Mostly sellers are wanting too much in my opinion.  If it is not at or very close to 1/2 of retail, it is overpriced (with the occasional exception of course). Also, perhaps ebay is where the market has gone. I also have some (overpriced - make me an offer!) speakers on Superphonica...

[Nordkapp]

2 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

The signal to noise ratio is not good in the used market.  Mostly sellers are wanting too much in my opinion.  If it is not at or very close to 1/2 of retail, it is overpriced (with the occasional exception of course). Also, perhaps ebay is where the market has gone. I also have some (overpriced - make me an offer!) speakers on Superphonica...

Exactly. 1/3rd off of even 10/10 gear won't sell. Even the old stalwart brands resale is suffering. 

[rodrigaj]

Let's take an example.

 

PS Audio DirectStream DAC price is $6000 msrp. You can routinely find a dealer to sell one for $4000 brand new. Realistically, the used market expects to pay $2000 as a result. Add $400 for a BridgeII. $2.4K

 

Here is a cursory glance at Audiogon today: $5K, $4.7K, $4.3K

 

The used market is priced too high.

 

BTW, I know this because at the height of the Christmas buying season, I traded in a 4 year old W4SDSDse DAC and a 4 year old original Sonore Rendu for a brand new PS Audio DSD DAC w/ a BridgeII module and paid $3K.

 

As I said, the used market is priced too high and online dealers are offering warranted gear for slightly more than used.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, GUTB said:

So, I’m trying to sell gear. Lots of sellers, no buyers. Checking Superphonica things also look bleak, with featured sellers with only a few sales each (one of them has 0 sales). @ted_b has a preamp up there that hasn’t moved. On Audiogon, the audiomarts, etc, mostly you see heaps of old crap and/or not we’ll-known brands.

 

So what’s going on? If it’s not a famous brand name it just won’t sell? Is it just dead overall?

 

 Perhaps most of the prospective buyers have spent all their money on new Class D amplifiers ?

[Nordkapp]

More likely on massive over priced A.

[Norton]

Maybe the UK market is a bit different, writing off 20% tax to start with, but I generally look to pay about a third of retail s/h.  Once you are asking 50%, people start weighing up the real saving vs. new - there's the warranty to factor in to start with, plus if it's a year or two old there's likely somewhere selling new for a decent discount, or a better and cheaper new model or competitor.  As a seller, pretty much everything I've had on offer in last couple of years  has sold, but it can take a long time.  IME turntables, tonearms and anything Chord or Audionote sell quickly if reasonably priced.

[rodrigaj]

FWIW, one thing I have learned in dealing with the used market is never to respond to "wanted" ads. These are absolute time wasters.

[mrvco]

Superphonica would be far more compelling if there was a way to filter out the resale dealers and just see private sellers.

[esldude]

9 minutes ago, rodrigaj said:

FWIW, one thing I have learned in dealing with the used market is never to respond to "wanted" ads. These are absolute time wasters.

This times 1 million.  

 

Maybe there are some wanted ads that are worthwhile, but they are like finding a needle among the stars in the sky.  I suppose if those buyers were reasonable they would have already found their deal from sellers.  

[GUTB]

I almost bought a used Manhattan II. Dealer wanted $5k for it, which is way too high. I offered $4.5k which was still way too high but I wanted one at the time. Dealer responded with a $4.7k offer, and I just ignored it. Dealer eventually said that he’ll have some Brooklyns in stock if I can’t afford a Manhattan....lol, just keep it if you can’t bear letting it go for 25% off retail. 

[gmgraves]

2 hours ago, Nordkapp said:

It's been a hard to sell market for awhile now-unless you are willing to take big loss'.

That's one way to look at it. When I look on Audiogon, what I see is older equipment very much overpriced. For instance, somebody was selling (I should say, trying to sell) a Marantz 10B FM tuner for many thousands of dollars! I don't remember the exact figure. But here is an FM tuner, that was, to be sure, one of the world's two best tuners in it's day, but it was not without it's problems. It had a lousy stereo multiplex decoder that whistled if the FM station broadcasted SCA along with their stereo signal and at best had only about 20-25 dB of stereo separation. And, the oscilloscope CRTs were very poor and when (not if) they went bad, they couldn't be replaced because that tube is no longer available (and hasn't been since the 1970's). The 10B could be rewired to take another tube type, but all of those 2" CRTs are few and far between these days as none are being manufactured these days - anywhere. Finally, in the 10B's day, it was still possible to listen to high-quality FM. Today there is no place in the USA where decent sounding FM is available. It's all overly limited, highly compressed and most sounds simply lousy.

 

Are/were there better tuners? You bet. If you find an H.H. Scott 4310, it will perform rings around a 10B. It was so good that in the 60's the WQXR "network" used 4310s as relay's to link the network's loose confederation of stations together. I was listening at the southern end of the network (Washington D.C.) and after being relayed all the way from NYC, the live NY Philharmonic broadcasts sounded fine. If you find a Yamaha T85 tuner, it's solid state and will perform rings around either the Scott or the Marantz and for a lot less money than the Sequerra tuner from the mid '70's (another superb performer). 

 

Sorry for the digression. My main point is that people selling used audio equipment don't understand that used gear is simply not worth what most owners think it is. We're not talking old Ferraris here where a 40 year old car is worth hundreds of times what it cost new.   Old audio gear has aging capacitors, old fashioned transistors that aren't as good as modern ones and tubes that surely need replacing. I recently sold my Audio Research SP10. I was told to ask $4K to $4.5K for it. I didn't. I sold it for $1500 and it sold in an hour after it appeared on the site. People want to pay what they THINK is a bargain for used stuff. Price stuff in the stratosphere and you won't even get a nibble. 

[Kimo]

The used market is tough.  It has been this way for awhile.  When you do make a sale, you will probably have to work for it.   

There are a few exceptions.  Lower priced items tend to move faster and sell for a greater percentage.  Also, items that are tougher to get at a discount do relatively well.  Oppo and Benchmark, for example.

 

I have bought and sold plenty over the last 15 years.  I have been able to get some nice extended auditions this way.  I can't do it any longer.  Too costly nowadays.  Fortunately I am pretty well set with my Rogers, Alta, Aqua, Oppo, VPI set up.

 

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Nordkapp said:

More likely on massive over priced A.

Until Altronics (Au)  ran out of stock recently, anybody who didn't need to listen to music at ear bleeding levels, had a decent pair of 8 ohm speakers,  and knew which end of a soldering iron was which, could have constructed the Class A amplifier whose EXTREMELY low distortion measurements to 20KHZ were shown in the other thread, for <Au$1,000.

It was a complete kit with pre-punched and labelled metal work too.

[mozes]

I agree with the posts about the overpricing of used gear. Sellers often quote savings based on RRP, but in reality if you walk into an audio store and talk face to face with the dealer you immediately get 10-15% discount without even asking. Then you can negotiate and many times you can close a deal with 20-25% discount. So why bother with used gear that is priced at 70 or 80% of the RRP?

I have sold tons of stuff over the last few years, but I always ask make sure that the buyer gets a bargain. After all, I enjoyed my time with the unit I am selling and this is worth something. Always better to liquidate quickly amp especially with digital gear. Of course, a brand name helps and the best brand for the resale market is Naim based on my experience. 

 

[Ralf11]

the 10B is like buying a vintage Alfa

 

BTW, most NPR stations have good FM - we have 3 good public stations here

[beerandmusic]

14 hours ago, GUTB said:

So, I’m trying to sell gear. Lots of sellers, no buyers. Checking Superphonica things also look bleak, with featured sellers with only a few sales each (one of them has 0 sales). @ted_b has a preamp up there that hasn’t moved. On Audiogon, the audiomarts, etc, mostly you see heaps of old crap and/or not we’ll-known brands.

 

So what’s going on? If it’s not a famous brand name it just won’t sell? Is it just dead overall?

 

Used market is always good....you are just wanting too much money.

[mordante]

The new price of my integrated amp is about 8 to 9 euro. I consider 2k euro a decent 2nd hand price. That means if I were to trade it in I get somewhere between 1k en 1.3k for it.

[zilch0md]

The ratio of buyers to sellers is lower than it was just three or four years ago - in both the new and used markets.  We have a supply glut, especially for "luxury" items.  People need food and shelter, but they can live without audio hardware - at least they think they can.  :-)

 

 

[ShawnC]

So there's blue book value for these things and then there's ebay pricing which more sellers/retailers use for pricing.  This is a better guide to judge what people are paying for and how popular an item is.  If you were selling to a pawn shop for instance they'll find the ebay equivalent and offer you half that amount may be slightly more depending on condition and how quick they can sell it.  So an item that retailed for $1000  but usually sold for say $850 new, is offered on ebay for $500 (good condition maybe 1-2 years old).  So they'll offer you at best $300.  Often when dealing with digital electronics it's worse than this.  They're looking to resell the item at ebay's cost or more to make that profit.

 

When dealing with high end electronics, the value, like a car depreciates dramatically once it's been purchased brand new.  Many feel they deserve a decent resale value for there purchase but that's not reality.  Take for instance someone who knows nothing about high end audio they'll simply say how much was it new, now how old is it, here's the value.  Guitars are no different.  

 

Now there are some very well made products that haven't changed their design in decades and those hold there value a lot better than others Vandersteens, Magnepan, McIntosh ect... But some uber products like Wilson you find for sale like 70% off and there only 2-3 years old (overpriced to begin with).

 

[mav52]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

Used market is always good....you are just wanting too much money.

 

And what was ted selling ?

[Blackmorec]

I have sold a lot of gear over the years. Depending on what you’re selling generally defines which market you’ll best sell it in. For example, UK format power cables are only going to sell in the UK, whereas US format cables will sell in the US or Asia. Asians look at the prices in the US, so if you try to sell a US power cord at 50% of the artificially high UK price, you’ll get no takers in either the US or Asia. 

 

The British are usually looking for well known British makes, so Naim or Meridian is a lot easier to sell in the UK than say Krell. But in Europe, US brands are very popular so selling an item for 50% of its European price is generally OK. 

 

So to sell anything you need to identify which market its most likely to sell in, then set a price that’s competitive in that market.  Also you need to use a website that addresses your target markets.  The World generally checks Audiogon, Germans use Audio Markt

One of your biggest problems is shipping. Often the Internet shipping price is more than when you call the shipping company for a price....and insurance is astronomically expensive, so you need to quote shipping without insurance if you want to keep your price competitive. 

Finally, if you set your price too high, you won’t get any offers, but no-one likes to pay the advertised price....so when you reply to an enquiry you need to be clear that your advertised price is already very competitive and that you’re not looking to give the item away. 

 

Generally I’ve sold stuff for around 40 - 50% of RRP so its pretty important that you’ve had some good use from the item to justify the 50-60% hit.  Selling stuff as a bundle, for instance including shipping or adding cables is usually not the most economical way of selling something. 

 

 

[Panelhead]

4 hours ago, mordante said:

The new price of my integrated amp is about 8 to 9 euro. I consider 2k euro a decent 2nd hand price. That means if I were to trade it in I get somewhere between 1k en 1.3k for it.

  That integrated was a good investment. Should have purchased a case of them. 

  Most new gear is priced too high. So the used gear is also. 

  The reasonable priced new gear does not get a lot of love. 

[GUTB]

I’m browsing around for a good transport but no one wants to sell at a price that will move. If it’s 15 years old they may offer 50% off, but that’s it.