EtherREGEN: The long development thread. [Some Gen2 dev. pics and update starting on page 92.]

[MNG]

I’m very interested in this device. Would I be right in thinking that the best results will be achieved by having the EtherREGEN located close to the music system in order to minimise the travel of the Ethernet output cable to system. This as opposed to locating the EtherREGEN close to the router which, for me, is quite a distance away from my music system. 
 

Logic suggests that this should be the best way of arranging things, but it would mean that I’d need two devices because I am, again, assuming that the EtherREGEN may lend some improvement to streamed video/audio as well, so I’m inclined to get one for the movie room.

[Cable Monkey]

Putting it close to the final streamer is the right approach. 

[Sfine0]

How important is the quality of Ethernet cabling coming into the EtherREGEN Switch. I live in a 120 year old Victorian with active knob and tube electrical wiring and I have Cat5e in wall. Streaming CD quality music from Tidal sounds dull and lacking detail. Would upgrading to Cat7/Cat7a or Cat8 make an appreciable difference.

 

Aan aside, I have changed my current network switch from a Netgear giga bit device to an old Costco C2960 with significant improvement in sound quality.

[Sfine0]

I also have a question about up stream network switches. Dose the quality of intermediary switches and routers have an applicable effect on your switch. Would it be better to make a direct connection between a cable modem (in my case Verizon Fios ) and your switch. Does every additional switch and cable leg degradation the data getting to your switch?

 

[tomjtx]

1 hour ago, Sfine0 said:

How important is the quality of Ethernet cabling coming into the EtherREGEN Switch. I live in a 120 year old Victorian with active knob and tube electrical wiring and I have Cat5e in wall. Streaming CD quality music from Tidal sounds dull and lacking detail. Would upgrading to Cat7/Cat7a or Cat8 make an appreciable difference.

 

Aan aside, I have changed my current network switch from a Netgear giga bit device to an old Costco C2960 with significant improvement in sound quality.

If your amp etc. is plugged into knob and tube that is likely the reason your sound is suffering. I still have sone Knob and tube in my home but years ago I ran 2 dedicated lines for my stereo. The difference was quite significant. It gave the effect of doubling amp power and clean sound etc. Cost was 85.00 for materials(10guage romex, 40amp breakers and hospital plugs. My electrical engineer friend helped with install which was very easy.

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Sfine0 said:

Streaming CD quality music from Tidal sounds dull and lacking detail.

 

You might try Qobuz - seriously. I personally liked the sound quality better. How's your sound with local files (which I assume come through a system plugged into the same sort of wiring)?

[Sfine0]

Thanks for the response. 

I agree with you about the use of better power sourcing for audio equipment. I have 4 dedicated 20 amp outlets on 30 amp breakers connected via audio quality receptacles in my audio room. Each mono block amp is on its own circuit. My digital and analog equipment are on separate circuits . My network switch is on an circuit  with my preamp,  DAC and ultrarendu. I have assumed that better shielded Ethernet cabling would provide a cleaner signal ( I.e. digital data on an Ethernet  analog  transport).  I have also assumed that having multiple switches (of varying manufacturing and quality) in a network would degrade the digital signal. And that direct connections between your device and my Verizon Fios cable modem/router would yield the best results. 
 

if I am mistaken in any of this I will cancel my electricians visit and simply wait for the delivery of you new switch.

thanks

steve

[Sfine0]

to jud,

I use a 2011 Mac Mini Running Audirvana using DLNA  communicating with an Ultrarendu. Both the Mac mini and ultrarendu are connected to an old Cisco c2060 switch. My local music (10000 CDs) are on a usb Drobo disk array and internal SSD drive. Music data is primarily ripped cd quality but I have a fair amount of DSD64 and PCM 192 and 96. If I were to measure the various sound from different sources I would say the best I get is from SSD storage, then USB DROBO storage and then TIDAL streaming.  Given that I use an Ultrarendu all of my music data is streaming across an ethernet interface only the TIDAL runs thru my complete network.

thanks for your response

steve

[tims]

4 hours ago, Cable Monkey said:

Putting it close to the final streamer is the right approach. 

To replace an Ethernet cable between the EtherRegen and a music system Is there anything available like the Uptone 'USPCB A>B Adapter' that could replace an ethernet cable?

 

[Cable Monkey]

I don’t think that is necessary in the way it may be with USB. I use 1 metre patch cables with my existing switch. I do have much shorter ones but I am OK with a little physical distance between my audio kit and networking hardware.

[JohnSwenson]

The whole purpose of the EtherREGEN is to greatly reduce effects coming from the upstream system. So assuming you have the B port attached to the audio endpoint, don't worry about what is connected to the A side ports. Cables, switches, servers etc should all have very little impact (if any) on the sound quality. So don't worry about them.

 

Yes the cable from the B port to the endpoint might matter, but again don't worry about it. I'm using a dirt cheap no name 5 foot CAT5e cable between the EtherREGEN and the streamer and the improvement is phenomenal. I'm so enthralled with what I'm hearing now I'm not worrying about CAT7 or CAT8 etc.

 

Just get it IN the system however you can and LISTEN to music. After doing that for a couple months then maybe start looking into tweaks. You are going to find out that everything you knew about what makes a digital system better is now all turned around. Make sure you spend some significant time listening with just the EtherREGEN as the only change, and then if you still desire to tweak, throw out any previous concepts about what matters and slowly start trying things again.

 

John S.

[Nenon]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The whole purpose of the EtherREGEN is to greatly reduce effects coming from the upstream system. So assuming you have the B port attached to the audio endpoint, don't worry about what is connected to the A side ports. Cables, switches, servers etc should all have very little impact (if any) on the sound quality. So don't worry about them.

 

Yes the cable from the B port to the endpoint might matter, but again don't worry about it. I'm using a dirt cheap no name 5 foot CAT5e cable between the EtherREGEN and the streamer and the improvement is phenomenal. I'm so enthralled with what I'm hearing now I'm not worrying about CAT7 or CAT8 etc.

 

Just get it IN the system however you can and LISTEN to music. After doing that for a couple months then maybe start looking into tweaks. You are going to find out that everything you knew about what makes a digital system better is now all turned around. Make sure you spend some significant time listening with just the EtherREGEN as the only change, and then if you still desire to tweak, throw out any previous concepts about what matters and slowly start trying things again.

 

John S.

 

Nice leak :). I guess @JohnSwenson is not considered a 'beta tester' and there is no ban from @Superdad to share his experience :). 

Well, that make those of us who placed an order even more excited and impatient now 

 

[HeeBroG]

5 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

The whole purpose of the EtherREGEN is to greatly reduce effects coming from the upstream system. So assuming you have the B port attached to the audio endpoint, don't worry about what is connected to the A side ports. Cables, switches, servers etc should all have very little impact (if any) on the sound quality. So don't worry about them.

 

Yes the cable from the B port to the endpoint might matter, but again don't worry about it. I'm using a dirt cheap no name 5 foot CAT5e cable between the EtherREGEN and the streamer and the improvement is phenomenal. I'm so enthralled with what I'm hearing now I'm not worrying about CAT7 or CAT8 etc.

 

Just get it IN the system however you can and LISTEN to music. After doing that for a couple months then maybe start looking into tweaks. You are going to find out that everything you knew about what makes a digital system better is now all turned around. Make sure you spend some significant time listening with just the EtherREGEN as the only change, and then if you still desire to tweak, throw out any previous concepts about what matters and slowly start trying things again.

 

John S.

 

Hi John,

 

Are you allowed/able to share details of your current server/endpoint/software setup?

 

Cheers,

 

G

[miguelito]

On 11/1/2019 at 9:40 AM, jos said:

You could be right, but the Rossini master clock for instance is helping the Rossini DAC to better this DAC. The EtherREGEN is doing that too, so you can compare the outcomes, IMO, although devices are different.

I think the point is the dCS clocks have nothing to do with upstream and everything to do with a low-phase-noise, synchronized DAC chain. Yes, you could compare the two in the same way you could compare this with a power cable, interconnect, or just about anything else. 

[Blake]

I understand the goal is that physical components upstream of the ER should matter less or not matter at all (cables, exotic power supplies, etc).   

 

However, I am curious whether music player/OS software upstream of the ER will still matter to the same degree it does now, for example, Audirvana, Euphony, Roon, etc. or Tidal vs Qobuz, etc.  

 

My hunch is that software will still matter, but will it be to the same degree as now?  Will software changes be more obvious or less obvious in terms of improving sound quality?  I look forward to experimenting myself as well as reading reports of others.    

[charlesphoto]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

I understand the goal is that physical components upstream of the ER should matter less or not matter at all (cables, exotic power supplies, etc).   

 

However, I am curious whether music player/OS software upstream of the ER will still matter to the same degree it does now, for example, Audirvana, Euphony, Roon, etc. or Tidal vs Qobuz, etc.  

 

My hunch is that software will still matter, but will it be to the same degree as now?  Will software changes be more obvious or less obvious in terms of improving sound quality?  I look forward to experimenting myself as well as reading reports of others.    

 

We've heard this one before... it may not matter as much, but imo the etherRegen will take what's there and clean it up, but if it's missing in the first place... For example if the server, cables etc coming before it deplete the bass, which is often the case, how does the etherRegen magically add that back in? I'm sure it will be an amazing piece of gear, but I'd be wary of the one thing does it all approach (would be real sweet if that was the case!).

 

Now that the first three runs sold out in minutes, where are the beta listening impressions! 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Blake said:

I understand the goal is that physical components upstream of the ER should matter less or not matter at all (cables, exotic power supplies, etc).   

 

However, I am curious whether music player/OS software upstream of the ER will still matter to the same degree it does now, for example, Audirvana, Euphony, Roon, etc. or Tidal vs Qobuz, etc.  

 

My hunch is that software will still matter, but will it be to the same degree as now?  Will software changes be more obvious or less obvious in terms of improving sound quality?  I look forward to experimenting myself as well as reading reports of others.    

 

I would suppose one aspect of player software that might conceivably continue to make a difference would be filtering options.

 

Aspects of player software designed to try to put less noise into the DAC's USB input, to the extent they were effective, have likely already been made less important by streaming setups through low-noise mini-computers.

 

Regarding streaming services like Qobuz vs. Tidal, notionally you would suppose that to the extent the EtherREGEN helps the system do a better job of presenting what's in the recording, better recordings should matter a bit more, and for me that's Qobuz.

[Superdad]

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

We've heard this one before... it may not matter as much, but imo the etherRegen will take what's there and clean it up, but if it's missing in the first place... For example if the server, cables etc coming before it deplete the bass, which is often the case, how does the etherRegen magically add that back in?

 

Right. And we have been clear about this.  It is our expectation that some things that mattered before--such as SMPS warts on upstream routers (which generate copious leakage) as well as leakage coming in on Ethernet cables, perhaps from servers with SMPS--won't matter at all or near as much.  And some upstream clocking variations--which for packet-data interfaces really are not so much about jitter per-se as they are about the perturbations that jitter can cause on the ground-plane and in the power networks of the chips--will also be reduced.

 

But of course other things will still be heard.  We'll all get to find out what still matters and how much. Yet we believe that the EtherREGEN's unique ADIM (Active Differential Isolation Moat and clocking) circuitry may change the balance of priorities in a lot of systems.

 

8 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

Now that the first three runs sold out in minutes, where are the beta listening impressions! 

 

The beta users can post their impressions once the first run begins shipping next week. There is even a new thread for Listening Impressions.

 

Speaking of shipping:  We are kitting and packing the first 90 units--shipping to dealers AfterDark., Audiostore/VortexBox UK, and Meta Wave this week.

 

[JohnSwenson]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto said:

 

We've heard this one before... it may not matter as much, but imo the etherRegen will take what's there and clean it up, but if it's missing in the first place... For example if the server, cables etc coming before it deplete the bass, which is often the case, how does the etherRegen magically add that back in? I'm sure it will be an amazing piece of gear, but I'd be wary of the one thing does it all approach (would be real sweet if that was the case!).

 

Now that the first three runs sold out in minutes, where are the beta listening impressions! 

This is most likely a misconception concerning things like "depleting bass". Some things in software actually change the bits such as filtering, upsampling, converting to DSD etc, these things the EtherREGEN does not affect at all, it does not change the bits in any way.

 

You mention things like digital cables etc depleting bass, this has nothing to do with bits being changed. It is all about some form of noise (usually either voltage noise or phase noise) hitching a ride along with the digital data (the bits) and getting into the DAC. This causes very small distortions in the analog signal which somehow cause the human perceptual system to hear "depleted bass". It really isn't depleted bass, if you measure the actual audio signal the frequency response doesn't change, but those specific small distortions cause your perceptual system to hear it that way. (there is way more to this than just bass). THAT is what the EtherREGEN is all about. Getting rid of those noise components before they reach your DAC.

 

Note: this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the data in the bits, it is all about various types of noise carried along with the bits, let me repeat it has absolutely NOTHING to do with the bits! The DATA stays the the same.

 

I'm writing a paper right now on how all this works so I'm not going to go into details here.

 

I understand this can be hard to grasp, you think something upstream of the DAC caused the bass to go away so how can anything down stream put it back? Because the upstream component DIDN'T get rid of the bass, the bass is still there in the bits, what it DID was add some noise which upon reaching the DAC causes small distortions in the audio which your perceptual system interprets as the bass going away.

 

John S.

[thyname]

13 minutes ago, JohnSwenson said:

I'm writing a paper right now on how all this works so I'm not going to go into details here.

 

I am very curious to read that paper when it is published. And possibly share it over at Audio Science forums (AmirM), if someone is brave enough to do so and not get slaughtered 🙂 They keep measuring cheap $50 china DACs and find no differences with the $10K SOTA DACs. So they all should sound the same 😉

[PYP]

2 minutes ago, thyname said:

 

 Audio Science forums (AmirM) keep measuring cheap $50 china DACs and find no differences with the $10K SOTA DACs. So they all should sound the same 😉

 

Not to go off topic, but if any one DAC measures the same when you get it and two months later, then that tells us the measurements don't account for the everything since they don't measure the change in sound over time of any DAC as it breaks/settles in.   No matter the price of the DAC, I've always found they "mature" in their sound over time, some dramatically so.   

[Puma Cat]

1 hour ago, thyname said:

 

I am very curious to read that paper when it is published. And possibly share it over at Audio Science forums (AmirM), if someone is brave enough to do so and not get slaughtered 🙂 They keep measuring cheap $50 china DACs and find no differences with the $10K SOTA DACs. So they all should sound the same 😉

Don't get me started on those guys. Even within the strict confines of their "schtick", they don't know how to conduct a scientifically controlled experiment in the context of "real-world" use, and furthermore, they've not done a formal MSA (measurement systems analysis) prior to the measurements they take. Without an MSA in place before taking measurements, there is no way to know that their measurement system has sufficient precision to observe real differences from noise (all data sets contain noise, some contain signals) and make statistically valid inferences, if there are differences. For example, they don't know what their smallest effective measurement increment is, they don't know what the "% Contribution" of their MS is, and they don't know anything about the "part" (i.e., DAC) x Operator interaction. 

[kennyb123]

4 minutes ago, Puma Cat said:

Even within the strict confines of their "schtick", they don't know how to conduct a scientifically controlled experiment in the context of "real-world" use, and furthermore, they've not done a formal MSA (measurement systems analysis) prior to the measurements they take. Without an MSA in place before taking measurements, there is no way to know that their measurement system has sufficient precision to observe real differences from noise (all data sets contain noise, some contain signals) and make statistically valid inferences, if there are differences. For example, they don't know what their smallest effective measurement increment is, they don't know what the "% Contribution" of their MS is, and they don't know anything about the "part" (i.e., DAC) x Operator interaction. 

 

So very well said.  Over the years I had tried to make the same point about their measurement having sufficient precision.  I couldn't explain it as precisely as you did.

 

Sorry for going off topic here Alex.  I just thought the above was an excellent point.

 

[charlesphoto]

@JohnSwenson Thanks for the astute explanation, once again. Makes more sense now. I went down the opticalModule route so the etherRegen's not for me (yet at least) even if one could get one.  

[EVOLVIST]

2 hours ago, JohnSwenson said:

I understand this can be hard to grasp, you think something upstream of the DAC caused the bass to go away so how can anything down stream put it back? Because the upstream component DIDN'T get rid of the bass, the bass is still there in the bits, what it DID was add some noise which upon reaching the DAC causes small distortions in the audio which your perceptual system interprets as the bass going away.

 

You know, I don't know if you're getting into psychoacoustics here, but if so, that's right up my alley.