MQA is Vaporware

[The Computer Audiophile]

Let’s all hope Square purchases Tidal, and has a bad reaction to MQA. Jack doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who like proprietary quasi-DRM solutions when there’s already free open formats that can do everything anyone needs. 
 

 

Square Has Discussed Acquiring Jay-Z’s Tidal Service

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-24/square-is-said-to-have-discussed-acquiring-jay-z-s-tidal-service

 

 

 

[BigWilliam]

After reading all posts to about page 100, then skimming most of the rest of the pages over the last day or so...I am shocked at how ridiculously captured audiophile press are. Especially high end. So shocked i felt compelled to post this.

 

Why do any of you take them seriously? Or anything in this industry really? This has got to be the slimiest industry I have participated in. And I consume pornography, your average porn producer lies less.

 

Thousands upon thousands of perfect lossless files stored in the format they were made on a 100 dollar HD and they want to move to some other standard to make upsampling easier? ?????????????????

 

These boomers don't even understand why CD player is not superior to a rip of that CD (i'm 30)

 

The obvious analogous group, videophile press, are like the squeakiest clean people I have ever seen next to the snakes in this thread.

 

If this wasn't just rich guys playing around I'd say the state needs to step in here and end all this insanity. This is beyond buyer beware. This is fraud, and this thread is teh most obvious embodiment of it.

 

I don't know what the fuck stereophile is. But people my god people do not link to it, do not discuss it openly, make up a nickname so they get nothing from you. They were rightly smug because in the end their job is to sell ads or subs or whatever they do there. And if promoting MQA drives interest in their site well they're winning and you're proving their decision correct

 

No for profit businesses job is to tell you the truth. THat applies to youtube reviewers as well. They only need to tell the truth as far as they will be held accountable by CONSUMERS. Not people. Just whining at them while promoting their business isn't gonna do it.

 

edit - and of course marry christmas, even teh shills.

 

 

[Elad Repooc]

Quote

Why do any of you take them seriously? Or anything in this industry really? This has got to be the slimiest industry I have participated in. And I consume pornography, your average porn producer lies less.

 

I completely agree, and what an astute statement. As far as why people take certain folks seriously, the majority of it is psychological. Psychology is actually fundamental to MQA.

 

Quote

These boomers don't even understand why CD player is not superior to a rip of that CD (i'm 30)

 

When I used to work in sales, and most of us were already well on board with this concept, there was a well known and highly respected industry representative who chided the sales people during a training for not walking around with a CD case full of "approved" demo material, and insisting that we play only CDs or vinyl on the primary reference system in the showroom. His reason? Purely psychological - the physical media are props to aid in the sale and works better than standing there with a phone or iPad to select music - or even worse, you might actually inadvertently allow the client to play their own music and "lose control of the demo".

 

When some of us pointed out that our computer based solutions were in almost every instance superior to CD playback and would provide a higher performance and more compelling demonstration to begin with, he just shrugged it off and aloofly began to treat us as if we didn't have any clue how to sell high performance audio products.

 

Quote

If this wasn't just rich guys playing around I'd say the state needs to step in here and end all this insanity. This is beyond buyer beware. This is fraud, and this thread is teh most obvious embodiment of it.

 

The unfortunate thing is that many of these companies have ties to private capital who are more or less enabled by the state in order to exist. You might (or might not) be surprised how many audio manufacturers (most good ones in fact) grew directly out of the military industrial complex.

 

Caveat Emptor is indeed a mantra to hold dear when navigating the waters of high-end audio!

 

Quote

I don't know what the fuck stereophile is. But people my god people do not link to it, do not discuss it openly, make up a nickname so they get nothing from you. They were rightly smug because in the end their job is to sell ads or subs or whatever they do there. And if promoting MQA drives interest in their site well they're winning and you're proving their decision correct

 

I'm quite surprised by now at the tenacity of publications like Stereophile, Absolute Sound, etc. to push the MQA narrative. The cat is well out of the bag by now, we live in the age of the internet after all and if you're rich enough to afford the initial MQA offerings in the high end community (these reviewers certainly oftentimes are), you can afford a subscription to the AES and download the white papers for yourself and learn about the craft. 

For folks to claim MQA is high performance when I've personally experienced 16/44.1kHz files of the same content outperform the MQA content using the same "full unfold" MQA DAC in rooms and systems of various types and with others unanimously agreeing they heard the same exact thing - the MQA files sound worse, nearly every time (content is somewhat dependent), and then expect me to trust their ears, to me shows how completely incompetent many of these people are at evaluating performance. I'm sorry, you need to go back to school first before touting some new, redundant, and completely unnecessary format.

 

[Currawong]

On 12/20/2020 at 2:39 PM, GUTB said:

Interesting information. Can you explain what a short filter is and how it impacts time domain performance?

 

Archimago posted the output vs. original of music processed via various filters here: http://archimago.blogspot.com/2018/01/musings-more-fun-with-digital-filters.html

You can actually see the shift. 

 

On 12/21/2020 at 6:06 AM, FredericV said:

I found this post about the typical workflow, at that time (2017) they just sended the files to MQA, no preview in the studio how MQA would change the sound in realtime was available, and they had to wait for MQA to receive the encoded version. So the studio's do not control the encoding parameters.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpost.php?p=12717728&postcount=1075

 

So this mastering tool kit was never released by MQA? Or are there actual users of this tool?

 

This matches what I was told by a friend who does some recording and mastering. Basically, they send music to MQA for the treatment and get it back. 

 

What I'd like to do is analyse a file they get back, where the original was recorded into an ADC that doesn't have any high-frequency noise, like the one used by 2L. In your favourite FR output image from one of the 2L recordings, they have to cut off the output at around 48kHz above that it's all ADC noise. 

[opus101]

8 hours ago, BigWilliam said:

If this wasn't just rich guys playing around I'd say the state needs to step in here and end all this insanity.

 

The state is the rich guys.

[daverich4]

21 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let’s all hope Square purchases Tidal, and has a bad reaction to MQA. Jack doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who like proprietary quasi-DRM solutions when there’s already free open formats that can do everything anyone needs. 
 

 

Square Has Discussed Acquiring Jay-Z’s Tidal Service

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-24/square-is-said-to-have-discussed-acquiring-jay-z-s-tidal-service

 

 

 

When I posted the EXACT same sentiment about Tim Cook your response was Warner’s was going to tell him what he was going to take and he would have to like it or lump it. I’m pretty sure Tim is as big a dog as Jack is so what would be different in this case? 

[Thuaveta]

5 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

I’m pretty sure Tim is as big a dog as Jack is so what would be different in this case? 

 

Well one of the two is the guy under whose leadership the biggest, most resourced company in the world failed to deliver on its vanity project - an induction charger.

[daverich4]

11 minutes ago, Thuaveta said:

 

Well one of the two is the guy under whose leadership the biggest, most resourced company in the world failed to deliver on its vanity project - an induction charger.

When Tim Cook took over Apple it was worth just under $400 Billion and now it’s only worth $2 Trillion+. What a failure. Couldn’t lead his way out of a paper bag. 

[Thuaveta]

49 minutes ago, daverich4 said:

Couldn’t lead his way out of a paper bag. 

 

The previous guy took the same company from 5 to 375 billion in the same timeframe (so the last 9 years of his tenure), so comparatively, maybe it isn't completely unfair to cast a little bit of doubt. Plus, I don't see him as the type to incentivise WMG suits to reconsider their file format choices by flinging AirPower prototypes at their faces. Do you ?

[firedog]

22 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Let’s all hope Square purchases Tidal, and has a bad reaction to MQA. Jack doesn’t seem like the kind of guy who like proprietary quasi-DRM solutions when there’s already free open formats that can do everything anyone needs. 
 

 

Square Has Discussed Acquiring Jay-Z’s Tidal Service

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-24/square-is-said-to-have-discussed-acquiring-jay-z-s-tidal-service

 

 

 

What's interesting in that article is that the author assumes the average reader doesn't know what Tidal is. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 hours ago, daverich4 said:

When I posted the EXACT same sentiment about Tim Cook your response was Warner’s was going to tell him what he was going to take and he would have to like it or lump it. I’m pretty sure Tim is as big a dog as Jack is so what would be different in this case? 

Dude, you’re looking for an argument and conflict or vindication for some reason. Please read what I said. It had nothing to do with whatever point your trying to score against me. 

[daverich4]

6 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Dude, you’re looking for an argument and conflict or vindication for some reason. Please read what I said. It had nothing to do with whatever point your trying to score against me. 

I’m not sure how you came up with the idea that I was trying to score some point against you. In previous posts you said Tim Cook would be forced to accept MQA. You said Jack Dorsey would not. I asked you why the difference between the two. No points to be scored. Not looking for vindication. It’s been clear for some time in your response to posts of mine that I’ve pissed you off somehow but that certainly hasn’t been my intention. 

 

[BigWilliam]

2 hours ago, daverich4 said:

When Tim Cook took over Apple it was worth just under $400 Billion and now it’s only worth $2 Trillion+. What a failure. Couldn’t lead his way out of a paper bag. 

 

I mean beyond managing to control his greed and only cash in on dongles instead of user data...

 

He did well for apple

 

But what has changed with apple since Jobs died that required any real leadership?

 

He's just running off job's choices. And monetizing dongles, he really know how to sell peripherals

[firedog]

1 hour ago, daverich4 said:

I’m not sure how you came up with the idea that I was trying to score some point against you. In previous posts you said Tim Cook would be forced to accept MQA. You said Jack Dorsey would not. I asked you why the difference between the two. No points to be scored. Not looking for vindication. It’s been clear for some time in your response to posts of mine that I’ve pissed you off somehow but that certainly hasn’t been my intention. 

 

Cook is a vendor of what the labels supply. 

If Dorsey buys Tidal, he could end the tie to MQA.

That doesn't preclude the labels deciding to make only MQA available at some point, but in the short term it hurts the MQA foothold in the market and makes it's entry more difficult. It appears the labels and MQA are trying for a soft ramp up of MQA exclusivity and a "gradual takeover". So far Tidal is the only real vehicle MQA has found for market entry. Without a streaming partner the labels might decide MQA is a loser and witout streaming, there's really no reason for MQA to exist. Big sales are not going to come from discs or CD level resolution/hi res downloads. 

 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

Does anybody have any idea how much the audio press is still clinging to MQA? A search on Stereophile.com brings up so many gratuitous mentions, and embarrassing declarations of love, it boggles the mind. The press is where MQA seems to have any relevance.

 

Yes, the usual suspects, the charlatan JVS, Atkinson and his go to canned "more space around the instruments" line, and the rest of the tone deaf MQA marketers, er writers. And we also get the feigned disappointment when a digital product does not "do MQA", no blue light for comfort and good feelings. No cute logo.

 

Funny to note MQA got most of it's push and coverage after 2016, the era of Anti-Science, Anti-Fact, Alternative Realities, and charlatanism.

 

 

 

 

[GUTB]

Setting aside the question of MQA's efficacy, I think it's pretty obvious it's here to stay. The labels appear to have embraced it as the de-jour high-res delivery method for their catalogues. Outside of MQA, the only options are going to be the usual players: audiophile labels and whatever master-quality albums the main labels feel like releasing. MQA isn't going to impact the audiophile labels, they're still going to be releasing very high-res audio in all consumer formats even if they add MQA to their catalogues. So really nothing's going to change.

[AudioDoctor]

On 12/25/2020 at 8:41 AM, firedog said:

What's interesting in that article is that the author assumes the average reader doesn't know what Tidal is. 

I’d  bet the average reader doesn’t. 

[BigWilliam]

5 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

Does anybody have any idea how much the audio press is still clinging to MQA? A search on Stereophile.com brings up so many gratuitous mentions, and embarrassing declarations of love, it boggles the mind. The press is where MQA seems to have any relevance.

 

Yes, the usual suspects, the charlatan JVS, Atkinson and his go to canned "more space around the instruments" line, and the rest of the tone deaf MQA marketers, er writers. And we also get the feigned disappointment when a digital product does not "do MQA", no blue light for comfort and good feelings. No cute logo.

 

Funny to note MQA got most of it's push and coverage after 2016, the era of Anti-Science, Anti-Fact, Alternative Realities, and charlatanism.

 

 

 

 

 

I see people asking about MQA dacs  all over this forum....?

 

People openly admitting they use tidal with an excuse of "discovery' even tho spotify has better discovery......

 

There is a german guy asking about MQA dacs and instead of "don't buy this you traitor" people are giving him suggestions.

 

People need to sneer at anyone who even mentions Tidal use.

 

 

 

[Jud]

On 12/25/2020 at 10:10 AM, firedog said:

Cook is a vendor of what the labels supply.

At the moment that’s the role Apple is content to play, and perhaps that will continue indefinitely. Apple has a huge supply of hi res (they ask the labels to send them this for conversion to AAC), and enough money to buy the rights to it (or the labels themselves) if they wanted. At the moment they don’t see it as being to their financial advantage, and perhaps it never will be. But if that situation would ever change, it would be quite easy for Apple to take advantage of it.

[Currawong]

56 minutes ago, Jud said:

At the moment that’s the role Apple is content to play, and perhaps that will continue indefinitely. Apple has a huge supply of hi res (they ask the labels to send them this for conversion to AAC), and enough money to buy the rights to it (or the labels themselves) if they wanted. At the moment they don’t see it as being to their financial advantage, and perhaps it never will be. But if that situation would ever change, it would be quite easy for Apple to take advantage of it.

 

Apple cares about simplicity and reliability over just about everything, to a fault almost. Consumers aren't clamouring for lossless Apple Music, and it doesn't benefit them to introduce it, so they wont. 

 

Back to MQA, they have been targeting Chinese manufacturers who will put absolutely anything in their products if it'll help them sell one or two more. Thus, we have the likes of the portable player manufacturers who are advertising... wait for it: MQA 8x and MQA 16x support!  Yes, exactly what you think.

[DuckToller]

15 hours ago, BigWilliam said:

People openly admitting they use tidal with an excuse of "discovery' even tho spotify has better discovery......

 

There is a german guy asking about MQA dacs and instead of "don't buy this you traitor" people are giving him suggestions.

 

People need to sneer at anyone who even mentions Tidal use.

 

@BigWilliam

I find it more interesting - and it may be part of my German upbringing - that someone starts out already with his seventh posting here to give the impression (to me) of being divisive and xenophobic because "people" (hello IT Freak!) in this forum IMHO don't need to sneer at others/anyone if they are perhaps uneducated about some topics or have a different views on a subject.
AFAIK, the responses to the OP were about streaming devices and not so much about codec or streaming service preferences.
If the OP your pointing at wishes to discuss his personal view about his perceived advantages of MQA he will get clear and detailed information about that quickly (just ask GUTB).
What is you precise intention here, BigWilliam ? Calling names and sneering on others, really ???
Stay safe & sound, Tom

 

[AudioDoctor]

14 minutes ago, BigWilliam said:

 

As a german american i can assure you i don't care what you think. You come from a geriatric society

 

MQA is blatantly tempting labels with DRM dacs.

 

Anyone supporting this is part of the problem, you've done your tests. Sell that crap and move on. To do anything more is to be a foolish consumer

 

I don't know why you would trust Americans to control a proprietary format like this and support people funding it. But let me assure you if they did get us all to get MQA dacs. They would tighten down everything, and we would be lucky to play our own music without ads

 

And of course i'm xenophobic, i'm American. It doesn't have quite the same connotation as some one from a blood and soil nation being xenophobic.

 

Jeez, it's no surprise why the rest of the world thinks Americans are rude and obnoxious.

[AudioDoctor]

38 minutes ago, BigWilliam said:

 

He's trying to virtue signal as a german to me.

 

He's probably never even dated a woman of a different color. Absurd

 

Newsflash most Americans are a lot more liberal than most Germans. Liberal...Not progressive

 

Surprise the german doesn't mind more rules.

 

100% of that is unnecessary. This is an audio forum not a forum for your obnoxious, rude, and hateful xenophobia. Did you get lost on your way to Parler?

[MikeyFresh]

23 hours ago, GUTB said:

Setting aside the question of MQA's efficacy, I think it's pretty obvious it's here to stay.

Except it isn't, in fact the entire current business model of streaming is not guaranteed to stay, those that report financials clearly lose huge money every single quarter, including Spotify who has the largest paid subscriber base. While the labels love it, they are the only ones making money, the streaming services do not and the artists aren't exactly pleased either. That appears unsustainable in its current form.

Given MQA's only current delivery method is the money losing Tidal (unless you are counting the stillborn MQA-CD which GUTB might be), I'd say there is no proof at all that it's here to stay.

 

On 12/26/2020 at 8:13 PM, GUTB said:

Outside of MQA, the only options are going to be the usual players: audiophile labels

 

So the GUTB crystal ball sees download services such as HDtracks being forced to shut down due to MQA?

 

On 12/26/2020 at 8:13 PM, GUTB said:

MQA isn't going to impact the audiophile labels, they're still going to be releasing very high-res audio in all consumer formats even if they add MQA to their catalogues

That same GUTB crystal ball indicates the labels would continue to approve hi-rez releases "in all formats"? Not if their greedy accountant/lawyer top execs have their way. What are the formats (plural) you refer to? If they killed the standard Redbook streams in favor of lossy MQA-CD, what makes you think they would continue releasing actual Redbook CD media at all?

 

On 12/26/2020 at 8:13 PM, GUTB said:

So really nothing's going to change.

 

You just parroted the stance of the main stream audio press, including right here in this very thread several years ago. That is of course exactly what the labels and MQA want everyone to think, while they slowly quietly eliminate consumer choice.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@BigWilliam if you want to talk about race, xenophobia, etc... this isn’t the place.