Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, BigWilliam said: You need to do a better job of taking away the off topic comments and not just randomly nuking them There is a point some one brought up apple, that comment should have been removed. You have to start form the original off topic reply. Not decide after others are committed. And now you're confused why people are referencing it? And my comments had nothing to do with Apple? I'll say it again, conviviality and snake oil are interconnected. Your demure demeanor is why people get away with selling all this ridiculous snake oil. And not just you, everyone worried about condescension and sneering. Absurd Apple, laugh at them MQA, laugh at tehm That's how you identify snake oil. If you're unwilling to do your part socially don't be surprised when people exhibit behavior that is not good for the group. Like buying into MQA dacs* At least buying into apple's ecosystem isn't for the most part hurting the rest of us. You’ve been here a week and are telling me how to do my job and telling others, who’ve been part of this community for many years, how to act. It isn’t going to end well at this pace. mocenigo, Currawong and botrytis 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
R1200CL Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 If it hasn’t been posted before, please read. http://fairhedon.com/2017/11/05/an-interview-with-mastering-engineer-brian-lucey/ Link to comment
GUTB Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 20 hours ago, firedog said: You are really being funny now, even though I know you don't mean to be. I suggest you view the video of Chris' attempt to make a balanced presentation about MQA in front of an audience. The MQA people and their audio press lackeys simply interrupted, shouted him down, pounded tables, engaged in ad-hominem attacks instead of countering what was being presented. That's what you do when you have an economic motive to protect a product that is based on lies, and can't stand up to any kind of factual analysis/presentation. If you have real confidence in what you are selling, you don't mind the truth. Bob & Co. have been asked for five years in various places to factually counter the technical claims of people such as Archimago, Miska, Mansr, etc. - and have never done so. There's a reason for that - they can't. Auralic - they discovered that an actual MQA license meant MQA interference in the workings of their equipment/ecosystem, and decided to forgo the pleasure. They didn't want MQA dictating to them their customers listening experience. Wow, thanks for posting this. I heard about this event and missed it I didn't know there was a recording. It's funny as soon as Archimago's slide comes up they immediately try to get Chris to admit that Archimago is "just a guy on the Internet". I'll watch the rest of this later. Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 12 minutes ago, GUTB said: Wow, thanks for posting this. I heard about this event and missed it I didn't know there was a recording. It's funny as soon as Archimago's slide comes up they immediately try to get Chris to admit that Archimago is "just a guy on the Internet". I'll watch the rest of this later. It's full of classic moves from people who have everything to hide. If @Archimago says 2+2=4, and every person on earth with math skills can reproduce his work, it matters not who he is or what he does. To the MQA team it matters big time because they need to attack people's character rather than the facts. They can't fight based on facts because the facts aren't on their side. WAM, botrytis, KeenObserver and 7 others 7 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post MikeyFresh Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 46 minutes ago, GUTB said: It's funny as soon as Archimago's slide comes up they immediately try to get Chris to admit that Archimago is "just a guy on the Internet". Funny? That's not funny, that's a highly defensive and unprofessional reaction, and one that attempts to change the narrative while simultaneously refusing to address the slide presented. A panicked attempt to alter the topic of conversation. They showed their true colors right there. Admit? You make that sound like there was some sort of guilt or wrongdoing. I think you mean they stated something rather obvious, and tried to attach inappropriate conjecture or innuendo as to the actual validity or conclusions that can be drawn. As Chris stated above, notice how they can't or won't address the actual content being presented, no use of actual rebuttal or straight out refuting the verifiable facts. Jbara's behavior is particularly pathetic, he's supposed to be a fucking CEO publicly representing a brand/product? Any CEO I've ever met or observed came far better prepared, and far more informed and thus able to represent their brand or product's efficacy. That's why CEOs tend to be smart and well compensated, they are able to think on the fly and remain professional and composed, grace under pressure. Evidently Jbara's job function is much different, and really just amounts to leveraging his past ties to Warner Music Group. GUTB your playbook with regard to this thread is not dissimilar to that of Lee Scoggins, all this time later, the same BS is getting regurgitated all over again. Even though you wanna be "influencers" have displayed a very weak game, the same themes seem to resurface and the same "change the subject" game plan employed despite the past abject failure of such. The Computer Audiophile, Currawong, Teresa and 3 others 6 Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
R1200CL Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: To the MQA team it matters big time because they need to attack people's character rather than the facts Next time, you shouldn’t leave those seats next to you empty 😀 And you should “attack” with more statements etc. And starting with saying Bob was invited as well given the slides upfront. That should hopefully stop such ambushing. BTW, 3 females in audience. Not bad. Was you on your way to loose your temper, since you left if I can ask ? It must have been frustrating. Link to comment
R1200CL Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 45 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said: Jbara's behavior is particularly pathetic, he's supposed to be a fucking CEO publicly representing a brand/product? Was he in the audience? Link to comment
Popular Post GUTB Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 42 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said: Funny? That's not funny, that's a highly defensive and unprofessional reaction, and one that attempts to change the narrative while simultaneously refusing to address the slide presented. A panicked attempt to alter the topic of conversation. They showed their true colors right there. Admit? You make that sound like there was some sort of guilt or wrongdoing. I think you mean they stated something rather obvious, and tried to attach inappropriate conjecture or innuendo as to the actual validity or conclusions that can be drawn. As Chris stated above, notice how they can't or won't address the actual content being presented, no use of actual rebuttal or straight out refuting the verifiable facts. Jbara's behavior is particularly pathetic, he's supposed to be a fucking CEO publicly representing a brand/product? Any CEO I've ever met or observed came far better prepared, and far more informed and thus able to represent their brand or product's efficacy. That's why CEOs tend to be smart and well compensated, they are able to think on the fly and remain professional and composed, grace under pressure. Evidently Jbara's job function is much different, and really just amounts to leveraging his past ties to Warner Music Group. GUTB your playbook with regard to this thread is not dissimilar to that of Lee Scoggins, all this time later, the same BS is getting regurgitated all over again. Even though you wanna be "influencers" have displayed a very weak game, the same themes seem to resurface and the same "change the subject" game plan employed despite the past abject failure of such. Well, Archimago is in fact a guy on the Internet just like you and I. They were attacking his credentials and thereby throw his findings into doubt. It was in fact aggressive and unprofessional. If some guy on the Internet puts out some analysis, the correct strategy is to debunk the work by exposing process flaws and/or comparing it with your own analysis. Then the two parties can go back and forth and generally a conclusion can be reached even if one side refuses to admit defeat. botrytis and MikeyFresh 2 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 6 minutes ago, R1200CL said: And you should “attack” with more statements etc. And starting with saying Bob was invited as well given the slides upfront. That should hopefully stop such ambushing. Nothing stops their ambushing. It's how shady people like Mike Jbara and Ken Forsythe act when they have stuff to hide and their paychecks depend on their deception. 6 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Was you on your way to loose your temper, since you left if I can ask ? I was annoyed, but not close to losing my temper. I would never stoop to MQA's level. 6 minutes ago, R1200CL said: It must have been frustrating. Absolutely. Especially when I invited the MQA team to the presentation as soon as I knew I was going to give it. 5 minutes ago, R1200CL said: Was he in the audience? Yes. He was toward the back making absurd comments like a petulant child. botrytis, MikeyFresh, AudioDoctor and 2 others 5 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post MikeyFresh Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 34 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Yes. He was toward the back making absurd comments like a petulant child. With LS seated cozily right near him. Jbara gets on the mic and rudely interrupts at the 15:36 mark with the bullshit accusation of Chris not being "transparent". Oddly he parrots Ken Forsythe at that point, as if KF knows jack shit or had made some cogent point just prior. That's a CEO? botrytis, KeenObserver and The Computer Audiophile 3 Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
Popular Post Archimago Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 4 hours ago, GUTB said: Well, Archimago is in fact a guy on the Internet just like you and I. They were attacking his credentials and thereby throw his findings into doubt. It was in fact aggressive and unprofessional. If some guy on the Internet puts out some analysis, the correct strategy is to debunk the work by exposing process flaws and/or comparing it with your own analysis. Then the two parties can go back and forth and generally a conclusion can be reached even if one side refuses to admit defeat. Yes @GUTB. Agree. That is how it's supposed to work with back and forth discussions; claims and counterclaims with evidence. I make no pretensions as being more than "a guy on the Internet". This is about ideas. We talk, and share in good faith, which when this started was my hope from MQA. As one who is not part of the audiophile industry or even the general audio industry, my interest is as a hobbyist trying to experience, enjoy, understand, and perhaps in the process teach what I have discovered. Having some background in computer technology even if this is not my career, clearly from the start, MQA's rhetoric was highly suspect once you put together the bits and pieces of what they claimed to be achieving recognizing the limits of the data system used, the kinds of hardware they were building upon (low power stuff like the Meridian Explorer 2 and later Dragonfly), and the claims made about "lossy"/"time-domain" accuracy/etc... The pieces were simply incompatible with any mind-blowing "birth of a new world" type technology claimed in the media and in MQA/Bob Stuart's own interviews! Indeed as time went on and I investigated further the limitations of the decoded analog output and then with @mansr's work in reverse engineering of the code (dithering options, the table of impulse responses used in "rendering"), guys like @FredericV and his discovery of flawed "authentication", the pieces clearly came together to truly demonstrate just how limited this whole "scheme" was from the perspective of actual audio fidelity achievable. While the Internet has brought many problems for sure, from my personal experience, it has also brought the "guy on the Internet" opportunities to discuss and learn from others in unprecedented ways. Opposition to MQA within audiophile "high-end" manufacturers is deeper than many are aware. The companies like Schiit and Linn who are openly opposed to MQA are not the only ones who appreciate the problems with it. There are others who are not open to share their views but know that MQA is not what it's claiming to be but just the same have looked into the technology, signed NDA's, etc... Businesses and industries have to, at some level, look out for the interests of the "common good". I trust this is self-evident and not conspiratorial whatsoever especially in a small audiophile niche! If MQA makes money with streaming companies and record labels backing them, every audio company would want part of the action. As a company that makes DACs for example, it makes strategic sense to stay silent, be openly agnostic, and watch if there's any enthusiasm and uptake among music lovers. I think for me the greatest disappointment as an audiophile consumer is the lack of independent journalism in the audiophile world. Folks willing to ask tough questions and demand evidence. Other than @The Computer Audiophile (willing to stick his neck out for the RMAF 2018 presentation, published my article) and Doug Schneider at Soundstage! whom I've had the pleasure to chat with a couple years back, I think the audiophile press otherwise lacks courage to speak truth on behalf of consumers. If there is one thing that needs to change ASAP, it is these "old guard" audiophile magazines - their actual purpose, and their loyalties. Companies do what they can to make money although to the extent MQA makes claims is IMO dishonest. But without a truly independent press willing to demand evidence and on their own initiative, willing to objectively evaluate claims, who else do audiophiles have on their side to explore potential issues and weed out snake oil except the "guys on the Internet"? opus101, MikeyFresh, Currawong and 16 others 16 2 1 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post Thuaveta Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 10 minutes ago, Archimago said: I think for me the greatest disappointment as an audiophile consumer is the lack of independent journalism in the audiophile world. With all due respect, lack of journalism. period. Amen to all the rest, of course. The painfully biting irony of the MQA disinformation campaign is of course that Stuart's career was bankrolled by Boston Globe money... botrytis and MikeyFresh 2 Link to comment
Archimago Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 14 minutes ago, Thuaveta said: With all due respect, lack of journalism. period. Amen to all the rest, of course. The painfully biting irony of the MQA disinformation campaign is of course that Stuart's career was bankrolled by Boston Globe money... I sit corrected 😉. Happy Holidays @Thuaveta. Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 24 minutes ago, BigWilliam said: Doesn't take an audiophile to see you basically randomly nuking comments when you don't like them as bad moderation. If i can't follow your rules there is an issue. Been a lot of internet forums. This thread length is impressive. But i suspect it could be an extra hundred pages with the way you have moderated me. Minimum Wow, it's all about you, isn't it? Since you don't know the forum, maybe a small dose of humility might help? FYI-Chris tends not to moderate at all, unless someone is seriously out of line, hijacks a thread, or turns a thread onto something like politics, that doesn't belong here. There's no "random nuking". So far all you've shown is that you are more interested in pointless arguing than you are in audio. Maybe tone it down and try to participate in something relevant to the topics at hand. Thuaveta, botrytis, MikeyFresh and 3 others 6 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 Over the past 847 pages there have been "influencers" who have brought out irrelevant, inconsistent, and often false claims about MQA. And when they were carefully analyzed by sound scientific analysis and reverse engineering, those doing the analysis and reporting it were accused of being "uncivil". When discussions about MQA were touching too close to the truth, there was always somebody there to say: "Look, there's Bigfoot". There has been a smell to MQA from day one. maxijazz, MikeyFresh and askat1988 3 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 30, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 30, 2020 I watched the RMAF video again. I feel like I need to take a shower. The Computer Audiophile and bambadoo 2 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
jparvio Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 On 12/30/2020 at 10:47 AM, Archimago said: ... I think for me the greatest disappointment as an audiophile consumer is the lack of independent journalism in the audiophile world. Folks willing to ask tough questions and demand evidence. ... This is not the whole truth. Unfortunately many consumers do not bother to question the salesmen "truth" even if (a hifi Journalist) try to steer them towards the available facts. I know this from experience. Audiophile community should also understand that most of the consumers (or even hifi hobbyists) are not after the most authentic sound available. Many settle for what they personally consider as "good or likeable sound" whatever that is for them. Can we really blame consumers for adopting something like MQA after decades of Ogg, MP3 etc.? No, I am not giving up but th whole World cannot be saved. It is what it is. Teresa and maxijazz 1 1 Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, jparvio said: This is not the whole truth. Unfortunately many consumers do not bother to question the salesmen "truth" even if (a hifi Journalist) try to steer them towards the available facts. I know this from experience. Audiophile community should also understand that most of the consumers (or even hifi hobbyists) are not after the most authentic sound available. Many settle for what they personally consider as "good or likeable sound" whatever that is for them. Can we really blame consumers for adopting something like MQA after decades of Ogg, MP3 etc.? No, I am not giving up but th whole World cannot be saved. It is what it is. If MQA was marketed as an "perceptully lossless" alternative to Ogg, mp3 etc., we would welcome it as an improvement. But when the false marketing and intention to replace actual lossless are taken into account, it simply isn't something acceptable. UkPhil, MikeyFresh, The Computer Audiophile and 3 others 6 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2020 2 hours ago, jparvio said: Many settle for what they personally consider as "good or likeable sound" whatever that is for them. That's what it's all about. Getting something that pleases you. 2 hours ago, jparvio said: Can we really blame consumers for adopting something like MQA after decades of Ogg, MP3 etc.? The consumers listening to OGG and MP3 for decades are still the consumers listening to OGG and MP3 today. These consumers know nothing about MQA and have no interest in it, and haven't adopted it. The only people who actually know about MQA are audiophiles. Teresa, UkPhil and botrytis 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
jparvio Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 1 hour ago, firedog said: If MQA was marketed as an "perceptully lossless" alternative to Ogg, mp3 etc., we would welcome it as an improvement. But when the false marketing and intention to replace actual lossless are taken into account, it simply isn't something acceptable. And I totally agree. But even amongst audiophiles there are people welcoming MQA. People who should know better. Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2020 MP3 and Vorbis are now open standards. You do not have to pay royalties to produce or play them. MQA would have you pay royalties at each stage of the implementation. If MQA became the distribution standard, then every music consumer would be paying for it. Teresa and botrytis 2 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2020 MQA and the studios backing them would like to implement MQA and have it be the sole method of producing and distributing music. The people backing MQA would not have gone through the money and effort that they have for the past six years unless they thought their there was a huge payday in it in the future. The business model for MQA is to become the sole distribution method for music. The music consumer would suffer the consequences and would pay for it. MQA wants to force feed the music consumer contaminated brandy. botrytis and Teresa 1 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
jparvio Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, KeenObserver said: MP3 and Vorbis are now open standards. You do not have to pay royalties to produce or play them. MQA would have you pay royalties at each stage of the implementation. If MQA became the distribution standard, then every music consumer would be paying for it. I know this, You know this. About 99,9% of the people who consume music one way or the other don´t understand why they should be aware of MQA´s hidden agenda. And as I mentioned earlier I get the feeling most of them don´t even care and that saddens me. Teresa 1 Jussi Arvio Contributing Editor Hifimaailma Magazine Link to comment
KeenObserver Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, jparvio said: I know this, You know this. About 99,9% of the people who consume music one way or the other don´t understand why they should be aware of MQA´s hidden agenda. And as I mentioned earlier I get the feeling most of them don´t even care and that saddens me. We can at least let those that are affected by this know the truth. If they ignore it, then it is on them. We cannot just sit back and let MQA spew their BS and implement a system that damages music and makes the music consumer pay for it. I, for one, will never have MQA music or equipment. And I, for one, will never buy any new Warner music. Teresa 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
Popular Post KeenObserver Posted December 31, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 31, 2020 I continue to buy non MQA music from studios that don't produce MQA. If there is something from Warner Music Group that I wish to have, I will buy a used CD or I will forgo it. If MQA ever becomes the only music available, I will no longer buy new music. I have enough music to keep me happy for the rest of my life. ssh and Teresa 1 1 Boycott Warner Boycott Tidal Boycott Roon Boycott Lenbrook Link to comment
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