The Computer Audiophile Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 4 minutes ago, botrytis said: (PDF) Production and Characterization of Laccase from Botrytis cinerea 61-34 (researchgate.net) Here is what a REAL Scientific paper looks like. One that was peer reviewed and one that I wrote, I might add. 😁 I love it! Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 One will read the bottom of the paper link, I wrote, and because of the fact that the research was funded by a government grant, it has to say it is an advertisement per regulations regarding Scientific Journals. This is why I say the AES journal is an Industry mouthpiece journal, that type of disclosure does not exist. lucretius, MikeyFresh and The Computer Audiophile 3 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
BigWilliam Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 7 hours ago, R1200CL said: He did manage to put an end to SACD according to this. So what would be a clever way to get rid of MQA ? (if it’s a goal). Other than legislation I can't really think of a clever way.... Just simply do not buy the MQA dacs, they will see no one in the market can even use the format. It can never be a real threat without most people having MQA hardware to decode Link to comment
R1200CL Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 6 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Giving them more space to talk is only beneficial to them, not consumers. I was more thinking where people with skills like Bruno, Achimago, Miska, and several others presented their findings to Bob &Co, and had a long discussion in front of audience and/or video. If such an happening ever would or could take place, would Bob accept ? (I assume the other participants would). Chris, I wouldn’t be surprised if you know quite much more about MQA, than you so far have reviled in public. (I haven’t read the whole tread). Auralic and Schiit both said no to MQA. I still remember when Auralic announced their first MQA unfold in a streamer at CES? And later was forced to remove that option and FB statement. I still hope the true behind that story comes out. https://community.roonlabs.com/t/withdrawal-of-mqa-support/6730 https://darko.audio/2016/01/auralic-to-add-mqa-roonready-to-aries-at-ces-2016/ Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 hour ago, R1200CL said: I was more thinking where people with skills like Bruno, Achimago, Miska, and several others presented their findings to Bob &Co, and had a long discussion in front of audience and/or video. If such an happening ever would or could take place, would Bob accept ? (I assume the other participants would). Chris, I wouldn’t be surprised if you know quite much more about MQA, than you so far have reviled in public. (I haven’t read the whole tread). Auralic and Schiit both said no to MQA. I still remember when Auralic announced their first MQA unfold in a streamer at CES? And later was forced to remove that option and FB statement. I still hope the true behind that story comes out. https://community.roonlabs.com/t/withdrawal-of-mqa-support/6730 https://darko.audio/2016/01/auralic-to-add-mqa-roonready-to-aries-at-ces-2016/ You are really being funny now, even though I know you don't mean to be. I suggest you view the video of Chris' attempt to make a balanced presentation about MQA in front of an audience. The MQA people and their audio press lackeys simply interrupted, shouted him down, pounded tables, engaged in ad-hominem attacks instead of countering what was being presented. That's what you do when you have an economic motive to protect a product that is based on lies, and can't stand up to any kind of factual analysis/presentation. If you have real confidence in what you are selling, you don't mind the truth. Bob & Co. have been asked for five years in various places to factually counter the technical claims of people such as Archimago, Miska, Mansr, etc. - and have never done so. There's a reason for that - they can't. Auralic - they discovered that an actual MQA license meant MQA interference in the workings of their equipment/ecosystem, and decided to forgo the pleasure. They didn't want MQA dictating to them their customers listening experience. Confused, Currawong, Niktech and 7 others 8 1 1 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
R1200CL Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 minute ago, firedog said: The MQA people and their audio press lackeys screamed and yelled and didn't let him present his slide show. I haven’t seen the video. (Yet). Seems like it was religious tendencies 😀 4 minutes ago, firedog said: Bob & Co. have been asked for five years in various places to factually counter the technical claims of people such as Archimago, Miska, etc. - and have never done so. As I was afraid of. 6 minutes ago, firedog said: They didn't want MQA dictating to them their customers listening experience. I have got confirmation from Theta, that MQA requires them to do HW changes in their DAC’s. So I guess it’s not likely to happen there either. Does anyone see any benefits in MAQ for streaming movies? Link to comment
Archimago Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 3 hours ago, botrytis said: One will read the bottom of the paper link, I wrote, and because of the fact that the research was funded by a government grant, it has to say it is an advertisement per regulations regarding Scientific Journals. This is why I say the AES journal is an Industry mouthpiece journal, that type of disclosure does not exist. Good point @botrytis. There is that... 47 minutes ago, R1200CL said: I haven’t seen the video. (Yet). Seems like it was religious tendencies 😀 That's pretty much it. You need "faith" to believe in stuff like it being "lossless" and that there is "vastly improved time-domain accuracy", or that the playback "presents music exactly the way the artist intended". With absolutely nothing to show for these claims except unusual graphs and testimonies from true believers. Quote As I was afraid of. I have got confirmation from Theta, that MQA requires them to do HW changes in their DAC’s. So I guess it’s not likely to happen there either. Correct. At the very least they will need access to the hardware maker's firmware to embed their decoding algorithm and settings for the playback filter. Quote Does anyone see any benefits in MAQ for streaming movies? Nope. These days E-AC3 with Atmos sounds fantastic at a relatively low bitrate (~768kbps) and is already used widely. If you want true lossless, stick with DTS-HDMA or Dolby TrueHD; both can also embed 3D objects as dts:X or Atmos. MQA is nothing more than an algorithm that tries to encode pseudo-quasi-24/96 content into a 24/48 PCM package (or pseudo-quasi-24/88.2 into 24/44.1) . Remember that the data stream will then need to be losslessly compressed with something like FLAC for lower bitrate. The fact that MQA is not multichannel and as far as I have seen has never been pitched as such also simply makes no sense for movies. This recent Wowow stream for example of MQA is 2-channel binaural only. MikeyFresh 1 Archimago's Musings: A "more objective" take for the Rational Audiophile. Beyond mere fidelity, into immersion and realism. R.I.P. MQA 2014-2023: Hyped product thanks to uneducated, uncritical advocates & captured press. Link to comment
Confused Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 16 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Here is a nice example of how clueless the press is. Michael Fremer, from Analog Planet- "The TIDAL MQA streamed 96/24 version was like another recording altogether. The piano sounded more like a piano made of wood. The church space on the live performance was well-separated from the instrument and it was overall far more coherent and satisfying. I don’t understand those who are MQA resistant especially those who view it as a “plot” to control their recorded musical existence. And, not surprising (to me at least), the extremely well mastered and flawlessly pressed vinyl record sounded very much like the MQA 96/24 stream. https://www.analogplanet.com/content/lang-lang—-classical-music-superstar-critics-love-hate-hate-delivers-his-goldberg-variations Not all of the press is quite so clueless. A couple of examples linked below. I would describe these as more "matter of fact" than particularly opinionated regarding MQA. Or to put it another way, I see no shrilling here ..... Wolfgang Muthspiel : Rising Grace (mqa) | Hi-Fi News Christian Weidner : Every Hour Of The Light And Dark (mqa) | Hi-Fi News DuckToller 1 Windows 11 PC, Roon, HQPlayer, Focus Fidelity convolutions, iFi Zen Stream, Paul Hynes SR4, Mutec REF10, Mutec MC3+USB, Devialet 1000Pro, KEF Blade. Plus Pro-Ject Signature 12 TT for playing my 'legacy' vinyl collection. Desktop system; RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Meze Empyrean headphones. Link to comment
Popular Post mocenigo Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 17 hours ago, BigWilliam said: Dongles, chargers, and earpods? Oh yea you'll pad those numbers. That's his major contribution. Those are the biggest earners he came up with Mac, app store, iphone, ipad all the same. We're going green so we will no longer include chargers, genius. The pods alone my god. Apple's earnings for Q1 2020: $55.96 billion: iPhone $12.72 billion: Services $7.16 billion: Mac $10.01 billion: Wearables, Home, and Accessories $5.98 billion: iPad I would say that the major contribution is properly driving the services and keeping the iPhone competitive in a quite crowded market with little space for premium devices. For instance making security a market differentiator (ask yourself why security experts like to break iPhones AND also choose iPhones as personal devices) and making the Apple Watch a training assistant and health device (Jobs and Ive wanted it to be only a luxury item). Compare the average prices of wearables and other accessories and you will easily get where the bulk of those $10.01B comes from. There is only one thing more annoying than apple fan boys: apple bashers. DuckToller and AudioDoctor 2 Link to comment
lucretius Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 8 hours ago, botrytis said: One will read the bottom of the paper link, I wrote, and because of the fact that the research was funded by a government grant, it has to say it is an advertisement per regulations regarding Scientific Journals. This is why I say the AES journal is an Industry mouthpiece journal, that type of disclosure does not exist. Up until now, I hadn't realized your screen name is that of a fungus. mQa is dead! Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 42 minutes ago, lucretius said: Up until now, I hadn't realized your screen name is that of a fungus. Well, my wife does say I am a FUN-GUY 🤣 Also, working with fungi, as a research topic (it was really a biochemistry topic) they do grow on you. The Computer Audiophile, DuckToller, MikeyFresh and 2 others 5 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post MarkusBarkus Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 "...working with fungi, as a research topic (it was really a biochemistry topic) they do grow on you." At least it's a "noble rot." 😉 DuckToller and kumakuma 2 I'm MarkusBarkus and I approve this post. Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 7 hours ago, Confused said: Not all of the press is quite so clueless. A couple of examples linked below. I would describe these as more "matter of fact" than particularly opinionated regarding MQA. Or to put it another way, I see no shrilling here ..... Wolfgang Muthspiel : Rising Grace (mqa) | Hi-Fi News Christian Weidner : Every Hour Of The Light And Dark (mqa) | Hi-Fi News Yes, Please note that Paul Miller was the first print journalist to cast doubts on MQA and in fact the first to print measurements that exposed MQA as lossy, and to show aliasing and other artifacts. He also, if I am not mistaken, was to first to show that MQA is limited to 24/96. Link to comment
UkPhil Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 3 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Yes, Please note that Paul Miller was the first print journalist to cast doubts on MQA and in fact the first to print measurements that exposed MQA as lossy, and to show aliasing and other artifacts. He also, if I am not mistaken, was to first to show that MQA is limited to 24/96. Or even 17/96 if you wanted to just look at musical information 😜 Ishmael Slapowitz 1 Link to comment
Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 26 minutes ago, UkPhil said: Or even 17/96 if you wanted to just look at musical information 😜 Yes correct. I meant what the purported resolution is. Link to comment
Popular Post MikeyFresh Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 25 minutes ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said: Yes correct. I meant what the purported resolution is. Yes but that's just the 2nd unfold, after the 3rd unfold a revolution in digital audio occurs, and subsequently, whole new worlds are birthed. I'm told BS is working on a new version of origami in which a 4th unfold transports you to an alternate universe, one in which you hear music with no air causing any time smear. botrytis and Ishmael Slapowitz 2 Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
Popular Post Ishmael Slapowitz Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 44 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said: Yes but that's just the 2nd unfold, after the 3rd unfold a revolution in digital audio occurs, and subsequently, whole new worlds are birthed. I'm told BS is working on a new version of origami in which a 4th unfold transports you to an alternate universe, one in which you hear music with no air causing any time smear. Imagine how crest fallen I was when I found out I was listening to ordinary, lossless, time smeared 24/192 FLAC.... I am so glad Stuart, Harley, and Atkinson Edjoomacated me and showed me the light. Viva La Revolucion! 🤑 botrytis and MikeyFresh 2 Link to comment
BigWilliam Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 4 hours ago, mocenigo said: Apple's earnings for Q1 2020: $55.96 billion: iPhone $12.72 billion: Services $7.16 billion: Mac $10.01 billion: Wearables, Home, and Accessories $5.98 billion: iPad I would say that the major contribution is properly driving the services and keeping the iPhone competitive in a quite crowded market with little space for premium devices. For instance making security a market differentiator (ask yourself why security experts like to break iPhones AND also choose iPhones as personal devices) and making the Apple Watch a training assistant and health device (Jobs and Ive wanted it to be only a luxury item). Compare the average prices of wearables and other accessories and you will easily get where the bulk of those $10.01B comes from. There is only one thing more annoying than apple fan boys: apple bashers. Yea they dominated that market before he died Nothing has changed Security experts don't choose iphones, tech savvy people do not like the apple ecosystem, what are you talking about? Security experts at your business chose iphones because that's what their bosses wanted. And that's waht they're familiar with. I worked at apple as a tier 1 work at home rep for a couple years when i was younger. I get them. He hasn't changed a thing but their thick skin in selling the peripherals. maxijazz and Currawong 2 Link to comment
Popular Post UkPhil Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 42 minutes ago, MikeyFresh said: Yes but that's just the 2nd unfold, after the 3rd unfold a revolution in digital audio occurs, and subsequently, whole new worlds are birthed. I'm told BS is working on a new version of origami in which a 4th unfold transports you to an alternate universe, one in which you hear music with no air causing any time smear. Come 2021 the 5th unfold could arrive whereby you could be consumed by a black hole to arrive at another non smeared timeline were you can get the original first master tape fingerprinted to suit MQA filters 🤪🤪 MikeyFresh, BigWilliam, botrytis and 1 other 1 3 Link to comment
Popular Post MikeyFresh Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 hour ago, UkPhil said: Come 2021 the 5th unfold could arrive whereby you could be consumed by a black hole to arrive at another non smeared timeline were you can get the original first master tape fingerprinted to suit MQA filters 🤪🤪 Yes, I'm told late 2021 for that 5th unfold, as it includes a time travel aspect that will allow MQA to retrieve the first gen. master tapes lost in the Universal Music Group archive fire of 2008! All of the UMG artists have signed on for the 5th unfold, as it was never their intention for those tapes to have perished, and now MQA will authenticate them on a make-good basis in a huge win for consumers. In a related announcement, Meridian revealed plans for MQA-5U DAC availability in Q4 of '21. The ADC manufacturers have declined comment, fueling speculation they too are on board. mocenigo, UkPhil, botrytis and 2 others 5 Boycott HDtracks Boycott Lenbrook Boycott Warner Music Group Link to comment
Popular Post mocenigo Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 2 hours ago, BigWilliam said: Yea they dominated that market before he died Which one of the markets I mentioned? Some are new, Quote Nothing has changed If you say so... Quote Security experts don't choose iphones, tech savvy people do not like the apple ecosystem, what are you talking about? You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You have totally no clue at all. I am a tech savvy person. And I chose to stay in the apple ecosystem. In fact, if you enter an Arm or a Google office, companies which are mostly about development and computer architecture, you'll see that the laptops are at least 50% apple ones. By "Security experts" I do not mean the low level IT folks that have to plug and unplug cables and bring the monitors to the engineers and architects. I refer to the *researchers* (of which I also am one) that analyse security problems, break systems to notify the vendors in order for the latter to fix their product in the hope the bad guys have not done the same in the meantime, and to prevent them doing the same, as well as find mitigations. A large chunk of them sometimes even openly declare "I do not want an apple main computer but my phone is an iPhone because of higher security wrt the rest". This is a fact. Go to a security conference or a cryptography conference and look at what computers you see. "tech savvy people do not like the apple ecosystem" is one of the most ridiculous pieces of BS one can ever think of writing. True, many tech savvy people loathe apple, but generalising the way you did is quite a bit of an exaggeration. Quote Security experts at your business chose iphones because that's what their bosses wanted. And that's waht they're familiar with. Actually, we can choose between a PC or a Mac, between an android company phone or an iPhone, and again. Quote I worked at apple as a tier 1 work at home rep for a couple years when i was younger. I get them. Ok, Apple asks their employees to use Apple devices. Duh. It is not forced everywhere at all companies. In high tech companies where there is a choice of platforms (when there is none, it is usually a windows machine and an android phone) a sizeable chunk of the technical staff (not talking about design and marketing!) chooses apple products. And another big chunk a windows machine or a linux one. Quote He hasn't changed a thing but their thick skin in selling the peripherals. Apple has always sold peripherals. I understand you are a disgruntled former employee. Cool down and remember: apple bashers are the only category even more annoying than apple fanboys. To quote Tim Cook, people often mistake innovation for change. Innovation can be something that you do not even see. Like the M1. Like the extremely strong microarchitectural push in their CPU designs. The Apple Watch and the AirPods contain a lot of innovation. And these are in the top 10 "The Verge" list of most innovative products of the last decade. Content is a new push, and they have all the hw/sw ecosystem to support it. I stop here, because we are off topic. But I friendly recommend you to stop as well, you are making a fool of yourself. DuckToller, AudioDoctor and MikeyFresh 3 Link to comment
BigWilliam Posted December 29, 2020 Share Posted December 29, 2020 1 hour ago, mocenigo said: Which one of the markets I mentioned? Some are new, If you say so... You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You have totally no clue at all. I am a tech savvy person. And I chose to stay in the apple ecosystem. In fact, if you enter an Arm or a Google office, companies which are mostly about development and computer architecture, you'll see that the laptops are at least 50% apple ones. By "Security experts" I do not mean the low level IT folks that have to plug and unplug cables and bring the monitors to the engineers and architects. I refer to the *researchers* (of which I also am one) that analyse security problems, break systems to notify the vendors in order for the latter to fix their product in the hope the bad guys have not done the same in the meantime, and to prevent them doing the same, as well as find mitigations. A large chunk of them sometimes even openly declare "I do not want an apple main computer but my phone is an iPhone because of higher security wrt the rest". This is a fact. Go to a security conference or a cryptography conference and look at what computers you see. "tech savvy people do not like the apple ecosystem" is one of the most ridiculous pieces of BS one can ever think of writing. True, many tech savvy people loathe apple, but generalising the way you did is quite a bit of an exaggeration. Actually, we can choose between a PC or a Mac, between an android company phone or an iPhone, and again. Ok, Apple asks their employees to use Apple devices. Duh. It is not forced everywhere at all companies. In high tech companies where there is a choice of platforms (when there is none, it is usually a windows machine and an android phone) a sizeable chunk of the technical staff (not talking about design and marketing!) chooses apple products. And another big chunk a windows machine or a linux one. Apple has always sold peripherals. I understand you are a disgruntled former employee. Cool down and remember: apple bashers are the only category even more annoying than apple fanboys. To quote Tim Cook, people often mistake innovation for change. Innovation can be something that you do not even see. Like the M1. Like the extremely strong microarchitectural push in their CPU designs. The Apple Watch and the AirPods contain a lot of innovation. And these are in the top 10 "The Verge" list of most innovative products of the last decade. Content is a new push, and they have all the hw/sw ecosystem to support it. I stop here, because we are off topic. But I friendly recommend you to stop as well, you are making a fool of yourself. They have stopped bundling chargers What are you insane/ lol. They have managed to get pepole on BT music even tho it's inferior to a 3.5 and a decent dac. Those are his major contributions to revenue. Thick skin in milking consumers Again i worked for them, used to have guys call up and complain all the time. No one tech savvy wants their boss on an apple product all things being equal. They are forced to because their bosses are incompetent. Senator's IT guys calling and whining about the native email client...hahah. IT nerds and apple do not mix, they're closed gardens. No one who wants to use the hardware they own likes that. No one cares how much you've spent on apple products. If you like their UI and are totally incompetent i'm sure you gain something from it.... But anyone in IT should not be. Typical audiophile, trying to defend the undefendable. lol No doubt because you have wasted absurd amounts of money on apple hardware for no real gain beyond the status symbol and familiarity with the UI MikeyFresh and maxijazz 2 Link to comment
Popular Post botrytis Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 8 minutes ago, BigWilliam said: They have stopped bundling chargers What are you insane/ lol. They have managed to get pepole on BT music even tho it's inferior to a 3.5 and a decent dac. Those are his major contributions to revenue. Thick skin in milking consumers Again i worked for them, used to have guys call up and complain all the time. No one tech savvy wants their boss on an apple product all things being equal. They are forced to because their bosses are incompetent. Senator's IT guys calling and whining about the native email client...hahah. IT nerds and apple do not mix, they're closed gardens. No one who wants to use the hardware they own likes that. No one cares how much you've spent on apple products. If you like their UI and are totally incompetent i'm sure you gain something from it.... But anyone in IT should not be. Typical audiophile, trying to defend the undefendable. lol No doubt because you have wasted absurd amounts of money on apple hardware for no real gain beyond the status symbol and familiarity with the UI Attitude. Can do w/o condescension here. We get that enough from the MQA contingent. Ask Chris - he got an earful at RMAF. Chris was too nice, I would have thrown those jackasses out. I am not so nice..... The Computer Audiophile, DuckToller and MikeyFresh 3 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 29, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted December 29, 2020 Stop the non MQA talk. It's getting old. Teresa, mocenigo and MikeyFresh 1 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
BigWilliam Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Stop the non MQA talk. It's getting old. You need to do a better job of taking away the off topic comments and not just randomly nuking them There is a point some one brought up apple, that comment should have been removed. You have to start form the original off topic reply. Not decide after others are committed. And now you're confused why people are referencing it? And my comments had nothing to do with Apple? I'll say it again, conviviality and snake oil are interconnected. Your demure demeanor is why people get away with selling all this ridiculous snake oil. And not just you, everyone worried about condescension and sneering. Absurd Apple, laugh at them MQA, laugh at tehm That's how you identify snake oil. If you're unwilling to do your part socially don't be surprised when people exhibit behavior that is not good for the group. Like buying into MQA dacs* At least buying into apple's ecosystem isn't for the most part hurting the rest of us. MikeyFresh, mocenigo, Currawong and 2 others 5 Link to comment
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