A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[sandyk]

36 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Not bad that a cheap USB 3 coupler may beat a USB cable worth $200 ?! 

 

 Don't forget though, that if your PC/Server is using a front USB port that you may already have an internal cheap USB cable up to 18"  long connecting to the motherboard's USB port  !

[Chopin75]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

 Don't forget though, that if your PC/Server is using a front USB port that you may already have an internal cheap USB cable up to 18"  long connecting to the motherboard's USB port  !

nope, I don't think I have that. I am not using the PC's own USB port.  I use Pinkfaun USB bridge! But good point. 

[Superdad]

9 hours ago, bobfa said:

@SuperdadI wonder if I can flip that end plate on the ISORegen so the text is upright?

 

Sure, why not.   USB ‘A’ side cutout of ISO REGEN end panel is centered in both axis.

Just use a T8 size Torx driver bit.

[austinpop]

After meeting Marcin @Marcin_gps  in Munich, where he showed a prototype of his JCAT music server product under development, I asked him to send me more details. Here they are, in his words.

 

• supermicro  X11SCL-F motherboard (there are 3 PCIe slots). I've always had great results with supermicro boards. Innuos use them in their servers, but a basic model with low performance CPU. I find the server boards to perform better than consumer boards.  
• Intel Xeon E-2136 CPU - I've been using Xeons exclusively since 2012 and found them sounding better than the equivalent i7 CPUs. I've always used the L version (L for low power), but the new Xeons do not come in this version, at least not yet. And the previous L Xeon is out of stock unfortunately. This CPU is 12-core, 12MB of cache and max TDP of 80W which is a lot, but can be minimized by disabling turbo in BIOS. BTW - optimizing BIOS settings is very important for the sound quality. 
• Apacer DDR4 ECC UDIMM 2x4GB server/workstation extended temp. range RAM. Again, these industrial wide-temp UDIMMs sound better to my ears. 
• Apacer SLC drive for OS and 3D TLC for music library. SLC industrial  wide-temp drives (or CF cards) are the best possible solutions for OS in my experience.  Very expensive though. 
• JCAT USB Card FEMTO  & JCAT NET Card FEMTO for USB and Network - plugged directly to PCIe slots without PCIe riser cables. 
• Everything is powered by a massive external ATX linear PSU - no picoPSU used. The PSU has 3 x power transformers &  3 x DC modules for each rail + 1 x DC control board. There  are 3 pieces of Bybee purifiers one for each voltage and 4x 6N OCC cables that link to the PC via 4 aviation sockets. At the server side internal cables are 6N OCC cables for all components (CPU, motherboard, SSDs and JCAT cards).
• The SSDs are connected to the motherboard via JCAT Reference SATA & HD SATA Cables which are a must in my opinion in a hi-end system. 
• OS is Windows 10 optimized by me. Software player is JPLAY FEMTO. A different software can be installed on request. 
• You can quote this on the forum if you like

[Dev]

4 minutes ago, austinpop said:

After meeting Marcin @Marcin_gps  in Munich, where he showed a prototype of his JCAT music server product under development, I asked him to send me more details. Here they are, in his words.

 

• supermicro  X11SCL-F motherboard (there are 3 PCIe slots). I've always had great results with supermicro boards. Innuos use them in their servers, but a basic model with low performance CPU. I find the server boards to perform better than consumer boards.  
• Intel Xeon E-2136 CPU - I've been using Xeons exclusively since 2012 and found them sounding better than the equivalent i7 CPUs. I've always used the L version (L for low power), but the new Xeons do not come in this version, at least not yet. And the previous L Xeon is out of stock unfortunately. This CPU is 12-core, 12MB of cache and max TDP of 80W which is a lot, but can be minimized by disabling turbo in BIOS. BTW - optimizing BIOS settings is very important for the sound quality. 
• Apacer DDR4 ECC UDIMM 2x4GB server/workstation extended temp. range RAM. Again, these industrial wide-temp UDIMMs sound better to my ears. 
• Apacer SLC drive for OS and 3D TLC for music library. SLC industrial  wide-temp drives (or CF cards) are the best possible solutions for OS in my experience.  Very expensive though. 
• JCAT USB Card FEMTO  & JCAT NET Card FEMTO for USB and Network - plugged directly to PCIe slots without PCIe riser cables. 
• Everything is powered by a massive external ATX linear PSU - no picoPSU used. The PSU has 3 x power transformers &  3 x DC modules for each rail + 1 x DC control board. There  are 3 pieces of Bybee purifiers one for each voltage and 4x 6N OCC cables that link to the PC via 4 aviation sockets. At the server side internal cables are 6N OCC cables for all components (CPU, motherboard, SSDs and JCAT cards).
• The SSDs are connected to the motherboard via JCAT Reference SATA & HD SATA Cables which are a must in my opinion in a hi-end system. 
• OS is Windows 10 optimized by me. Software player is JPLAY FEMTO. A different software can be installed on request. 
• You can quote this on the forum if you like

 

Thanks for the post. This is very timely for me as I was looking for ideas onto my next server build 🙂 I was a JPlay user a while back and Marcin has always been server h/w fan (server boards, Xeon, ECC Ram, SLC ). Sometime back I heard a server made by Paul Pang using server h/w and running Jplay at my local audio buddy and it sounded phenomenal.

 

My interest is on the ATX linear PSU. If they decide to sell it separately that would be an excellent option for many DIY folks here.  

[bobfa]

Here is a good review of that series of processors.

 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13526/intel-xeon-e-review-e2186g-and-more-tested

 

 

 

[gdpr]

10 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

Doesn't PF use "AL for Pinkfaun"? And also J RIver for Linux ?

Pinkfaun does make use of Audiolinux, correct

I don't know about Jriver.

Normally they have Roon standard and HQPlayerEmbedded optional.

Dirk

[flkin]

14 hours ago, austinpop said:

@cool_chris

 

Unless someone who hasn't spoken up steps in, it seems clear we do not have any thread participant who's done a side-by-side of the Taiko SGM Extreme, the PF 2.16 1 or 2-box solutions, and the best custom DIY server or server/endpoint represented by Roy's latest build.

 

Given that, let's not go down the rathole of hand-waving comparisons of things we haven't heard. From your tone, you seem inclined to buy the SGM Extreme, and if you can afford it, go for it. 

 

My own perspective - and I'm not asking anyone to share or adopt it - is that given the pace  discoveries we make here, I am not comfortable plonking down $20-30k to any server manufacturer, because I'm convinced a year from now, the state of the art will have moved on significantly. I am far more comfortable spending that on a speaker, or possibly an amp. Others may disagree. With regard to the pre-DAC computer chain, this is one of the main reasons I prefer to dabble and experiment.

 

Also, this thread tends to attract people who like to DIY, or at least experiment, while these über-expensive servers are geared toward people who want simplicity, not spaghetti. For example - and this is a genuine question for those who might know - do Taiko and/or Pink Faun allow, or at least tolerate, experimentation with other software and OSes? Are their BIOSes unlocked enough to enable you to try Euphony on an SGM, or Windows Server on a Pink Faun?

 

 

Given this impressive collection, and your self-proclaimed expertise with building servers, you could certainly go down the route of building a server along the lines that Roy has described (see the index in the first post, or search for posts by romaz). Even if all 6 of your SR7's are single rail, you have enough rails to get this done.

 

So true Rajiv, this thread is all about experiments and results and by nature mostly affordable. It's here I learnt and experimented with all the ideas brought up in this thread before committing to a branded server that best encapsulated all I felt was critical to the sound. How else can one choose from a range of streamers all claiming to be good? 

 

Jord at Pink Faun allowed the user to choose the OS. Earlier versions of the streamer had a version of the Windows server. But the later models went with AL and he suggested strongly to use it. Given all the positive results reported, I'm thinking of trying out the Euphony for fun. Shouldn't think it's difficult to boot from a USB stick but probably will take just time to organise.

 

Sorry for my bit of hand waiving, back to discoveries and results.

[flkin]

11 hours ago, Chopin75 said:

For those curious about PF 2.16, here is a good review of it but unfortunately it is not comparing with other servers but it does discuss various setups of USB vs SPDIF etc. and something about the ultra-clock they use too.

 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/music-server-reviews/pink-faun-2-16x-1-3/

 

I did a few detailed write ups about the streamer in the 2.16x thread some time back. It covers why I chose it, the technology and compared it with a few Antipodes streamers available to me at that time.

 

Just posted in the same thread my findings of upgrading the PF USB OCXO clock. My listening tests of another 2 clock changes for the motherboard and CPU are complete but no time to write it up yet.

[Ricardo007]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

Sure, why not.   USB ‘A’ side cutout of ISO REGEN end panel is centered in both axis.

Just use a T8 size Torx driver bit.

@Superdad Just dreaming of a USPCB with audiophile quality USB connectors... with no nickel plating...

Berrylium copper with palladium plating ?

Just ask Oyaide!

[rickca]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

This CPU is 12-core

The E-2136 is 6 cores/12 threads.

[rickca]

On 5/28/2019 at 6:11 PM, rickca said:

Looks like there is a downside to the new x570 motherboards supporting PCIe V4.  The chipset has a fan!  Apparently, the chipset is 15W compared to 5W on x470.  

https://www.pcgamesn.com/amd/amd-x570-chipset-fan-nobody-wants-this

Here's a new x570 motherboard that uses passive cooling for the chipset.  It uses 16-phase power delivery.  Looks like it will cost a lot!

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14432/gigabyte-unveils-it-s-flagship-x570-aorus-xtreme-16-phase-for-ryzen-3000

[seeteeyou]

FYI - there will be an i9-9900KS with 95W TDP

 

https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-9900ks-cpu-and-ice-lake-gen-11-10nm-graphics-performance-preview/

 

It's also interesting to compare these processors since they're so similarly priced

 

Intel® Core™ i9-9900K Processor

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/186605/intel-core-i9-9900k-processor-16m-cache-up-to-5-00-ghz.html

Quote

Device ID
0x3E98

 

Intel® Xeon® E-2288G Processor

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193743/intel-xeon-e-2288g-processor-16m-cache-3-70-ghz.html

Quote

Device ID
0x3E9A

 

ASRock actually offered plenty of choices for Xeon E Series processors

 

https://www.asrockrack.com/general/products.asp#E-2100

 

Basically we still dunno what kinda CPU + motherboard combo would work "best" for Euphony yet, though Xeon with ECC RAM might seem to have an edge. And then there's also Xeon Silver 4215 with Optane DC Persistent Memory support while that turned out to be more affordable than I thought

 

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=591150702088

[bobfa]

I built my "server" using the ASUS WS C246 PRO motherboard and E2124G processor with ECC RAM and Optane.  I cannot compare it directly to other servers, but it is better than anything I have had in my system.  I have been thinking about upgrading to an E2146G processor to see if it makes any difference.  OR play with a JCAT USB, Or GHENT JSSG power cables.  Hard to decide where to play next.

 

 I think I will enjoy it for now!

[sandyk]

8 hours ago, bobfa said:

I think I will enjoy it for now!

 

A good idea. Getting thoroughly familiar with it  now, will make changes either way easier to pick next time.

[Ricardo007]

Has anybody tried minimalist tinysqueeze OS on renderer?

[seeteeyou]

Interesting stuff ($20 or less) for extending USPCB

 

https://www.we-online.com/web/en/electronic_components/produkte_pb/demoboards/usb_2_0_loesung/USB2_0.php

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/wurth-electronics-inc/829999STICK/732-11369-ND/7087343

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/wurth-electronics-inc/829993STICK/732-11368-ND/7087342

 

When You Need a Little EMC Help: A New USB 3.0 EMI Stick from Wurth

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/news/when-you-need-a-little-emc-help-a-new-usb-3.0-emi-stick-from-wurth/

[Nenon]

Trying the ASRock motherboard with a i9-9900K in my system. 

Since I did not have a fanless case available, I gave this a try:

 

It's keeping the i9-9900K fairly cool with Euphony playing for a couple of hours. Turbo Boost is disabled but most other performance settings are enabled at the moment.

 

This is too big for a permanent solution, but it would suffice for some tests. I thought I would share as this might be an alternative for those looking for a case that can support more than one PCI-e card without risers / extenders. Here is a link on Amazon. 

 

Too early to comment on sound, but I can see what you guys mean by better dynamics with more powerful CPUs. 

[seeteeyou]

For those of us who might be interested in swinging for Xeon, I found plenty of 1U CPU heat sink from Supermicro and generally speaking they cost less than 50 bucks a piece

 

https://store.supermicro.com/server-accessories/heatsink.html?heat_sink_passive_active=149

 

I really dunno what to expect (realistically speaking) when they're claiming these kinda numbers, though something like Xeon Silver 4215 with 85W TDP should be fine

 

Quote

SUPPORTED CPU TDP    Up to 165 Watts

 

Quote

SUPPORTED CPU TDP    Up to 205 Watts

 

And then there's another 2U flavor here for only $29

 

https://store.supermicro.com/server-accessories/heatsink/2u-passive-cpu-cooler-x11-snk-p0068ps.html

https://store.supermicro.com/server-accessories/heatsink/2u-passive-cpu-cooler-x11-snk-p0068psc.html

 

Finally they also have 2 choices for AMD EPYC 7000 Series while covering everything from 120W to 180W TDP, that means only 7371 with 200W TDP is no good

 

https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/amd/epyc

https://store.supermicro.com/server-accessories/heatsink.html?heat_sink_passive_active=149&heat_sink_supported_cup_sku=977

 

It's (almost) unthinkable that even 32-core processors with > 150W TDP could be passively cooled, though we've gotta bear in mind that almost all server rooms are supposedly quite chilly to begin with. Usually we need to bring a jacket / sweater of some sort whenever we're working inside a server room for an extended period of time.

[seeteeyou]

Just in case there might be renewed interest in rebooting that crowd funded motherboard(s) project from last year

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55873-shootout-at-the-linux-corral-audiolinux-vs-euphony/page/9/?tab=comments#comment-961583

On 5/28/2019 at 4:39 PM, romaz said:

The motherboard I have decided to focus on for now is the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX/ac which is a mini-ITX board and because of its smaller size, it incorporates only a 5+2 design but this is where things get deceiving because this board utilizes higher quality power phases comprised of the Intersil Smart Power ISL99227 which many consider to be among the best and are rated at 60A each, more than 2X the current capacity of those used in your board.

 

75A Synchronous Buck NexFET™ Smart Power Stage with DualCool Package
http://www.ti.com/product/CSD95490Q5MC

https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/texas-instruments/CSD95490Q5MC/296-48518-1-ND/8567562

https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/CSD95490Q5MC?qs=YCa%2FAAYMW024gRSHTXOplA%3D%3D

 

On 5/28/2019 at 4:39 PM, romaz said:

Another example, your board is only a 4-layer design while my board uses 8-layers which in theory, provides better isolation.  Also, my board, even though it is smaller than your board uses a total of 8oz of copper in the traces resulting in better conductivity.  If someone is building a server from scratch, it would be worthwhile to investigate the gaming boards.  They don't cost that much more.

 

PCB: 12 Layers

Highly-Efficient 16 Phase Power Design

https://www.evga.com/articles/01168/evga-x299-dark/

 

PCB: 10 Layers

Highly-Efficient 17 Phase Digital VRM

https://www.evga.com/articles/01296/evga-z390-dark-motherboard/

 

High layer count enhances stability both for heavy loads as well as high overclocking.

https://www.evga.com/technology/onboardpower.asp

 

On 5/28/2019 at 4:39 PM, romaz said:

I compared 2 Asrock boards side by side and the board with the better VRM sounded better to me.  Whether this is specifically because of the VRM or some other variable is not entirely clear but it would make sense that the quality of the VRM "might" impact SQ since the VRM is responsible for the stability of the power that the CPU sees.  As to whether more power phases also results in better power stability, this is not always true since the quality of the power phases matter just as the number of power phases.

 

And then there's a catch as well

 

https://www.pcgamesn.com/gigabyte/x570-aorus-xtreme-amd-ryzen-3000-overclocking

Quote

Traditionally motherboard manufacturers use a phase doubler so that an eight-phase PWM can create a virtual 16-phase power design for their boards, but Gigabyte’s TruePower VRM system contains a direct 16-phase PWM without the need for a doubler. It claims that this offers a 4% improvement in the energy efficiency of the Aorus Xtreme compared with the more-standard parallel VRM design.

 

[bibo01]

 

4 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

For those of us who might be interested in swinging for Xeon, I found plenty of 1U CPU heat sink from Supermicro and generally speaking they cost less than 50 bucks a piece

 

Unfortunately, these "passive" CPU heat sink are meant for servers only where there is always a powerful cooling system blowing across the MB. Notice how the heat sinks are designed  to receive air from one side only.

Better go for Noctua.

[seeteeyou]

On 5/31/2019 at 7:00 PM, rickca said:

Here's a new x570 motherboard that uses passive cooling for the chipset.  It uses 16-phase power delivery.  Looks like it will cost a lot!

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14432/gigabyte-unveils-it-s-flagship-x570-aorus-xtreme-16-phase-for-ryzen-3000

 

Holy Cow, that's like quite a bit better than that ASRock board (5+2 design and 60A) mentioned by @romaz

 

https://www.aorus.com/X570-AORUS-XTREME-rev-10

Quote

Direct 16 Phases Infineon Digital VRM Solution with 70A PowIRstage

 

IMHO it's pretty crazy that 12-core 3900X could be sold for $499, and then there will be more Threadripper coming in the future

 

https://wccftech.com/amd-ryzen-9-16-core-zen-2-cpu-leak-overclock-benchmarks/

[seeteeyou]

10 hours ago, bibo01 said:

Unfortunately, these "passive" CPU heat sink are meant for servers only where there is always a powerful cooling system blowing across the MB. Notice how the heat sinks are designed  to receive air from one side only.

Better go for Noctua.

 

Thanks a lot, I just read something about their product prototype for the consumer market

 

Noctua shows off 1.5kg fanless cooler that can handle high-end processors

https://www.techspot.com/news/80293-noctua-shows-off-15kg-fanless-cooler-can-handle.html

 

Noctua prototype passive cooler can handle 120W in fanless case
https://hexus.net/tech/news/cooling/131141-noctua-prototype-passive-cooler-can-handle-120w-fanless-case/

 

105W TDP for Ryzen 9 3900X so it might actually be feasible to go fanless.

[cool_chris]

What is th best way to include optane in the server ?

is it :

1. Stand alone on motherboard for OS system.

2. Addition to the existing SSD that has Os.

3. Mounted in pci express ( hyper m2 x16 card . that carries 4 modules) 

in this last configuration this could carry the music library .

 

 

[seeteeyou]

I dunno man, it kinda depends on what kinda CPU + motherboard combo you're going for. And then whether you're getting the M.2 version or the AIC NVMe PCIe version of Optane.

 

We want our Optane drive(s) to occupy PCIe lanes that are directly connected to the CPU itself instead of going through the PCH. Unlike Supermicro, most manufacturers don't like to provide the block diagram of each motherboard so we've gotta do our homework.

 

For OS plus the database of Roon Server, many of us should be able to get away with 64GB Optane Memory M15 or else just wait for the 128GB flavor that's supposedly coming in the (near?) future. There's another 380GB Optane Memory 905P while the length is 110mm

 

https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb/p/N82E16820167466

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-Optane-905P-380-GB-Solid-State-Drive-PCI-Express-PCI-Express-3-0-x4/293104758884

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/148607/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-380gb-m-2-110mm-pcie-x4-20nm-3d-xpoint.html

 

Heat sink here

 

https://www.techpowerup.com/252547/ek-co-develops-a-heatsink-for-the-intel-optane-905p-m-2-ssd

 

For the AIC NVMe PCIe version, we could spend more than $2,000 for the 1.5TB version

 

https://www.provantage.com/intel-ssdped1d015tax1~7ITEE0ML.htm

 

About $1,100 for 960GB version

 

https://www.newegg.com/intel-optane-ssd-905p-series-960gb/p/N82E16820167458

 

Most products for option #3 seemed to have a cooling fan by default since they're including that for the sake of RAID 0, though we could turn that off since we're only interested in JBOD for the music library.