A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[flkin]

5 hours ago, cool_chris said:

Why Taiko extreme is far better sounding than pinkfaun 2.16x ?

If Taiko is using stock clocks ?

There must be something we dont know and Taiko staff knows.

Taiko have tried to add the super moded clocks and it was always worst than with original clock.

I really wanted to know why is that ?

 

 

I haven't heard the SGM Extreme although I almost had a chance in Hong Kong but was too busy to pop into Volent despite making an appointment.

 

At this level "far better" is difficult for me to accept as it's graduations of improvements and even preferences. I recently listened to a re-clocked Esoteric Grandiso stack, an Airforce One, ClearAudio Statement and an Micro Sx8000 in a home environment through some Wilson Alexandriers. None could hold up against a single box clocked 2.16x. It's possible that the SGM Extreme is better but it would have to be pretty darn special to be so!

 

As to why Taiko decided not to use low phase noise clocks, it's up to them but their design decisions does not negate the benefits I'm hearing with my 2.16x with its extreme clocks. Having played with clocks for a few years, I'm skeptical when someone says clocks don't matter. They always do.

 

3 hours ago, cool_chris said:

..

I think base cost of 11K  PF and 20K for Extreme reflects the difference in SQ.

 

 

That's absolute nonsense. Price has nothing to do with sound quality. 😂😂😂

 

Sorry couldn't help it, that's just asking for it!

[austinpop]

@cool_chris

 

Unless someone who hasn't spoken up steps in, it seems clear we do not have any thread participant who's done a side-by-side of the Taiko SGM Extreme, the PF 2.16 1 or 2-box solutions, and the best custom DIY server or server/endpoint represented by Roy's latest build.

 

Given that, let's not go down the rathole of hand-waving comparisons of things we haven't heard. From your tone, you seem inclined to buy the SGM Extreme, and if you can afford it, go for it. 

 

My own perspective - and I'm not asking anyone to share or adopt it - is that given the pace  discoveries we make here, I am not comfortable plonking down $20-30k to any server manufacturer, because I'm convinced a year from now, the state of the art will have moved on significantly. I am far more comfortable spending that on a speaker, or possibly an amp. Others may disagree. With regard to the pre-DAC computer chain, this is one of the main reasons I prefer to dabble and experiment.

 

Also, this thread tends to attract people who like to DIY, or at least experiment, while these über-expensive servers are geared toward people who want simplicity, not spaghetti. For example - and this is a genuine question for those who might know - do Taiko and/or Pink Faun allow, or at least tolerate, experimentation with other software and OSes? Are their BIOSes unlocked enough to enable you to try Euphony on an SGM, or Windows Server on a Pink Faun?

 

8 hours ago, cool_chris said:

you might be surprised but I cocected a lot of supplys over this years.

I own 6  PH SR7, 3 Bakoons, 3 Uptone 1.2 and 4 Vinnie Rossi mini 5 and 12v.

I also have 800w custom  linearvATX supply by core audio from old days that I keep in bacement for last 5 years.

I can use all this so not much limitations here.

 

Given this impressive collection, and your self-proclaimed expertise with building servers, you could certainly go down the route of building a server along the lines that Roy has described (see the index in the first post, or search for posts by romaz). Even if all 6 of your SR7's are single rail, you have enough rails to get this done.

[cool_chris]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

Has anyone gone back and re-evaluated the USB chain?  

 

I decided on something rather simple an LPS-1.2 powering an ISORegen in 2017.  I have been "afraid" to take it out and listen without it,  Silly!   Today I am going to try the USBPCB to the KII Control rather than the second cable.  Just for fun.  

 

I went back in the thread and looked around some more, but did not find any evidence of a newer way of doing things.  Say just using a Pink Faun or Wolf Audio USB Card and a single cable?

I did it with 2 PCB insted of 2 cables!

the effect is amazing.

no cable offers soch a great improvement.

uptone did a great job with this.

make sure to turn the swich on the side of PCB off 

[Chopin75]

8 hours ago, flkin said:

My single Pink Faun 2.16x with 4 extreme OCXO clocks sounds pretty good to me. Can’t imagine what another external box would bring apart from more CPUs, power supplies, connectors, jitter and noise.

 

The new extreme clocks really made a difference - subjectively I’d say something like 30% more pleasure. Not necessary to upsample with the clocks anymore. Everything is so clear and natural already, I’m finding upsampling now only brings a sense of unnatural massaging to the music.

 

One thing about a better clocks, i’ve never found them to have any downsides, only adds to the sound.

 

If you wanted to separate the audio functions, streamer from renderer, the split CPU cores functions in AL has that option. Shocking what details can be extracted with this function but unfortunately the overall presentation becomes too hard and digital sounding for long time listening. 

Yes,  upsampling can sound unnatural. I rarely use it and i also have a NOS DAC. Sometimes it helps with poor recordings and low res 16 bit.  I use a PC similar to PF 2.16 but less beefy LPS.  No ocxo clocks

[StreamFidelity]

29 minutes ago, austinpop said:

My own perspective - and I'm not asking anyone to share or adopt it - is that given the pace  discoveries we make here, I am not comfortable plonking down $20-30k to any server manufacturer, because I'm convinced a year from now, the state of the art will have moved on significantly. I am far more comfortable spending that on a speaker, or possibly an amp. Others may disagree. With regard to the pre-DAC computer chain, this is one of the main reasons I prefer to dabble and experiment.

 

I agree with that.

 

Everyone has to answer the question about the best server for themselves. It depends on the target image. For me, Roon and HQPlayer (PCM => DSD 512) are important. So I need a strong CPU and trouble-free LAN and USB connections. This is my current plan:

 

On 5/25/2019 at 6:18 PM, StreamFidelity said:

After detailed research, I have the following new fanless audio PC under construction:

 

• Intel Core i9-9900K (95W TDP), 3.6GHz - 5.0GHz OctaCore - HD Graphics 630
• Streacom FC9 Alpha (Black) - Desktop - micro ATX
• ASUS ROG Maximus XI Gene
• Corsair Dominator Platinum - DDR4 - 16GB
• Samsung SSD 970 PRO 512GB, M.2
• JCAT USB Card FEMTO
• JCAT NET Card FEMTO
• HDPLEX 200W Linear Power Supply (LPS) Black
• HDPLEX 400W HiFi DC-ATX

GPU is out of the question for me because I want to have a completely fanless PC. Since I currently have no problems running DSD 512 (filter: poly-sinc-xtr-lp-2s, shaper: AMSDM7 512 + fs) with an Intel Core i5-8400T, I am not afraid without a GPU.

 

Some will wonder why I chose a gaming board. These are just very robust and equipped with good components. Pink Faun does the same. 😉I believe that good hardware is essential for a good sound.

 

Added to this are memory with very low latencies and superfast SSDs.

 

For extremely important I consider a trouble-free data transport and a clean power supply. The JCAT USB and NET cards are equipped with Femto clocks and are powered externally by the HDPLEX 200W LPS with 5V each. The same LPS in combination with the HDPLEX DC-ATX converter is designed to provide the new audio PC with clean power that is free from high-frequency noise.

 

The operating system comes Server 2019 on it, optimized with Audiophil Optimizer 3.0 (to come in late May) and Fidelizer.

 

I'm really looking forward to my new project. 😀

 

My Roon and HQPlayer setup should work like this:

 

[cool_chris]

40 minutes ago, austinpop said:

My own perspective - and I'm not asking anyone to share or adopt it - is that given the pace  discoveries we make here, I am not comfortable plonking down $20-30k to any server manufacturer, because I'm convinced a year from now, the state of the art will have moved on significantly. I am far more comfortable spending that on a speaker, or possibly an amp. Others may disagree. With regard to the pre-DAC computer chain, this is one of the main reasons I prefer to dabble and experiment.

 

I feel the same way . Thats why I got here and wanted to get Your opinion .

Everyone. 

I consider this forum as the source of the best info and state of the art knolage in CA.

I did thausends of experiments 7 and 5 years ago so I know a little about how this is complicated. Especially the  Motherboard/ CPU / RAM / power  OR OScore setup with milions of possibilities.

 

 

My viewis little different. I have everything except of top class server ( I have only totaldac server) and top class network swich and cables ( I have jplay network cables and Paul Pang swiches) .

 

I focuse more on the server side because I know how important it is and I know I cannot learn it all myself. It just costs to much to buy everything.

 

 

[Chopin75]

5 hours ago, cool_chris said:

 

I know a lot about the Extreme. I am impressed with the build and science behind that.

seriously considering to get it. Very expensive but probably the best solution.

I am just unsure if stripped Windows will work as good as the new installed device years later.

I have very bad memories with W 12 server. It sounds great once optimised.

afer a month or two it is garbage . SQ is very compromised.

you have to get back and install everything including the system , players and optimization.

i think Euphony could be better here than Windows.

Yeah, forget about windows, not good for audio. Linux based like euphony or AL are best way to go!

[Chopin75]

2 hours ago, bobfa said:

Has anyone gone back and re-evaluated the USB chain?  

 

I decided on something rather simple an LPS-1.2 powering an ISORegen in 2017.  I have been "afraid" to take it out and listen without it,  Silly!   Today I am going to try the USBPCB to the KII Control rather than the second cable.  Just for fun.  

 

I went back in the thread and looked around some more, but did not find any evidence of a newer way of doing things.  Say just using a Pink Faun or Wolf Audio USB Card and a single cable?

 

This post is not meant to open up another workload for me or others, just trying to keep my ear to the ground.

 

 

How about no USB cable? - regen adaptor Vbus off + some usb e coupler only, see pic, i added an isilencer to clean up the sound (ok I see cool chris did something similar!)

 

someone did USB optical cable and that apparently is even better ! - he used corning USB cable

 

or just use I2S, like PF I2S bridge but it does not do DSD/DXD

[cool_chris]

5 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

Yeah, forget about windows, not good for audio. Linux based like euphony or AL are best way to go!

 

Again. I hate Windows. It was like beautiful lady. 

Gave me a true pleasure while listening the music just after install. 

but few weeks later gave me a really hard time being harsh and unpleasent.

 

[bobfa]

21 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

I did it with 2 PCB insted of 2 cables!

the effect is amazing.

no cable offers soch a great improvement.

uptone did a great job with this.

make sure to turn the swich on the side of PCB off 

 

Due to the location of my gear, I have to keep one cable.  I have to test the VBus switch with my Kii Control to see if it needs power or not.  

 

What is funny about this is when I changed systems I kept the USB setup the same.  I had forgotten that I could not use the USBPCB because of the size of my Shiit DAC in my old cabinet!  

 

I guess that this does not look too funky hanging off of the KII control.  @SuperdadI wonder if I can flip that end plate on the ISORegen so the text is upright?

[cool_chris]

5 minutes ago, bobfa said:

Due to the location of my gear, I have to keep one cable.  I have to test the VBus switch with my Kii Control to see if it needs power or not.  

I would do everything I can to replace the second USB cable with uptone PCB .

it is one of the best and chepest  upgrades you can get.

 

[cool_chris]

14 minutes ago, Chopin75 said:

How about no USB cable? - regen adaptor Vbus off + some usb e coupler only, see pic, i added an isilencer to clean up the sound (ok I see cool chris did something similar!)

the quality of coupler metters.

I did the same , but I used uptone PCBs only ! No USB cable.

very good effect.

Based on the picture attached I would remove the blue couplers.

[gdpr]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

Also, this thread tends to attract people who like to DIY, or at least experiment, while these über-expensive servers are geared toward people who want simplicity, not spaghetti. For example - and this is a genuine question for those who might know - do Taiko and/or Pink Faun allow, or at least tolerate, experimentation with other software and OSes? Are their BIOSes unlocked enough to enable you to try Euphony on an SGM, or Windows Server on a Pink Faun?

 

Sorry that I have disrupted this topic.

But you are absolutely right, I have chosen for a Pinkfaun server because I wanted something simple, worling, stable and supported. Windows was out of the question as I have been using that in combo with Jriver.  I was more updating than listening to music.  I have no knowledge of Linux, and in my ‘role’ of audiophile, I am not willing to invest therein.

On the level of flexibility, it is up to Jord to respond, but from a support point of view, too much flexibility will kill the business.

 

I will refrain from further responses in this topic

Dirk

[sergiocurvelo]

I decided to remove any USB solution from my system. I'm going to buy a Pink Faun S / PDIF bridge board and connect it directly to the DAC via a digital cable. Has anyone adopted a similar solution?

[austinpop]

48 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

Thats why I got here and wanted to get Your opinion .

 

If you search Roy's and my recent posts in the last few weeks, I think you'll get a very clear idea of the current thinking. Of course, the caveat is this thought process will evolve over time.

[austinpop]

21 minutes ago, ddetaey said:

I will refrain from further responses in this topic

Dirk

 

Dirk, 

 

You're most welcome to post. I only try to keep the conversation focused on direct listening experiences.

[tapatrick]

42 minutes ago, cool_chris said:

I would do everything I can to replace the second USB cable with uptone PCB .

it is one of the best and chepest  upgrades you can get.

 

Yes. Highly recommended if you can work it: USPCB>Isoregen>USPCB>DAC. But beware it can put a lot of pressure on connectors/plugs. I damaged my IsoR by breaking traces inside due to tension this way but managed to repair it. 

[tapatrick]

Just now, tapatrick said:

Yes. Highly recommended if you can work it: USPCB>Isoregen>USPCB>DAC. But beware it can put a lot of pressure on connectors/plugs. I damaged my IsoR by breaking traces inside due to tension this way but managed to repair it. 

However I find an Isoregen into a Sonore Ultradigital for I2S into my PS Audio DAC even better. 

[cool_chris]

This is what I did.

removed cubox from the inside of the totaldac and connect it direct to DAC with pcb via isoRegen .

 

also I use grounding cables for the outside of the connecting PCBs.

amazing result.

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, bobfa said:

 

Due to the location of my gear, I have to keep one cable.  I have to test the VBus switch with my Kii Control to see if it needs power or not.  

 

What is funny about this is when I changed systems I kept the USB setup the same.  I had forgotten that I could not use the USBPCB because of the size of my Shiit DAC in my old cabinet!  

 

I guess that this does not look too funky hanging off of the KII control.  @SuperdadI wonder if I can flip that end plate on the ISORegen so the text is upright?

 

How does it sound?

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, ddetaey said:

Sorry that I have disrupted this topic.

But you are absolutely right, I have chosen for a Pinkfaun server because I wanted something simple, worling, stable and supported. Windows was out of the question as I have been using that in combo with Jriver.  I was more updating than listening to music.  I have no knowledge of Linux, and in my ‘role’ of audiophile, I am not willing to invest therein.

On the level of flexibility, it is up to Jord to respond, but from a support point of view, too much flexibility will kill the business.

 

I will refrain from further responses in this topic

Dirk

Doesn't PF use "AL for Pinkfaun"? And also J RIver for Linux ?

[Chopin75]

For those curious about PF 2.16, here is a good review of it but unfortunately it is not comparing with other servers but it does discuss various setups of USB vs SPDIF etc. and something about the ultra-clock they use too.

 

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/digital-reviews/music-server-reviews/pink-faun-2-16x-1-3/

[Chopin75]

1 hour ago, sergiocurvelo said:

I decided to remove any USB solution from my system. I'm going to buy a Pink Faun S / PDIF bridge board and connect it directly to the DAC via a digital cable. Has anyone adopted a similar solution?

Do see the review I just posted above

[bobfa]

25 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

How does it sound?

I have only listened to the system a little bit!  I have six tracks I use for a quick test:

 

 

The ISORegen was in the system. It is powered by an LPS-1.2.  The old connection method was:  Server -> Transparent HP USB -> ISORegen -> Ghent JSSG360 USB -> Kii Control

Now it is Server -> Ghent JSSG360 USB -> ISORegen -> USBPCB  -> Kii Control

 

As to not bother sleeping family member I have kept it QUIET.    Right away on the first track there was less edge, and Dominique's vocals had a bit more presence, there is just a bit more depth.  In the Evanescence track, Amy Lee's voice can be a bit raw and it is less so while maintaining the presence. By the time I get down to Artifacture, there is just a little more detail or separation (electronic music is hard to define this).  The Dylan piece did not seem that different.  I will have to listen some more when I can concentrate on the system.  My son spent about three hours listening yesterday so I will have him compare today if possible.

 

I will also do an A/B test with and without the ISORegen...  Just because.

 

 

 

[Chopin75]

5 hours ago, bobfa said:

I have only listened to the system a little bit!  I have six tracks I use for a quick test:

 

 

The ISORegen was in the system. It is powered by an LPS-1.2.  The old connection method was:  Server -> Transparent HP USB -> ISORegen -> Ghent JSSG360 USB -> Kii Control

Now it is Server -> Ghent JSSG360 USB -> ISORegen -> USBPCB  -> Kii Control

 

As to not bother sleeping family member I have kept it QUIET.    Right away on the first track there was less edge, and Dominique's vocals had a bit more presence, there is just a bit more depth.  In the Evanescence track, Amy Lee's voice can be a bit raw and it is less so while maintaining the presence. By the time I get down to Artifacture, there is just a little more detail or separation (electronic music is hard to define this).  The Dylan piece did not seem that different.  I will have to listen some more when I can concentrate on the system.  My son spent about three hours listening yesterday so I will have him compare today if possible.

 

I will also do an A/B test with and without the ISORegen...  Just because.

 

 

 

For me I was comparing

 

PC--> DH lab mirage USB cable  (0.5 M) ----> cheap USB 3 coupler x 1--->  isilencer ---- > Regen USBPCB VBus off ----> DAC

vs

PC--> cheap USB 3 coupler x 2 ----> isilencer ---- > Regen USBPCB VBus off ----> DAC

 

PC is running on euphony OS with Stylus

 

The change was subtle but one can soon hear more air/space between notes and better sound stage, with more realism. The USB cable has made it warmer and perhaps a bit more refined but at expense of some loss of air/space and is more grainy/digitalis sound by comparison. I think the added warmth is result of the copper wire in the USB. Sound is a bit more veiled where as without the USB cable it sounds much more transparent, microdetails are more prominent, the higher tones/freq are also more prominent, but no added harshness. Perhaps some loss in bass but that could just be the muddiness from the USB cable that is now missing. 

 

Not bad that a cheap USB 3 coupler may beat a USB cable worth $200 ?!