A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[rickca]

3 hours ago, Johnseye said:

I suspect Sean will have his hands full after this exposure.  I'm very tempted to request an ATX PSU.

Don't you already have an SR7 or are you still waiting for yours?

[rickca]

13 hours ago, romaz said:

Something also tells me that Innuos has something even better than their SE brewing in their pipeline.

Great.  My SE just arrived an hour ago.  I may need a doctor.

[seeteeyou]

FYI - an owner of Paul Hynes SR7EHD got 6 pieces of LT3045 recently and they're powering Micro ATX motherboard (Gigabyte H97M-D3H) successfully

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/310402-fs-ultra-low-noise-power-supply-lt3045-based-pcb-3.html#post5324398

Quote

 

It has provided a great step up in the sound, better bass attack cleaner transients.

 

Got the boards built with both channels combined to power the Motherboard RAM at 1.3 volts.

 

 

Here are some links to other forums with instructions for modifying the power source of RAM (both DIMM and SO-DIMM) slots

 

http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3267

http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6015

[Johnseye]

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Don't you already have an SR7 or are you still waiting for yours?

 

I have an SR7.  The SR7 won't work with an ATX interface unless I use the Pico or HDPlex adapters.  That's something I was trying to avoid.  You also need 3 rails for an ATX interface without the adapter 12v, 5v & 3.3v as well as the ground.

 

It's give and take.  There may not be a difference between Paul's SR7 with one of the adapters and Sean's.  Like I said, I'm tempted but there's probably better use for the money.

 

1 hour ago, rickca said:

Great.  My SE just arrived an hour ago.  I may need a doctor.

 

That's the issue with prebuilt equipment.  Unless it's modular, allowing for updates, it will be outdated within a year.  It's an endless cycle in the audiophile world.  That's the main reason I took the build-your-own approach.  I can upgrade any component anytime.

 

[lmitche]

4 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

That's the main reason I took the build-your-own approach.  I can upgrade any component anytime

Amen!

[rickca]

20 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

That's the issue with prebuilt equipment.  Unless it's modular, allowing for updates, it will be outdated within a year.  It's an endless cycle in the audiophile world.  That's the main reason I took the build-your-own approach.  I can upgrade any component anytime.

I agree and I bought the SE with my eyes open.  Whenever you buy a ready-made product, a prototype of an even more advanced model is already in development in the lab.  Even a newly launched product reflects component selection and design decisions that were made well before it was even announced.  

 

I have two systems, and I want at least one that is a well designed turnkey solution that is supported by the vendor.  I can always have a second server that I build myself for experimentation with the latest technology.  I don't have the DIY skills to keep pace with the discoveries that users here so generously share.  I find it exciting to learn what I can by following along and selectively implementing things I know I can manage.  

[KingRex]

56 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

That's the issue with prebuilt equipment.  Unless it's modular, allowing for updates, it will be outdated within a year.  It's an endless cycle in the audiophile world.  That's the main reason I took the build-your-own approach.  I can upgrade any component anytime.

 

Even mine which is modular could be scrapped at 2 years.  The case has improved as well as Incorporating a new mother board that only uses 6 Watts.  But, I still have jaw hits the floor amazing  digital playback.  Yes It is getting better but hey, my digital blows my $7000 analog out of the water.  No contest. 

[Johnseye]

4 minutes ago, KingRex said:

Even mine which is modular could be scrapped at 2 years.  The case has improved as well as Incorporating a new mother board that only uses 6 Watts.  But, I still have jaw hits the floor amazing  digital playback.  Yes It is getting better but hey, my digital blows my $7000 analog out of the water.  No contest. 

 

I still listen to vinyl all the time.  Different sound.  I prefer listening to jazz on vinyl and classical on digital.  Classical music gets so quiet and well recorded and pressed vinyl that gets that quiet is rare.  I like pre 80's rock on vinyl, post digital with exceptions.  Often times it depends on the recording or pressing itself and not the year or genre.

 

20 minutes ago, rickca said:

I agree and I bought the SE with my eyes open.  Whenever you buy a ready-made product, a prototype of an even more advanced model is already in development in the lab.  Even a newly launched product reflects component selection and design decisions that were made well before it was even announced.  

 

I have two systems, and I want at least one that is a well designed turnkey solution that is supported by the vendor.  I can always have a second server that I build myself for experimentation with the latest technology.  I don't have the DIY skills to keep pace with the discoveries that users here so generously share.  I find it exciting to learn what I can by following along and selectively implementing things I know I can manage.  

 

Nothing wrong with either approach.  I just like the flexibility when I can manage it.  There are some guys out there who build everything themselves.  I can't do that.  Computers are one thing, speakers, DACs, etc are another.

[flkin]

12 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

 

Have you actually tried these cables to compare them to those recommended by SOtM?  If so, would you please describe the nature and magnitude of the difference in SQ?

 

I just place the 3 new Pasternack PE33476LF-12 (RG316-DS wire, double shielded) clock cables into my system 2 days ago along with 2 Ghent unshielded DC cables from my 2 sPS-500 units replacing the original short SOtM and another longer JSSG Ghent cable. The overall effect off the swap was a thicken and fleshing out of the body in the sound much like the effect of adding the IsoRegen. A more forward and rounded 3D feel to it. A very nice change but also added a small smearing of detail and slightly fatter bass. 

 

It's an experiment with shielding DC cables. There is talk of benefit but also a possibility of over dampening the sound so I'm trying various arrangements to see what happens.

 

I'm thinking of letting the wires burn for a few more days then remove them to see the change in sound. I'm hoping the 3D effect will remain but with more detail and tighter bass.

 

As for the contribution of just the 3, 24 and 25MHz cables within the Trifecta, I will know after I swap them out. And will update my findings here after.

 

The original SOtM-US recommended cables from Digikey were the J1212-ND version with RG316 single shield wire.

[austinpop]

19 hours ago, romaz said:

As easy as it is to discern the sound quality differences between a standard Mac Mini and a Zenith SE, the SQ differences among these 4 speakers make the gap between a Mac Mini and the SE sound rather minuscule in comparison.  While I am not in the market to buy speakers in the range of the Alexias, if someone were to offer me a pair of Alexias with the stipulation that I could only use a standard Mac Mini as a source, I would take that deal in a heartbeat and never look back.  In the end, it is still the transducer that has the potential to make the biggest difference.

 

12 hours ago, AmusedToD said:

To conclude, I agree with you 100% and thus I could never decide to spend big money on a server. I could have kept my Dynaudio speakers and invested in a digital server, yet after Munich I made a decision to do the exact opposite - ditch the Dyn’s, get a cheap server (I moved from an iMac to an even cheaper NUC this month) and put my money on speakers (the entry level TAD’s in my case). And I am convinced this is the right way to go, especially after some experimentation with a couple of SOtM products.

 

Well... I think you are making a dangerous extrapolation there. I understand the sentiment Roy is expressing, which is to say that transducer differences can be far more profound than digital source differences. But I don't think he is advocating actually adopting the methodology of neglecting the digital source in favor of more budget allotted to speakers.

 

Why? Well, here's Roy himself, expressing what he and I experienced in RMAF.

 

On 10/11/2017 at 5:37 AM, romaz said:

With very few exceptions, when digital was playing, the harshness and compression was painfully evident.  In some rooms, it was bearable for only a few minutes, especially as this annoying glare was being amplified to very loud levels.  As an example, within a few minutes of entering the Paradigm room where their nearly $20k top-of-the-line Personas were on display, I looked at Rajiv and we both knew what the other was thinking, that we had to get out of there in a hurry.  It wasn't the speakers as I suspect they were very good.  It was the digital front end.  If there is one thing I have benefited greatly from with all the things we have learned on this thread, it is the reduction of that piercing glare that I once considered tolerable.  Having gotten so accustomed to the lack of glare from the digital front end I have now, somehow, I have become all the more sensitive to bright and edgy electronics.  There's simply no going back. 

 

I have always felt an affinity to the viewpoint that a good source is the building block of a sound system. I got interested in hi-fi in the 70s as a teenager. These were the days when the prevailing view was the speaker was the most important element of the system, and should get the most allocation of the buyer's budget. Then along came Ivor Tiefenbrun with his now-legendary Linn LP-12 turntable. Ivor was one of the first champions of the "source matters most" principle, and his was a lone voice for some time. Of course, I was living in a 3rd world country at the time, with no access to Linn or any other high-end gear, but that principle has always sounded right to me, and has served me well to this day.

 

My experience with the SOtM trifecta, the master clock, and now the Zenith SE has shown me not only how much better the downstream part of my chain sounds with improvements in the digital source, but also that as I improve the downstream components, they really shine and benefit from the improvement at the source.

[lateboomer]

13 hours ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Guys, the index on the first post was my best attempt to make it easier to navigate this thread, but there is only so much one person can do to reduce a monster thread to digestible form. All I can say is - use the index to go to interesting topics and then read a few pages around them for context.

 

Regarding the reclocked switch. Think of its role not so much in networking terms, since it's really not needed at that location for Ethernet switching at all. No - think of it as a kind of Ethernet reclocker, just like the tX-USBultra (or ISO-Regen) is for USB. It doesn't serve any network purpose there.

 

I did a quick search, and found one representative post to reinforce that:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=92&tab=comments#

 

As for SOtM not modifying switches - that is news to me. I know @Bruce Orr recently got it done. Are you sure you're asking May the right question? There can be a language issue as English is not her first language. SOtM mods switches:

• to accept a 25MHz clock, via an SMB port on the back panel, from an external sCLK-EX board, either in an Ultra component (for example tX-uSBultra) or in a DIY custom server.
• replace capacitor(s)
• replace switching regulators with linear ones.

They've been doing this for quite a while now. Their modding policy, at least as far as I was aware, was that they will not mod another competitor's audio product. So certain things - like ISO-Regen, or SU-1 - were not accepted.

 

See this link from Crux Audio. Kamal Bekkari who runs that site is an SOtM reseller or distributor in the US and Australia, for example: https://sotm-usa.com/collections/ultra-series-mods/products/sms-200ultra-ethernet-switch-mod

 

Regarding the clock distribution. I got to this link from the index:

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?do=findComment&comment=722622

 

Thank you very much, now I fully understand the purpose of the switch which has bulged me since from beginning. One more question is if I want to use this mod switch to reclock Ethernet between Daphile music server and daphile client, and another router is connected to this switch to provide both ip to the server and client, will this configuration work? Currently there is no switch and only a router is between the music server and client to provide ip and routing.

[austinpop]

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

Here are two experiments that would be interesting:

 

Yes indeed.

 

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

1) Separately clock the tx-USBultra and network switch to learn if the synchrony matters.  One would need two clk boards and potentially two reference clocks for this experiment.

 

Eric and I tried this experiment a long time ago, when he first got his trifecta. We found no benefit or degradation from using 1 sCLK-EX vs 2 sCLK-EX boards in the chain. The SQ benefit came from the quality of the clock, not apparently due to synchrony with exactly one clock source.

 

10 hours ago, lmitche said:

2) Modify a Netgear fs-10x with the clock mod and jsgt to learn if two switches are really necessary or one will do.

 

If I had it to do over, this is exactly what I would do. In fact, this is what I counselled @Bruce Orr to do, and he is very happy with the results. If/when he next comes to Austin, we can pit his modded Netgear GS108 vs. my modded Zyxel vs. my chain of shunted Netgear GS105 and modded Zyxel.

 

Should be very interesting.

 

[austinpop]

7 minutes ago, lateboomer said:

Thank you very much, now I fully understand the purpose of the switch which has bulged me since from beginning. One more question is if I want to use this mod switch to reclock Ethernet between Daphile music server and daphile client, and another router is connected to this switch to provide both ip to the server and client, will this configuration work? Currently there is no switch and only a router is between the music server and client to provide ip and routing.

 

The switch operates at Layer 2 of the networking stack - i.e. it is below the IP protocol. It will not affect the operations performed by the router - i.e. to be a DHCP server and gateway for your network.

[austinpop]

@AmusedToD

 

Remember the phrase garbage in, garbage out?

 

It is still as true today as it ever was.

[hurka]

If iso regen clocked with sotm clock,can I leave tx usb ultra hub?

[seeteeyou]

Not that many 50Ω coaxial cables are good for tiny little SMB female connectors, this particular one looked somewhat interesting but the others from Digi-Key or Pasternack seemed to be quite similar

 

https://www.txmstore.com/rg316-u-50-ohm-rf-coax-custom-cable-assemblies/

https://www.txmstore.com/rg316-u-50-ohm-rf-coax-cable-bulk-by-the-foot/

 

There's also something else that might be somewhat "audiophile" from Van den Hul (€21 per meter) and the model is D-610

 

http://www.hifishuo.com/view_pdc.php?id=19155

http://www.bthifi.com/vdh/vdh-kabel/pro-serie.html

http://www.vandenhul.com/download/CAwdEAwUUkNLXEU=

https://www.exclusiveaudio.gr/van-den-hull/cables-interconnect-coaxial

https://www.justdial.com/VDH-D-610-Halogen-Free-Cable/pid-11913010

Quote

The D - 610 is a special product in our program mainly intended for industrial purposes. The design aim was to have a slim 50 Ohm impedance coaxial cable with superior transmission properties and a high durability. The D - 610 can be used as an internal coaxial connection in typical HF applications and other situations with a very limited space like e.g. in mixing consoles.

 

The D - 610’s PTFE insulated centre conductor consists of 7 x 0.09 mm. strands of Matched Crystal OFC with a dense silver coating and exhibits a total diameter of 0.30 mm.

• The resistance of the centre wire is 38.7 Ohm/100 meter.
• The shielding is made of 80 x 90 micron strands. Its resistance is 3.4 Ohm/100 meter.
• The light brown transparent external insulation is made of FPE.
• The external cable diameter is 2.6 mm.
• The characteristic impedance is 50 Ohm.

 

[Cornan]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

@AmusedToD

 

Remember the phrase garbage in, garbage out?

 

It is still as true today as it ever was.

 

That constant battle reminds me of this!  

 

 

 

[seeteeyou]

2 hours ago, austinpop said:

My experience with the SOtM trifecta, the master clock, and now the Zenith SE has shown me not only how much better the downstream part of my chain sounds with improvements in the digital source, but also that as I improve the downstream components, they really shine and benefit from the improvement at the source.

 

• £ 7,995 Chord Blu Mk. 2 + Mac Mini
• £ 4,999 Innuos ZENith SE Mk.II Std + $1,200 SOtM tX-USBultra + $3,595 Mutec REF 10 + €700 Habst BNC cable

 

Now I'm wondering if @romaz were still in favor of the first combo or not?

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/?page=148&tab=comments#comment-723032

On 9/25/2017 at 5:16 PM, romaz said:

Practically speaking, this results in a massive improvement in DAVE's resolution, so massive that the collective impact of my server mods which includes 8 clocks being replaced pales in comparison to what Blu Mk2 provides.  For those of you who own a Chord DAVE, I would suggest you prioritize getting a Blu Mk2 beyond anything else discussed on this thread.  Combined with Chord's upcoming "digital" amplifiers, there will be no more resolute or transparent way of listening to a digital file.  Despite all of this, I am finding, however, that the quality of the music server still matters.

 

Now we could even connect Blu Mk. 2 to £1195 Chord Quetest.

[AmusedToD]

1 hour ago, austinpop said:

 

 

Well... I think you are making a dangerous extrapolation there. I understand the sentiment Roy is expressing, which is to say that transducer differences can be far more profound than digital source differences. But I don't think he is advocating actually adopting the methodology of neglecting the digital source in favor of more budget allotted to speakers.

 

Why? Well, here's Roy himself, expressing what he and I experienced in RMAF.

 

 

I have always felt an affinity to the viewpoint that a good source is the building block of a sound system. I got interested in hi-fi in the 70s as a teenager. These were the days when the prevailing view was the speaker was the most important element of the system, and should get the most allocation of the buyer's budget. Then along came Ivor Tiefenbrun with his now-legendary Linn LP-12 turntable. Ivor was one of the first champions of the "source matters most" principle, and his was a lone voice for some time. Of course, I was living in a 3rd world country at the time, with no access to Linn or any other high-end gear, but that principle has always sounded right to me, and has served me well to this day.

 

My experience with the SOtM trifecta, the master clock, and now the Zenith SE has shown me not only how much better the downstream part of my chain sounds with improvements in the digital source, but also that as I improve the downstream components, they really shine and benefit from the improvement at the source.

 

I hear you, I am not advocating neglecting the digital source. Hell, I spent a fortune on my dCS NBR plus the Paganini DAC. But as it happened in my case, moving from $3500 speakers to $12900 speakers made a much bigger impact than moving from a $2500 DAC to a $13000 DAC.  In order to get to the level of musical enjoyment Roy mentioned in his post (Wilson Alexia 2), one would need to shell out almost $60k just for the speakers, and most probably over $100k for the entire setup, which makes the server a bargain.

 

I am just saying that investing in superior speakers (and amplification) makes for (at it least should make for) a greater upgrade than investing in the digital source. That is my opinion and also the opinion of many audiophiles that I happen to know. 

[seeteeyou]

It's kinda similar for we headphone lovers. Right now we could get both Stax SR-009 and SRM-T8000 for roughly $7,500 (after 10% off for all Rakuten purchases) plus international shipping

 

https://product.rakuten.co.jp/product/-/e48138b80149e5447a6daf822388ffeb/

https://product.rakuten.co.jp/product/-/1db223a786c8875c771a1545946371d2/

 

It's gotta be a hella tough combo to beat since the vast majority of dynamic / planar magnetic headphones simply can't even hold a candle to ToTL electrostatic rigs. It's somewhat difficult to figure out how to spend the same kinda money on source components in order to achieve the same kinda difference in the SQ department IMHO.

[RickyV]

7 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

FYI - an owner of Paul Hynes SR7EHD got 6 pieces of LT3045 recently and they're powering Micro ATX motherboard (Gigabyte H97M-D3H) successfully

 

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendor-s-bazaar/310402-fs-ultra-low-noise-power-supply-lt3045-based-pcb-3.html#post5324398

 

Here are some links to other forums with instructions for modifying the power source of RAM (both DIMM and SO-DIMM) slots

 

http://www.tirnahifi.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3267

http://www.aktives-hoeren.de/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=6015

 

What is he powering with the 6xlt3045 supply? I think he is powering his ram only with the supply.

what is the peak current that a 6xlt3045 can deliver. 5A?

Would a 3 times (6xlt3045 supply) for 3.3v 5v 12v, be sufficient to power a TDP 20w board????? Or that interesting super micro mobo.

[Cornan]

46 minutes ago, RickyV said:

what is the peak current that a 6xlt3045 can deliver. 5A?

 

Stammheim/Michael at DiyAudio makes two versions of the power supply. Single ps= 3A output. Dual ps= 1.5A output. Personally, I would choose single ps any day!  

Michael have also wispered in my ear that he have something new up his sleeve that he will announce the next couple of weeks. A long term full power project that I am very interested to know more about. 

[seeteeyou]

37 minutes ago, RickyV said:

What is he powering with the 6xlt3045 supply? I think he is powering his ram only with the supply.

what is the peak current that a 6xlt3045 can deliver. 5A?

Would a 3 times (6xlt3045 supply) for 3.3v 5v 12v, be sufficient to power a TDP 20w board????? Or that interesting super micro mobo.

 

FYI - I uploaded those pictures on Imgur since Photobucket didn't really seem to treat non-paying users very well

 

https://imgur.com/a/W6bGh

 

Yes, only powering 16GB of RAM with 6 pieces of LT3045. It's only 0.5A continuously from each LT3045 so that's gotta be 3A for 1.3V. Perfect fit according to what he said before

 

Quote

Startup amps for RAM are at 2.9 amps and quickly settles at 2.7 amps.

 

He also talked about Audiowind A-210 regulator so he might be having one regulator after another.

 

And then he's running both CPU and RAM @ 800MHz (as shown in his signature) so maybe the current draw of i7 4770S might not be THAT high?

 

Quote

H97M-D3H/i7@800cpu/800ram

 

Regarding Supermicro X10SBA, someone did mention the power consumption here

 

https://forums.freebsd.org/threads/47778/

 

In addition, please take a look at the "Supermicro X10SBA III （2014.1.30）" section as linked below

 

http://www.geocities.jp/hangaya_craft/pcg3/arekore_test_g28.html

 

Maybe we could still get away with quite a few pieces of LT3045 boards to accommodate different voltage requirements, some of them could be 1A ones from Alexey with others might actually need 3A instead.

[LTG2010]

On 1/27/2018 at 9:59 PM, lmitche said:

I have the same 12 pin pico converter here and it must be powering the normal 3.3, 5 and 12 volt pins on the ATX header.  Where did you learn that the board would run with just the 4 pin 12 volt header connected? Most single voltage DC powered boards use a normal DC barrell connector for power.

 

On 1/28/2018 at 12:06 AM, seeteeyou said:

From what I could tell from looking at the pictures, they're dedicating one of them (all the way to the right with black+yellow wires) for the 4-pin molex connector (12V) that's hidden under the giant heatsink.

 

Now it's somewhat to tricky to understand how they're getting things done for the ATX connector, let's just take a quick look at the pin-out first but please ignore the colors assigned to the corresponding pins

 

I got a response back from Supermicro's technical department it was'nt very detailed but basically you can power their boards from either the 12V DC 4 pin connector or ATX connector and also both connections if using an ATX supply.  When you use the ATX connector 20/24 pin the 4 pin input can be used as a 12V 'backup' supplying extra juice when the use is excessive. Therefore in Using the pico connector this is essentially the ATX route combined with the 12v 4 pin.

They couldn't give me specifics as to how the extra 12V is used or where its diverted to, when using the ATX connection.

I think for our purposes avoiding the pico connector and connecting directly to the ATX source is the best way to get clean current to any board. You will need the 3 rails (3.3v, 12v and 5 v) and T off from that to your atx connector and basically test it out. Depending on your board and uses the current can get high so you might need to parralel your lt 3045 boards and use big heatsinks. As most of us are powering hard discs, USB cards and other devices seperately the current demand will not be great especially, with a low current processor.

I guess if your using SOTM output cards directly powered then the differences between the 2 options won't be huge.

edit: @seeteeyou just seen your above post

[str-1]

9 hours ago, rickca said:

Great.  My SE just arrived an hour ago.  I may need a doctor.

And I'm only the fourth week into mine.  But I'm not bothered.  Always expected Innuos would look to top the SE this year.  No guarantees of course, but I would like to think that an SE + USB regenerator (ISO Regen or tx-USBultra), with good power supply (e.g. SR4), plus ferrites and maybe some of @romaz warranty-destroying tweaks, would equal or come close to equaling the next Innuos flagship, and probably for significantly less money.