A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[lmitche]

3 hours ago, rickca said:

Fantastic!  Which LPS and which HDPLEX DC to DC converter are you using?

Rickca,

 

Power is from a 19 volt 6 amp Sigma 11 based LPS and an older 250 watt hdplex DC to DC converter in combo with EVGA 1600 watt titanium monster on the 12 volt cpu(epu) cable.

 

The 250 watt hdplex specs are :

Output Voltage Max DC Current Full Load DC Current Output Voltage Tolerance Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)
—————————————————————————————————————-
+3.3V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+5V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+12V 19A 16A 1% 120mV
+5VSB 2A 1.5A 3% 50mV

 

The new hdplex 400 watt specs are greatly improved:

 

Output Voltage

Max DC Current

Full Load DC Current

Output Voltage Tolerance

Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)

---

+3.3V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+5V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+12V	50A	35A	1%	10mV
+5VSB	2A	1.5A	3%	10mV

So the newer model likely sounds even better.

 

The whole 24 pin connector only pulls 18 watts with Hqplayer upsampling running. The 12 volt cpu connector pulls ~70 watts or < 5% of the rated power.

 

This is the biggest single increase in SQ I have ever heard from a tweak.

 

Larry

 

 

[vortecjr]

7 hours ago, lmitche said:

Inspired by the Innuous design, I'm using a linear power supply and an hdplex DC to DC  converter here to power the 24 pin atx connector of a z170 6700k machine with the 12 volt cpu power coming from a standard 1600 watt ATX power supply. This is the SQ tweak of tweaks.  I can't believe what I am hearing.

 

The hdplex just sounds better then the minibox.

 

I agree with you, there should be a common ground in the board between these connectors and as such I did not expect such an improvement. It is frustrating in that I have owned all the kit to make this enhancement for years, and it was unused for most of that time. 

 

Thanks to this thread, I thought to test this change. I am glad I did. Now working to fit everything into the case, and to get one button power working again.

It’s an old trick. There is still room for improvement, but you will hit a wall with this kind of approach.

[vortecjr]

5 hours ago, Johnseye said:

 

What does "playing the content" mean exactly?  At that point it's still a digital stream, not analog.  I always wondered exactly what the renderer does.

 

It’s the player in the digital loop. For example...It takes content in FLAC format and outputs PCM. The controller is the director telling the server what file to offer up to the renderer to play.

[rickca]

5 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

It’s an old trick. There is still room for improvement, but you will hit a wall with this kind of approach.

@lmitche keeps finding ways to move the wall.  

[ElviaCaprice]

I don't think we gleamed any new information from the Innuous design that we didn't already know with the sCLK-EX server, power matters.  Some of these old ATX powering tricks are nothing new with separate CPU LPS.  Although nice to hear that new HDPlex ATX DC to DC converter board has gotten better specs.  I still have an older one on hand not being used.

 

For this kind of money on these boutique servers, I would rather put my money forth towards more influential components like DAC or speakers, where we would get a far bigger bang for the buck (m-scaler or DAVE for myself can be had for around 8k each, but I'm not going there right now, wait for this technology to come into my budget).    Meanwhile some small tweaks are in store with adding my PH7.  I'll wait for some reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks, built to order or DIY.  Meanwhile no rush, sCLK-EX Jetway NUC is just fine, for the right cost.  Keep up the good work guys, looking, experimenting.

[Johnseye]

32 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

It’s the player in the digital loop. For example...It takes content in FLAC format and outputs PCM. The controller is the director telling the server what file to offer up to the renderer to play.

 

But it's the Roon Core/server/controller that applies the DSP or does the upsampling.  Same with HQPlayer.  So it does that while still in FLAC format?  I don't see how that's possible.  I thought it was the server that converts it from FLAC to PCM or DSD.

[lmitche]

48 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

It’s an old trick. There is still room for improvement, but you will hit a wall with this kind of approach.

If I owned a ultrarendu, or any third party streamer, I would have a hit wall as there is no way for me to improve it.

[vortecjr]

45 minutes ago, rickca said:

@lmitche keeps finding ways to move the wall.  

You can still hit the wall even if it's moving:)

[ElviaCaprice]

Personally, I find the renderer concept a dead end as an added unnecessary component of complexity and possible generation of noise, let alone cost.  Everything can be done at the server, with great care and design taken place.  The server can do anything a renderer can do and so much more, especially on the software end.   The future is in the server design.

 

Really keeping it simple!

sCLK-EX server=>DAC=>Speakers

[vortecjr]

46 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

I don't think we gleamed any new information from the Innuous design that we didn't already know with the sCLK-EX server, power matters.  Some of these old ATX powering tricks are nothing new with separate CPU LPS.  Although nice to hear that new HDPlex ATX DC to DC converter board has gotten better specs.  I still have an older one on hand not being used.

 

For this kind of money on these boutique servers, I would rather put my money forth towards more influential components like DAC or speakers, where we would get a far bigger bang for the buck (m-scaler or DAVE for myself can be had for around 8k each, but I'm not going there right now, wait for this technology to come into my budget).    Meanwhile some small tweaks are in store with adding my PH7.  I'll wait for some reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks, built to order or DIY.  Meanwhile no rush, sCLK-EX Jetway NUC is just fine, for the right cost.  Keep up the good work guys, looking, experimenting.

It could be new to him. Your still waiting for a  reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks:) 

[vortecjr]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Rickca,

 

Power is from a 19 volt 6 amp Sigma 11 based LPS and an older 250 watt hdplex DC to DC converter in combo with EVGA 1600 watt titanium monster on the 12 volt cpu(epu) cable.

 

The 250 watt hdplex specs are :

Output Voltage Max DC Current Full Load DC Current Output Voltage Tolerance Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)
—————————————————————————————————————-
+3.3V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+5V 12A 10A 1% 50mV
+12V 19A 16A 1% 120mV
+5VSB 2A 1.5A 3% 50mV

 

The new hdplex 400 watt specs are greatly improved:

 

Output Voltage

Max DC Current

Full Load DC Current

Output Voltage Tolerance

Ripple Noise (mVp-p,MAX)

---

+3.3V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+5V	12A	10A	1%	10mV
+12V	50A	35A	1%	10mV
+5VSB	2A	1.5A	3%	10mV

So the newer model likely sounds even better.

 

The whole 24 pin connector only pulls 18 watts with Hqplayer upsampling running. The 12 volt cpu connector pulls ~70 watts or < 5% of the rated power.

 

This is the biggest single increase in SQ I have ever heard from a tweak.

 

Larry

 

 

How does the ripple spec of your Titanium compare to 250 watt HD-Plex? If companies would list the ripple at various loads then we could compare things properly. I saw a spec the other day that did this, but I can't find now. Was it you that posted a link to a power supply the other day? 

[ElviaCaprice]

5 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

Your still waiting for a  reasonable cost custom mobo down the road tricked out with premium power and clocks:) 

Not really waiting or looking.  When I see one that does additionally what I want, then I'll get off the fence post where I happily sit at the moment.

[vortecjr]

34 minutes ago, Johnseye said:

 

But it's the Roon Core/server/controller that applies the DSP or does the upsampling.  Same with HQPlayer.  So it does that while still in FLAC format?  I don't see how that's possible.  I thought it was the server that converts it from FLAC to PCM or DSD.

Roon is different because it is the player so it can apply DSP there. Same for HQ Player. These stream to ALSA in Linux and then ALSA outputs to your DAC. When we talk about renderers it's mostly a DLNA term. 

[vortecjr]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

If I owned a ultrarendu, or any third party streamer, I would have a hit wall as there is no way for me to improve it.

You could have played around with an endless offerings of power supplies:) 

[vortecjr]

32 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Personally, I find the renderer concept a dead end as an added unnecessary component of complexity and possible generation of noise, let alone cost.  Everything can be done at the server, with great care and design taken place.  The server can do anything a renderer can do and so much more, especially on the software end.   The future is in the server design.

 

Really keeping it simple!

sCLK-EX server=>DAC=>Speakers

This doesn't look simple or cheap to me:

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX) (HDPLex) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (LPS-1) =>DAC.

[ElviaCaprice]

13 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

This doesn't look simple or cheap to me:

(JRiver) Jetway barebones NUC (mod 3 sCLK-EX) (HDPLex) => mini pcie adapter to PCIe 1X => tXUSBexp PCIe card (mod sCLK-EX) (LPS-1) =>DAC.

Sure, I'm just breaking down in detail the server with all it's individual components.  Cost total with modifications by SOtM, $1500, not including the power supply which will eventually be a Paul Hynes SR7, one output out of 4.  Cost for that single output, $500.    OOPs forgot the power supply for the tXUSBexp card, add another $400 or $500.   

Total 2.5K

 

What I like about separate power supplies is there modular ability.  They don't go out of fashion.   A good investment.

 

 

[vortecjr]

1 minute ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Sure, I'm just breaking down in detail the server with all it's individual components.  Cost total with modifications, $1500, not including the power supply which will eventually be a Paul Hynes SR7, one output out of 4.  Cost for that single output, $500.  

 

 

I like that last part. 

[LTG2010]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

The whole 24 pin connector only pulls 18 watts with Hqplayer upsampling running. The 12 volt cpu connector pulls ~70 watts or < 5% of the rated power.

Looks like the titanium supply was the weak link. From those measurements you could feed the CPU with a 6-10amp linear psu and the 24pin atx with a 3 rail linear PSU 3.3/5/12v around 2-3 amps, (you can measure each output more precisely) eg, lt3045 boards and get rid of the dc to dc converter.

[lmitche]

45 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

You can still hit the wall even if it's moving:)

Jesus R, with all due respect, and I mean respect with your many amazing contributions to the field, you are a vendor in a hobbiest thread.  Many of us here are DIYers. You know that. 

 

Can we please have a place to discuss our innovations without ridicule?

 

 

 

[ElviaCaprice]

12 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

I like that last part. 

Why not the first part?  Your going to need a server, might as well make it good.  Better than 6K on a boutique one.  Plus you don't need any renderer.  Just a straight shot into the DAC via USPCB.

[vortecjr]

6 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jesus R, with all due respect, and I mean respect with your many amazing contributions to the field, you are a vendor in a hobbiest thread.  Many of us here are DIYers. You know that. 

 

Can we please have a place to discuss our innovations without ridicule?

 

 

 

I'm not a music server vendor. I'm doing the best I can to answer questions and share what I have learned over the years. I'm sorry if you feel that joke ridiculed you.  

[vortecjr]

8 minutes ago, ElviaCaprice said:

Why not the first part?  Your going to need a server, might as well make it good.  Better than 6K on a boutique one.  Plus you don't need any renderer.  Just a straight shot into the DAC via USPCB.

How can I answer this so Larry doesn't accuse me of acting like a vendor:) Right now I'm using my 2011 Mac computer to stream to my credit card sized endpoint. It's simple and inexpensive. You could use a USPCB with it as well. Anyway, don't get me wrong what you are doing is sensible IMO compared to the alternative you mentioned. The renderer is just a remote output and in my case one old Mac computer can stream to multiple remote outputs.  

 

[austinpop]

35 minutes ago, lmitche said:

Jesus R, with all due respect, and I mean respect with your many amazing contributions to the field, you are a vendor in a hobbiest thread.  Many of us here are DIYers. You know that. 

 

Can we please have a place to discuss our innovations without ridicule?

 

Echo that. You're welcome here, @vortecjr, but only if you respect the purpose of this thread.

[ElviaCaprice]

16 minutes ago, vortecjr said:

How can I answer this so Larry doesn't accuse me of acting like a vendor:) Right now I'm using my 2011 Mac computer to stream to my credit card sized endpoint. It's simple and inexpensive. You could use a USPCB with it as well. Anyway, don't get me wrong what you are doing is sensible IMO compared to the alternative you mentioned. The renderer is just a remote output and in my case one old Mac computer can stream to multiple remote outputs.  

 

 

Yes,  of course.  But I would inject that you have already damaged the audio data stream with poor clocking/power and injection of noise over connections from the MAC before even getting to the renderer, let alone the confines of software capability of the renderer.  How this is physically possible, I can't explain.  Just mine and others observations thru listening tests in time here on this forum.  Thus the need for fixers or trifecta in streaming with a  renderer.

 

A single modified server (mindful of power and clocking) with a shorter streaming path, low impedance,  direct to DAC has a huge advantage in simplicity over a renderer, SQ being approximately equal.  Let alone the versatility in software, drivers and formats.

[vortecjr]

6 minutes ago, austinpop said:

 

Echo that. You're welcome here, @vortecjr, but only if you respect the purpose of this thread.

 I believe I have.