Building a DIY Music Server

[ASRMichael]

Let’s agree both are really important! Everything in the chain! 

[matthias]

1 hour ago, Darryl R said:

I'd like to ask someone to very briefly explain why they think non-regulated DC will work in the DIY server (apart from budget or whether they like it better or not).

 

The classic LPS uses an unregulated LPS plus a regulator stage.

The Nenon/Taiko PS uses an unregulated LPS plus the Taiko DC-DC ATX.

 

>>>The regulator stage has a similar effect as the DC-DC SMPS converter.

 

Matt

[matthias]

3 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Let’s agree both are really important! Everything in the chain! 

 

Agree, both are important but the server is more important.

 

Matt

[ASRMichael]

12 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree, both are important but the server is more important.

 

Matt

Bold statement! What DAC are you using with your extreme? 
 

[matthias]

3 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

Bold statement!

 

Why bold? I would say it is common wisdom gathered in threads like this and the Source First principle.

The Server is more upstream to the DAC.

 

Matt

[dctom]

I don't know,  when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here,  DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme!

[matthias]

2 minutes ago, dctom said:

I don't know,  when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here,  DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme!

 

Agree, DACs draw often more attention but that does not mean that they are more important.

 

Matt

[Nenon]

12 hours ago, Dev said:

it will be very useful if a single rail DC4 (reg+recap+transformer) can fit inside the Taiko DIY chassis to power the JCAT XE, along with other unregulated power supply parts and DC-ATX. The JCAT has a molex connector which can be used to power it internally. Possible or is it too tight and can't handle the heat dissipation ?

It think there is some extra space for something like that. 

 

10 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

If I weren't mistaken, DC4 rails / regulators wouldn't be sold separately while we've gotta play by the rules

Sean sells regulators for DIY. 

 

1 hour ago, matthias said:

Did you find time to compare powering the JCAT XE via DC4 vs via the 5V/4A output from the Taiko ATX?

Not yet. I'll try it next month...

 

5 hours ago, Exocer said:

Was the SJ used through the Taiko DC-ATX or was it powering the CPU directly with separate 12v rail feeding the DC-ATX unit? And/or did you compare both scenarios above with the same results?

SJ to 12V EPS vs. Unregulated to Taiko ATX.

Haven't tried SJ to Taiko ATX. I need higher voltage LPS for that. I'd rather finish the unregulated LPS tests first. Still have a few more tests to make and waiting for more parts while breaking in the existing parts. 

 

5 hours ago, Exocer said:

Up until now, it was understand by many that using a single rail "could" result in more audible noise, as more components share the same rail and could contaminate each other, hence the recent uptick in ATX LPSs with multiple dedicated and isolated rails.

True. I was a believer in that too. The Taiko ATX is designed to be used as a single unit for all rails. I will get a second unit at some point and planning to try using two (i.e. one for the ATX minus the 12V rail and one for the EPS), but mixing up multiple ground planes has its own consequences. 

 

5 hours ago, Exocer said:

Very excited for the SR7T / Unregulated supply testing I will conduct in the next few months. I am wondering if the results will be similar to what you've described 😎.

I am curious about this too.

 

5 hours ago, Exocer said:

Does the Asus C621 Sage motherboard utilize a separate 12v for the CPU?

No, it's shared between the EPS and ATX.

 

1 hour ago, dctom said:

I have increasingly speculated about which is the most important  component the server or  DAC.

I think the DAC technology is generally speaking more advanced. No one doubts that the digital to analog conversion is a critical operation. For many years DAC manufacturers have been preaching that bits are bits and that the DAC has galvanic isolation and the server does not matter. We started paying more attention to the server/streamer just a few years ago.

Which one has more impact depends on the system, IMO. But they both matter and best to improve both if you can. 

 

[genvirt]

@Nenon  You moved now to MB with two processors, did You exchange (or suppose to) it’s clock for OCXO?
And does it worth to upgrading to Ultra?

 

[ASRMichael]

2 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Agree, DACs draw often more attention but that does not mean that they are more important.

 

Matt

Are you saying this because you have an Extreme? Not everyone has Extreme! 
 

Lets move on....totally subjective! 

[Nenon]

38 minutes ago, genvirt said:

@Nenon  You moved now to MB with two processors, did You exchange (or suppose to) it’s clock for OCXO?
And does it worth to upgrading to Ultra?

No, I haven't replaced any clocks and have no desire to do so.

First, this is an expensive motherboard to ruin.

Second, it has a lot of clocks.

Third, my handmade passive cooling was quite challenging. I have no desire to undo that.

The Taiko chassis will hopefully give me some more opportunities for more tests. As of this point I have no desire to touch the passive cooling. 

[Exocer]

34 minutes ago, dctom said:

I don't know,  when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here,  DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme!

This is true. However, I do not agree with what most others are doing with their DAC emphasis. The source and DAC are both important. Feeding a bad DAC from an SGM Extreme...I do not know if any miracles would happen but i'd love it if someone experimented. A great DAC will scale with a great source. An average DAC may be slightly improved with a better source but will not sound better than a better DAC with an equal source in my experience. That being said, I have not done a lot of tests in this space... but I have tested with my Topping and Yggdrasil DACS.

 

I upgraded from a Topping (DX7S) dac to the Yggdrasil with a Rpi4 streamer source early last year. The DAC made a substantial difference with a modest streamer. But with network optimizations and a more powerful music server, the gap between these DACs significantly widened to the point where I wanted to rid myself of the Topping immediately. It is unlistenable to me now. Yes, the Topping sounded much better with the more powerful/cleaner source and network optimizations but the Yggdrasil is A LOT better with the same optimizations in the path.

 

Edit: @Nenon thanks for reading through my typo and thanks for your response. I mean 19v rail from SJ DC4 + 12v to EPS but your answer covers that. Great responses! Thanks for taking the time. Learning a lot!

[Darryl R]

58 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

The classic LPS uses an unregulated LPS plus a regulator stage.

The Nenon/Taiko PS uses an unregulated LPS plus the Taiko DC-DC ATX.

 

>>>The regulator stage has a similar effect as the DC-DC SMPS converter.

 

Matt

 

Hi Matt,

 

Right, but I was looking for an explanation of how this is so.  Clearly until now we've supplied DC-ATX adapters with regulated, even double-regulated DC.  I suppose part of the purpose of this drill is to experiment and find out.

[matthias]

8 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

Right, but I was looking for an explanation of why the voltage regulation is not needed with the Taiko DC-ATX.

 

You can feed the Taiko DC-DC ATX as input within a big voltage range so you need no regulation for the LPS.

The ultra high switching frequency of the Taiko in the MHz range does not need further regulation.

 

Matt

[Darryl R]

1 hour ago, dctom said:

I don't know,  when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here,  DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme!

 

Some theorize because the server is more upstream it is the more important.  I think Nenon's answer is good here, particularly because I daresay nobody has evaluated everything.  In my system, the role of the server is more subtle, but the DAC was quite expensive.  Emile might say the server is more important (in fact he did to me at one point), and Jonathan at MSB might say they've isolated the interface such that server quality shouldn't matter -- "all you need is a MacBook or a NUC."  In the end, both matter, it's just a matter of degree, and for most of us budgetary considerations kick in.

[Dev]

9 minutes ago, Darryl R said:

 

Some theorize because the server is more upstream it is the more important.  I think Nenon's answer is good here, particularly because I daresay nobody has evaluated everything.  In my system, the role of the server is more subtle, but the DAC was quite expensive.  Emile might say the server is more important (in fact he did to me at one point), and Jonathan at MSB might say they've isolated the interface such that server quality shouldn't matter -- "all you need is a MacBook or a NUC."  In the end, both matter, it's just a matter of degree, and for most of us budgetary considerations kick in.

 

Agree. You can't buy an Extreme for a $500 DAC and expect a stellar performance. Similarly, an excellent DAC might perform even better with an excellent source or may not depending on the design of the DAC. Its very use case specific with no clear answer to which is more important.

[Darryl R]

16 minutes ago, Dev said:

 

Agree. You can't buy an Extreme for a $500 DAC and expect a stellar performance. Similarly, an excellent DAC might perform even better with an excellent source or may not depending on the design of the DAC. Its very use case specific with no clear answer to which is more important.

 

I couldn't keep my Extreme due to pandemic exigency, and had to rollback to an i9/Z490/HDPlex server.  Not a bad server at all, powered by the HDP DCATX and a cheap AC-DC converter, and I could live with it.  I upgraded the internal wiring with Ghent's best, and was just about to upgrade the power when Nenon announced this project.  But I frequently wonder about the psychology of discontentment.  On the other hand, there is legitimate desire for technological advance.

[genvirt]

I think who can obtain an Extreme for sure can obtain (and surely does) DAC of same level (and vice versa) . 
Actually on this “height” all parts of audio stuff should be the same quality and price point.

[MarcelNL]

in my experience most/many DAC's outperform their front end for quite a while, there is of course a connection between what 'level' you want both to be at for all components of the chain...I've heard GREAT if not the best music through stellar speakers coming from a laptop playing youtube footage through a lowly T-Amp (class D amp, here with a tweaked PSU), same setup with a POC tube amp was WAY better, magic happening... Speakers matter a lot, quite a LOT!

 

[Darryl R]

In my system and music library, I still maintain the single most important SQ factor is the quality of the recording.  Many of my RBCD rips blow away hi-res.

[Dev]

the question wasn't so much about who can buy what. Some folks seems to just think that the source is more important than the DAC itself. Take a hypothetical example, if you have $40k for your digital rig, would you spend $30k for the Extreme and $10k for the DAC or vice-versa ? DAC manufacturer will tell you the later, while the source manufacturer will tell you the former. If it were me, my first instinct would be to spend most on the DAC first but in practice I have witnessed that improving the source improves the sound of the DAC as well. How much further you can go improving the sound of the DAC by improving the source will depend on the DAC design and architecture. There will be a point where putting more money into the source will not improve anything and the money is better spent in getting a better DAC....

 

this is why its very use case specific and needs to be evaluated on what you currently have and where can you go given a budget. If I have to spend $20k (and assuming I have the budget) on the DIY server, I would just take a u-turn and spend the money on the DAC as I know for sure it will justify my investment much better and for real SQ benefits.

[matthias]

22 minutes ago, Dev said:

Take a hypothetical example, if you have $40k for your digital rig, would you spend $30k for the Extreme and $10k for the DAC or vice-versa ?

 

Try both configurations and report back, I bet which will win.😀

 

Matt

[ASRMichael]

2 minutes ago, matthias said:

 

Try both configurations and report back, I bet which will win.😀

 

Matt

@Dev don’t forget you need wisdom to do it! 😂

[ray-dude]

30 minutes ago, Dev said:

the question wasn't so much about who can buy what. Some folks seems to just think that the source is more important than the DAC itself. Take a hypothetical example, if you have $40k for your digital rig, would you spend $30k for the Extreme and $10k for the DAC or vice-versa ?

 

I have your hypothetical ratio (Extreme to Chord DAVE) and am delighted.  That being said, if someone offered a trade for any of the more upscale DACs (1 for 1, have to keep it) I wouldn't take it.  DAVE hits WAY above its weight class for me, esp. with the extra attention I've been able to give it.

 

I tend to not view things from a more important lens though.  What is most important depends on where you system is as a starting point, and how balanced your system is.  In my Extreme review, I tried to distill my experiences into a couple succinct ideas:

• First Law: Invest in cabling, power, and digital hygiene to do as little harm as possible (directly or indirectly) to the DAC’s clock, ground plane, or reference voltage plane
• Second Law: Invest in a digital endpoint that moves bit perfect digital data from ethernet to a USB DAC with as little variability and as much timing and signal integrity as possible (aka, as close to precision real time data streaming to DAC as possible)

The DAC is the core of the First Law. Every DAC has an intrinsic noise floor limit and timing accuracy limit and distortion limit.  That is the best that DAC can ever do. Everything else is about letting the DAC perform to its full potential. Power optimizations, mechanical optimization, RF, cabling, etc. all help get you there, but so does signal optimization to the input of the DAC.  As I detail in my just posted DC4 review, the DAVE has such amazing intrinsic performance for noise/timing accuracy/distortion that it scales incredibly well with better power and better mastered content and better input signal quality.

 

That leads to the source, which for me is the Second Law.  If your DAC is already able to operate at its intrinsic limits, the source won't help as much.  If the I/O of your DAC is being held back by your source, it will have a huge impact.  In my case, the intrinsic noise/timing accuracy/distortion limits of the Chord DAVE are so otherworldly, the Extreme (which is the state of the art for the Second Law, IMO) had a staggering impact.

 

I should note that the general audiophile community takes things like DACs more seriously than it takes sources (bits are bits, etc)  Given that bias, in general an investment in sources may have a bigger impact for most, but mainly because of where folks are typically starting from.  All things being equal, I would much prefer to run my DAVE with a RPi or NUC than a lesser DAC with the Extreme, but I am an absolute addict when it comes to the timing accuracy and transparency of DAVE. For others, the calculus is sure to be different.

 

That being said, I think there is part of the calculus that should be the same for everyone. Although not published quite yet, in part 2 of my current review I looked at the impact of the Sound Application PGI TT-7 power line conditioner. It had a massive impact on everyone of my components (Extreme, DAVE, bass units to my speakers, and even my TV).  That has lead to a new Third Law:

• Third Law: Invest in the cleanest and fastest and highest capacity power delivery to all your audio (and video) components

So which is most important?  I think the question is which combination gives the most balanced investment to get to the best Sound Quality (alas, everything still matters).  Start with awesome power and awesome content, then build sources and DACs that reveal everything that is there to be revealed.

 

[Dev]

1 hour ago, matthias said:

 

Try both configurations and report back, I bet which will win.😀

 

Matt

Will give a pass...between, what DAC and source you own please ?