kennyb123 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, dctom said: I don't know, when you read reviews the emphasis is usually on the DAC often the reviewer is using a lap top or average commercial streamer. On other forums other than here, DACs draw more attention than streamers, just my take on it. The exception being the extreme! The reviews in the printed magazines often seem to me as if they had been written a decade ago. I think it’s a reflection of the personal interests of their writing staff. Injecting some new blood would help. The other factor is the lack of interest in servers by the traditional big name brands. Seems Audio Research’s DACs and CD players will always get their attention because that brand already has their attention because of their analog gear. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Popular Post LTG2010 Posted January 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, matthias said: You can feed the Taiko DC-DC ATX as input within a big voltage range so you need no regulation for the LPS. The ultra high switching frequency of the Taiko in the MHz range does not need further regulation. Voltage range and switching frequency don't correlate with the conclusion that no further regulation is required. Simply put a DC - ATX by Taiko or HDPlex etc, will not require regulation because there are 'the Regulator'. Unregulated DC in- Regulator- Regulated DC out. Only in audio especially DIY we have been feeding the HDPlex, etc with regulated DC,or daisy chaining regulators, giving us dual or triple regulated results. What is important for sound quality is the 'Quality' of the power supply going into the DC to ATX. Hence we have had good results feeding the HDplex with a SR7 or DC3 or supercapacitor supply. A poor quality unregulated or regulated supply will not yield good results with the Taiko DC-ATX. 'Unregulated' is also a slightly misleading term. If we look at Extreme smoothing section there's a huge amount of capacitance, 700,000 mf on a single rail, compare this to 20,000/40,000 on a DC3/DC4 (different design implementation) therefore a large amount of smoothing and ripple reduction, and a huge super store of instantaneous current, one of the reasons I suspect for the descriptions of big dynamics, bass impact, scale, etc. In guess this is an ideal match for fast acting regulators. Second a huge choke input, again more filtering and smoothing, plus a stabiliser for current fluctuations (acts like a regulator). Wether the Taiko DC-ATX will sound best with an unregulated or regulated supply is speculation at present we'll see soon enough, but @Nenon's description speed, clarity, dynamics from 'unregulated' supply and space and depth from DC4 (due to lower noise and lower resultant jitter Imo) is what I'd expect. Of course there is always the requirement of budget restrictions. Greatly looking forward to testing the Taiko DC-ATX to get a hit of those dynamics. :) MarcelNL, Exocer, lwr and 3 others 2 4 Link to comment
MarcelNL Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 17 minutes ago, LTG2010 said: 'Unregulated' is also a slightly misleading term. If we look at Extreme smoothing section there's a huge amount of capacitance, 700,000 mf on a single rail, compare this to 20,000/40,000 on a DC3/DC4 (different design implementation) therefore a large amount of smoothing and ripple reduction, and a huge super store of instantaneous current, one of the reasons I suspect for the descriptions of big dynamics, bass impact, scale, etc. In guess this is an ideal match for fast acting regulators. Second a huge choke input, again more filtering and smoothing, plus a stabiliser for current fluctuations (acts like a regulator). That is exactly my thought, just do the math; for a low ripple current you need a what is seen as very high capacitance at the current drawn. ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
Popular Post Dev Posted January 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, ray-dude said: I have your hypothetical ratio (Extreme to Chord DAVE) and am delighted. That being said, if someone offered a trade for any of the more upscale DACs (1 for 1, have to keep it) I wouldn't take it. DAVE hits WAY above its weight class for me, esp. with the extra attention I've been able to give it. If you are content with DAVE, then there is nothing like it. You have reached your end-game DAC and it totally makes sense to invest more on the source side of things. I can't say if this will hold true for you 5 yrs down the line but many have been caught with the vicious cycle in search of end-game DAC. For them, the question then becomes do we invest more on source or invest more on DAC ? This is why I said in my earlier post, its very use case specific. Whatever works in one situation, may or may not work for others. Quote I tend to not view things from a more important lens though. What is most important depends on where you system is as a starting point, and how balanced your system is. That is what I said earlier, which direction you go depends on where you are currently. There is no absolute true or path when in comes to audio. Even if one copies an entire system end-to-end, they will likely get somewhat different result in "their room", assuming we are taking about speaker system and not headphones. Quote I should note that the general audiophile community takes things like DACs more seriously than it takes sources (bits are bits, etc) This is because its a big ticket item, like a speaker or preamp or amp. Magazines want to review them as a key component just like analog, say a turntable, did. The concept of a good source/transport is just getting into the audiophile community slowly now. Down the line, I bet the thinking will change. Quote That being said, I think there is part of the calculus that should be the same for everyone. Although not published quite yet, in part 2 of my current review I looked at the impact of the Sound Application PGI TT-7 power line conditioner. It had a massive impact on everyone of my components (Extreme, DAVE, bass units to my speakers, and even my TV). More than ANY power conditioner can give, it to get one or more dedicated 20A line. The best and the cheapest investment one can make to overhaul your power and it doesn't need a $20k investment 🙄 Never heard of SA before here and like many others I have gone through a fair share of power conditioners (Audience, SR, PS P20 and many more than I can remember). They all sound different in my system. I have no doubt the SA TT-7 sounds great but if I am starting from scratch and have a $30k budget, I wouldn't spend a dime on power conditioner first. IMO, these are things that belong to the last 10% of the sound quality. You need to get a speaker first that "you like", spend enough time positioning them in your room properly (or hire Jim S to do it for you), treat the room, get an Amp that can power it, so on and so forth. This is how my priority goes.... LTG2010, flkin, Exocer and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
bit01 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 I would like to imagine the perfect DAC! It would take the digital signal. filter or mitigate all noise and its effects without generating any of its own adverse effects and reconstruct the perfect analogue output.- i.e. have the 100% performance result at the output. Such a super DAC could be used with any digital source with the same 100% result. A+ Now imagine the perfect server - generates only the bit perfect signal and no noise modulation, radiation or otherwise. If we do not use the super DAC with it - we still shall not get the perfect 100% result. The DAC itself will still be unable to generate a clean analogue output because of its own imperfections. It might generate noise within itself and may not be able to reject other spurious EMI/RFI that would affect the output- (i.e. less than 100% result always). So yes - the DAC should be more critical than the digital source IMO... but where is that super DAC, and can it even exist affordably? Even though I now have a powerful server (i9-10900K/PHD SR7T, SJ reg, etc) and love the SQ in combination with my modest DAC (NAIM DAC-V1) I cannot help but think it reeks of poor system design for music playback. I love the sound (dynamic, clear soundscape, extended powerful well defined bass, low noise, great attack and full decays etc) yet I am not fully convinced it is the way to go! However I watch and try to follow these amazing threads with the hope that a better solution will eventually be found. I keep hoping (naively perhaps) that better and cost effective DAC designs and/or streamers will appear. . Link to comment
Popular Post frederick184 Posted January 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 17, 2021 My observation has been that server-side changes most definitely make a difference. In my system, I have an Asus Rog Crosshair Hero VII/Ryzen 7 3900X based server powered by an SJ DC-4. The DC-4 powers an HDPLEX 800w ATX using the 19v rail, and the 12v rail powers the CPU. The two 5v rails power my JCAT USB XE and Netcard XE cards. My Ubiquiti router, Arris SB8200 cable modem and Buffalo switch are powered by an SJ DC-3. Sablon Audio Ethernet cables are used throughout. Between the server and my downstairs listening room is a fiber optic cable from the Buffalo switch to a Sonore Signature SE, then to my Aqua xHD Formula DAC. Each change to the “front end” ie server side has brought a very large improvement in overall sound. I still think my front end is holding me back from achieving top notch sound quality, despite there being fiber in between server and endpoint. There’s clearly more to it than fiber preventing noise traveling from A to B. Which is why I don’t quite understand how someone can front-end their system with an Apple MacBook and call it good. Colin MarcelNL, Exocer and matthias 3 Link to comment
Popular Post ted_b Posted January 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 18, 2021 31 minutes ago, frederick184 said: Which is why I don’t quite understand how someone can front-end their system with an Apple MacBook and call it good. "Good" is relative; we don't all have the same opportunities or luck (or priorities) to go all-out on any part of our system, let alone most parts. Congrats to those that can or will. 👍 But yes, I fully agree that a front end upgrade can and should be perceivable via sq. What percentage tells a lot about how someone has had to put their system together. sandyk and littlej0e 2 "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
frederick184 Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 17 minutes ago, ted_b said: "Good" is relative; we don't all have the same opportunities or luck (or priorities) to go all-out on any part of our system, let alone most parts. Congrats to those that can or will. 👍 But yes, I fully agree that a front end upgrade can and should be perceivable via sq. What percentage tells a lot about how someone has had to put their system together. Good point, Ted. We don’t all have the disposable income necessary to max out every part of our systems. I guess my point was more that there is a school of thought that says server side changes don’t matter, so putting a MacBook up front is good enough. My experience has been that this is not the case. Colin sandyk 1 Link to comment
Darryl R Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 On the DAC v. server discussion, another aspect is timing, along with budget, as I suspect most of us can't just keep upgrading indefinitely. For instance, I've been an audiophile for over 30 years, I'm nearing retirement with very finite resources, and when I decided to go all-in for a DAC there was no Extreme (along with its significant findings and further questions). I also speculated that server technology was most likely to significantly advance before DAC technology. Seems like the Extreme and this DIY project could prove that out. Link to comment
letterman Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 My wish list for this server build is to be able to upsample to DSD512 using HQ Player to a T+A Dac8 DSD. Will this be possible, and if so, how far into the complex range of HQ Player options could it go? Also, what CPU options are on the drawing board and are there any hot contenders? Link to comment
matthias Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 7 hours ago, LTG2010 said: Wether the Taiko DC-ATX will sound best with an unregulated or regulated supply is speculation at present I am sure Taiko Audio knows which type of the supply is best for their ATX converter and gave Nenon some recommendation: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-278#post-697117 Matt "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
Nenon Posted January 18, 2021 Author Share Posted January 18, 2021 3 hours ago, letterman said: My wish list for this server build is to be able to upsample to DSD512 using HQ Player to a T+A Dac8 DSD. Will this be possible, and if so, how far into the complex range of HQ Player options could it go? Also, what CPU options are on the drawing board and are there any hot contenders? I have written about this just recently, but the CPU model has a big impact on sound quality. Hence, my effort is focused on building a computer around the dual Xeon 4114 CPUs with the Asus SAGE motherboard. Those CPUs are not necessarily the latest technology in terms of clock speed, which is what you need for heavy upsampling. If I was building a heavy duty upsampling computer, I would go with "The Beast" fanless chassis and pick one of the new AMD CPUs when they become available later this year. 1 hour ago, matthias said: I am sure Taiko Audio knows which type of the supply is best for their ATX converter and gave Nenon some recommendation: I have certainly received a lot of feedback from Emile, for which I am very thankful! lwr 1 Industry disclosure: https://chicagohifi.com Dealer for: Taiko Audio, Conrad Johnson, Audio Mirror, and Sean Jacobs Link to comment
matthias Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 10 hours ago, LTG2010 said: Wether the Taiko DC-ATX will sound best with an unregulated or regulated supply is speculation at present we'll see soon enough, but @Nenon's description speed, clarity, dynamics from 'unregulated' supply and space and depth from DC4 (due to lower noise and lower resultant jitter Imo) is what I'd expect. Of course there is always the requirement of budget restrictions. Greatly looking forward to testing the Taiko DC-ATX to get a hit of those dynamics. :) Your post might give the Impression that Nenon feeded the Taiko DC-ATX with the unregulated LPS vs with a DC4. AFAIK, that was not the case. The described SQ differences came from feeding the computer directly with the DC4. Matt Nenon 1 "I want to know why the musicians are on stage, not where". (John Farlowe) Link to comment
letterman Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 Thanks for your comments, Nenon. I read your earlier comments re the sound quality of the Xeon Silver 4114 CPUs. I'm following this thread with great interest. Thanks for your efforts. Nenon 1 Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted January 18, 2021 Share Posted January 18, 2021 http://www.mics.ne.jp/~cdorya/MinorityClean/#download http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/3063-pink-hq-minorityclean/ Quote Meanwhile, MC97 is damn awesome. The biggest quality step up in the history of MC so far. The bass is so deep and solid and highs are so clear and pure it is just beyond belief. Quote MC97 makes my system sound fantastic... again If I close my eyes and feel like I belong here and now and feel it for hours without any fatigue - that's it for me. Quote With MC97 running all afternoon, i have the best music i ever had: actually i don't want to change anything (till the next step ) Quote .mc97 Is REALLY somethIng specIal ! thank you orya vhs 1 Link to comment
ted_b Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 Are those usernames on Marcin's forum any of us? Anyone used MinorityClean before? if so, with AO? After AO? (I guess this should be another thread CTU 🙂 ) "We're all bozos on this bus"....F.T. My JRIver tutorial videos Actual JRIver tutorial MP4 video links My eleven yr old SACD Ripping Guide for PS3 (needs updating but still works) US Technical Advisor, NativeDSD.com Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 @Mellowman @Blawre @Kuni @JazzDoc @recepky @Iain are definitely fellow members on this site, @Zauurx @Patatorz were definitely posting on this thread. Actually I mentioned MinorityClean quite a few times already for a specific reason, it's gonna be awesome if the genius author oryaaaaa were able to create a specialized version for optimizing the performance of Asus WS C621E SAGE with dual Xeon Silver. IMHO he's got the potential to become a key person of our upcoming project with LTSC 2019, it's just a matter of how we could convince him to join us here. vhs 1 Link to comment
Zauurx Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 10 hours ago, ted_b said: Are those usernames on Marcin's forum any of us? Anyone used MinorityClean before? if so, with AO? After AO? (I guess this should be another thread CTU 🙂 ) Hello, I am using MC since the 4x versions on my Lenovo Tiny (AO, Fidelizer, ProcessLasso ..). I also use it on my non-audio computers. Its operation is not linked to other processes (eg AO) and therefore comes in addition. I confirm the quality of the "stable" versions MC88 and MC97. And I use it on LTSC 2019 (40 processes with HQP, Roon and TighVNC active - 25 windows processes). StreamFidelity 1 ROON + HQP / Hdplex H3-i5 + 400ATX >Gustard A26 (NAA twk) > SQM > Benchmark AHB2 / Recital Audio Illumine HEFA Link to comment
JonD Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 I am starting to source the parts for the 4114/Sage build at the moment. CPUs and Motherboard are easy to get hold of, I will wait and see what Taiko make available in terms of case and ATX DC-DC (registered interest). Ram is more of a challenge. Can anyone recommend a European seller of the Apacer ECC ram? Thanks Link to comment
Popular Post ASRMichael Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 16 minutes ago, JonD said: I am starting to source the parts for the 4114/Sage build at the moment. CPUs and Motherboard are easy to get hold of, I will wait and see what Taiko make available in terms of case and ATX DC-DC (registered interest). Ram is more of a challenge. Can anyone recommend a European seller of the Apacer ECC ram? Thanks Mouser MarcelNL and Tatomek7 1 1 Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 @Nenon if we get enough people onboard with this new build would custom RAM be an option? Along the lines of Taiko’s? Exocer 1 Link to comment
Exocer Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 @Nenon in addition to @JonD's question, can we confirm if it matters whether one uses the Xeon Scalable Silver 4210 or the 4114? I recall Emile mentioning he had switched to the newer 4210's with zero impact to SQ. Link to comment
MarcelNL Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 8 minutes ago, ASRMichael said: Mouser I ordered from Mouser and had it on house within 4 or 5 business days, shipped from Texas...amazing! ISP, glass to Fritz!box 5530, another Fritz!box 5530 for audio only in bridged mode on LPS, cat8.1, Zyxel switch on LPS, Finisar <1475BTL>Solarflare X2522-25G, external wifi AP, AMD 9 16 core, passive cooling ,Aorus Master x570, LPSU with Taiko ATX, 8Gb Apacer RAM, femto SSD on LPS, Pink Faun I2S ultra OCXO on akiko LPS, home grown RJ45 I2S cable, Metrum Adagio DAC3, RCA 70-A and Miyaima Zero for mono, G2 PL519 tube amps. Link to comment
Popular Post seeteeyou Posted January 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 19, 2021 https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/623/?tab=comments#comment-1021453 On 1/16/2020 at 6:01 AM, dminches said: The woman from whom I have been ordering is Grace Wong. [email protected] https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/25/?tab=comments#comment-1072858 On 8/9/2020 at 7:54 PM, dminches said: Write to Apacer directly. [email protected] D31 prefix = UDIMM ← 👎 no good for dual Xeon 4144 D51 prefix = RDIMM ← 👍 good for dual Xeon 4144 Dual Xeon 4114 will only boot with RDIMM like D51.23244S.001 as shown below, please be cautious and DO NOT get the regular UDIMM https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/58164-building-a-diy-music-server/page/29/?tab=comments#comment-1078661 On 9/8/2020 at 6:45 PM, Soul Analogue said: You need the wide temperature range spec from Apacer... the chips are different than the normal version https://www.asus.com/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-C621E-SAGE/specifications/ Quote 12 x DIMM, Max. 1536GB, DDR4 2933/2666/2400 MHz RDIMM, LR-DIMM Memory Dev, ASRMichael and Exocer 3 Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted January 19, 2021 Share Posted January 19, 2021 20 minutes ago, Exocer said: @Nenon in addition to @JonD's question, can we confirm if it matters whether one uses the Xeon Scalable Silver 4210 or the 4114? I recall Emile mentioning he had switched to the newer 4210's with zero impact to SQ. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-165#post-640513 Quote We switched to the 4210 when it was released which "sounds" identical to the 4114. The 4214 does not have the same midrange contrast levels. OTOH, 4215 should be mighty interesting since it's the only one with both 85W TDP as well as support for Optane DCPMM https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/193389/intel-xeon-silver-4215-processor-11m-cache-2-50-ghz.html If WS C621E SAGE were "willing" to boot with the Engineering Sample flavor while everything is stable overall, it's gonna cost $125 (or less) a pop https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-128GB-1Rx4-DCPMM-2666-ECC-Server-Optane-Memory-NMA1XBD128G2S-ES/193841515423 If that weren't bootable at all, maybe experts such as LOST_N_BIOS could take care of it? https://www.win-raid.com/t3893f16-Allow-B-stepping-on-Asus-W-E-Sage.html Capacity would be relatively low, though we might have something that could finally beat both Optane DC P4800X and 900P. Exocer 1 Link to comment
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