Building a DIY Music Server

[JonD]

Many thanks to all of you for the replies, much appreciated 🙂

[StreamFidelity]

11 hours ago, seeteeyou said:

Dual Xeon 4114 will only boot with RDIMM like D51.23244S.001 as shown below, please be cautious and DO NOT get the regular UDIMM

 

I think the latencies are quite high.

 

Apacer [email protected] MHz RAM

1,000 / 2,666 * 19 = 14.25 nanoseconds

 

It can be done better, for example [email protected] MHz RAM

1,000 / 2,400 * 10 = 8.33 nanoseconds (0.00000833 ms)

The 2.400 MHz is not very high, but in combination with the CL value, the latencies are very low.

[JonD]

So I have a 4114 source already. Do i need to stick to another 4114 or can i also pick up a 4210. Looks to be almost the same chip and there are plenty of Intel chips around where the difference in the model number is more about binning than a change in CPU.

[RickyV]

28 minutes ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

I think the latencies are quite high.

 

Apacer [email protected] MHz RAM

1,000 / 2,666 * 19 = 14.25 nanoseconds

 

It can be done better, for example [email protected] MHz RAM

1,000 / 2,400 * 10 = 8.33 nanoseconds (0.00000833 ms)

The 2.400 MHz is not very high, but in combination with the CL value, the latencies are very low.

Back then when somebody, I forgot his name, found out that these wt apacer ram sounded beter we noticed the latency but still it sounded beter. Apperently there is something else besides latency that influences SQ.

[LTG2010]

2 hours ago, RickyV said:

Apperently there is something else besides latency that influences SQ.

It might be the Ram refresh rate, tRF-c, the slower the refresh / longer the cycle, the better the sound. You can adjust this in some bios, but I couldn't find a setting in Sage bios.

[MarcelNL]

It also could be different things, why does Optane sound better than a regular SSD?, is it the material used or the implementation or the latency, frequency? Same question would IMO probably apply for RAM.

[StreamFidelity]

25 minutes ago, MarcelNL said:

why does Optane sound better than a regular SSD?

 

It could also be due to the latencies. See image.

Source: PC Perspective INTEL’S OPTANE DC PERSISTENT MEMORY DIMMS PUSH LATENCY CLOSER TO DRAM

 

I consider the lowest possible latency to be one of the keys to audio PCs.

 

Latencies can also be set in the software. With ASIO drivers (USB), Taiko Audio experimented with the buffer settings to my knowledge.

 

If you are interested, I wrote something about latencies (click on translate): Audio PC latencies

[MarcelNL]

thanks, I can read German! I did read up on computer latency, my take home message is that is likely is important but not THE key driver for many processes. I'll read your article!

 

[seeteeyou]

Indeed, we could go for multivariate analysis (like what Emile did) rather than univariate analysis by focusing on latencies alone

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/taiko-audio-sgm-extreme-the-crème-de-la-crème.27433/page-100#post-616762

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/616/?tab=comments#comment-1014096  

On 12/16/2019 at 7:37 AM, romaz said:

I had asked Emile why he felt he needed to use 48GB of RAM in the Extreme when this seemed like overkill and would potentially be a significant source of noise:

 

"Well RAM is a topic on its own, to start with, the 2 cpu’s are split into domains (NUMA / SNC), so you really have 2 x 6 dimms, 6 for each CPU, they are not shared. Music services have their own cpu/dimms and the OS has its own cpu/dims. So its sort of a core and endpoint into a single machine going beyond just core allocations for individual processes. These Ram modules are a custom order type, similar to the Apacer types popular in the Jplay forums, but taking it just a bit further. They do create less noise and draw less current then other offerings. If more dimms reduce performance, it typically means your power supply is negatively impacted by the increased current draw. As occupying more memory channels increases bandwidth and reduces wait states, you do get better individual process performance."  "What you really want to do is reduce your hardware active processing times as much as possible. The net effect is much like a class A amplifier, you have a higher baseline power consumption, but power draw does not vary much, and this is very good for a more “natural/relaxed” sound. I hope this makes sense 🙂 But you do need a power supply which is very comfortable supplying the load. You really want the least possible variation in load, and higher cpu power / bandwidth systems are better at that with very low load music playback processes."

 

As for the Extreme being a core and endpoint in a single chassis, this was interesting for me as well.  You basically have 2 CPUs with each CPU having its own dedicated RAM bank (24GB each) and so there is a genuine distribution of tasks between 2 machines just like dual Pink Faun 2.16Xs.  While I very much like what I heard in the Aries Cerat room at Munich this past May where dual 2.16Xs were playing, this configuration costs north of $30k, has fewer cores, uses a noisy SSD, consumes more than 200 watts, and capably functions as a room heater.  I find the Extreme to be a more elegant and practical solution and at least on paper, I believe it is the most technologically advanced music server at this time.  My brief listening experience in Taiko Audio's listening room did nothing to dissuade me from this opinion.  

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/30376-a-novel-way-to-massively-improve-the-sq-of-computer-audio-streaming/page/697/?tab=comments#comment-1075973

On 8/25/2020 at 11:50 PM, lmitche said:

Project goal: Find a replacement for the unobtainable Apacer DDR4 2666mhz UDIMMs that matches or exceeds Apacer SQ. Best case would be another Samsung B-die memory module or whatever variant of Samsung memory chips that replaced B-die.

Latest results:

There are a plethora of Samsung B-die memory modules available from the major memory packaging and distribution companies. Take a look here for the "google" of Samsung B-die.https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

 

I have tested 3200, 3600, and 4133 mhz modules from Team Group and Gskill in the past few weeks. Despite all being B-die, there are differences in SQ between these modules. The more expensive "higher" binned parts do indeed sound best even when running below their maximum rated speeds. All of the above beat the Apacer 2666mhz SQ.

Next steps: Done for now

 

The Corsair DDR4-5000 Vengeance LPX Review: Super-Binned, Super Exclusive

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15089/the-corsair-ddr4-5000-vengeance-lpx-memory-review

Quote

We confirmed with Corsair that these are E-die. Interestingly Corsair is using its 8-layer PCB design which is impressive and is likely a reason why it is capable of reaching DDR4-5000 in a low profile kit.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/15089/the-corsair-ddr4-5000-vengeance-lpx-memory-review/5

Quote

With this kit, Corsair is sending a clear message. The company wants us to know that their custom 8-layer PCB internal screening process and anodised aluminium heat spreaders are capable of producing memory that hits the highest speeds on the market.

 

There's current draw, super-binned parts, Samsung B-die, Micron E-die, 8-layer PCB design, what else?

[MarcelNL]

sounds like a plan, yet hard to pull off as the effects are subjective....

My experience is that the corsair vengeance LPX (not the 5000 but an older 3200 version) I replaced with the Apacer 'unobtanium' sounded 'dirtier' It helped using them with the precooked LPX settings but the Apacer outperformed them sonically.

 

 

[Zauurx]

On 1/20/2021 at 1:53 PM, MarcelNL said:

thanks, I can read German! I did read up on computer latency, my take home message is that is likely is important but not THE key driver for many processes. I'll read your article!

 

It is interesting in a forum to share solutions in solidarity.
Until now I used an "old" Lenovo Tiny nuc that gives its maximum.
I took advantage of a sale to switch to a recent motherboard and an H3 chassis under Win10 LTSC (which I know well).
While I thought I would get a better result in terms of latency from the start.
No cuts or dropouts even in DSD256 / EC with HQP for an i5-8400.
But the latency remains high and once the drivers are up to date... what are the options / solutions ?? the Bios ??
 

 

With help / www.DeepL.com/Translator

[StreamFidelity]

2 hours ago, Zauurx said:

But the latency remains high and once the drivers are up to date...

 

Is it the result of LatencyMon? Which most disruptive process does the application indicate?

[lmitche]

On 1/20/2021 at 6:59 AM, LTG2010 said:

It might be the Ram refresh rate, tRF-c, the slower the refresh / longer the cycle, the better the sound. You can adjust this in some bios, but I couldn't find a setting in Sage bios.

the slower the refresh / longer the cycle, the better the sound

 

due to lower current demand.

[Zauurx]

3 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

Is it the result of LatencyMon? Which most disruptive process does the application indicate?

The report is attached

 

Latency_report.txt

[StreamFidelity]

15 hours ago, Zauurx said:

The report is attached

 

The Ntoskrnl.exe takes on numerous tasks that are difficult to understand. The process has, among other things, an impact on hardware virtualization, as well as on memory and process management.

 

I suspect the culprit is more likely to be storport.sys.

 

MS wrote: storport.sys is your chipset device driver, check the support page for your device on the manufacturers website to see if there is an updated chipset driver

 

It helps to deactivate unneeded devices in the BIOS. I have deactivated WLAN, Bluetooth and Audio. And of course a BIOS update always has to be made. That solves a lot of problems.

[Zauurx]

6 hours ago, StreamFidelity said:

 

The Ntoskrnl.exe takes on numerous tasks that are difficult to understand. The process has, among other things, an impact on hardware virtualization, as well as on memory and process management.

 

I suspect the culprit is more likely to be storport.sys.

 

MS wrote: storport.sys is your chipset device driver, check the support page for your device on the manufacturers website to see if there is an updated chipset driver

 

It helps to deactivate unneeded devices in the BIOS. I have deactivated WLAN, Bluetooth and Audio. And of course a BIOS update always has to be made. That solves a lot of problems.

Thanks for taking the time to read and find a solution.
I did a fresh install. It was a little better at the start but as the optimizations go on, it deteriorates.
The bios is badly done and for example it is not possible to cut the BT ... which I do with the device manager under Win.
I suspect the M2 SSD, which is 2 years old, is not at its best. A new generation NVME costs only 55 €... for a Crucial P5
I continue .. but the sound is already very good and without interruption.
I am in the search of the maxi .. the normal should already be enough.

[seeteeyou]

On 1/11/2021 at 4:48 AM, Nenon said:

All I can say is that the Extreme has been called "Extreme" for a reason :).

  

On 1/18/2021 at 1:34 AM, dctom said:

I asked as I have increasingly speculated about which is the most important  component the server or  DAC.

 

While many of us might expect Extreme to be the pinnacle at the moment,

 

 

https://www.audioexotics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/TAS-Wadax.pdf#page=3

Quote

For example, Wadax has developed a proprietary technique for removing signal errors that are inevitably introduced by the DAC and output stage. Rather than trying to reduce errors with feedback, Wadax measures and calculates the errors in advance, and then programs a custom integrated circuit, called musIC, to counteract those errors before they occur.

 

https://www.audioexotics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/TAS-Wadax.pdf#page=13

Quote

Between highly skilled artisans, engineers, and other associated disciplines, the whole Wadax structure involves more than 400 people.

 

In our HQ, the weight of the engineering team is substantial for a niche-company like ours. Among our in-house technical resources, we have designed three different specialized labs for R&D and quality control: EMC-EMI, low level (sub-mV) analog measurements, and mixed-signal digital/analog. We also have labs for mechanical prototyping and pre-series testing. For our design testing and demonstrations, we have a 2200 square foot listening room furnished to recreate real-life client rooms. In total, more than 12,000 square feet is dedicated to envision and crystalize our dreams and passions into products.

 

http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/wadax_atlantis_reference.htm

Quote

Advanced topology, carefully selected componentry and exacting construction add up to benefits that are as measurable as they are audible. At least they’d be measurable if existing measurement techniques could quantify levels that low -- a total rail noise of only 0.5uV. Wadax actually had to develop an entirely new measurement protocol just to be able to follow the results of design decisions.

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/27650-cybershaft-rubidium-clocklow-priced-option/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-581390

On 9/29/2016 at 2:18 AM, Elberoth said:

 

The numbers used in this table, are based on minimum manufacturer guaranteed values. The actual samples may exceed those numbers.

 

The perofrmance of the Sforzato PMC-01 BVA clock is so good - it should be considered the curent king of the hill in clock world. No wonder there were reports people in Asia dumping the Esoteric clocks for those.

 

http://www.wadax.eu/reference/

Quote

- Zepto Reference clock: doubled the master clock frequency with only 12fs total jitter.

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/wadax-reference-server.31859/page-2#post-689210

Quote

I hear that Wadax Reference Server does not depend on computer industry soft and hardware. It still use Roon but will be enhanced with their custom extensions.

 

---

 

So far everything seemed to be going totally off the chart IMHO, hopefully Californians who are living not too far from the LA County (maybe @ray-dude and @romaz ?) could check these guys out

 

https://www.facebook.com/sunnyaudiovideo/posts/1795480853942513

Quote

Arriving at the end of January, We shall be adding a complete Wadax Reference DAC and streamer combination to go along with this system.

 

Sunil M. (contacts are linked below) should be fairly active on other forums

 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/posts/288780

https://www.linkedin.com/in/sunil-merchant-68998514

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/members/sunny.6187/

https://www.yelp.com/biz/sunnys-components-inc-covina

https://www.usaudiomart.com/userprofile.php?user_id=63301

 

---

 

Quote

- Dual-differential musIC 3 128-bit-feed-forward error correction process

 

https://audioexotics.vanillacommunity.com/discussion/10649/wadax-aes-first-computer-audio-component

Quote

The engineering on the Wadax represents a paradign shift in high-end audio. The ASIC chip was developed and designed by Javier and his team. It can take into account over 1500 signal parameters, and can be programmed to take into account cartridge type (for the phono stage) and other soon to be announced features.

 

Quote

The same ASIC chip can 'map' the characteristics of your turntable setup and correct it in real time! Javier showed us a vinyl record that you play on your turntable. You turn the Wadax in record mode. You then email the file to the Wadax team that looks at it and creates a custom mapping just for your setup. That file is then sent back to you, and you load it back onto the Wadax using a USB key. So now, everytime you play your Turntable, the signal is reconstructed based on the exact mappings of your turntable. Star Trek stuff? MosDef!

 

When they're building a "monster" DAC like that, could their ASIC (i.e. musIC 3) somehow be able to minimize the effect of a music server or maybe it's actually the exact opposite?

 

---

 

I could imagine that Roy might get in touch with their CEO and then maybe visit them in Madrid after we've put the brewer of Corona beer to sleep

 

https://archive.is/RnUM0

https://www.audiopathways.com/au/wadax/

[ASRMichael]

Yoga Fire, or maybe Yoga Teleport might take us to Wadax! 
 

@seeteeyou

[John769]

51 minutes ago, seeteeyou said:

https://www.audioexotics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/TAS-Wadax.pdf#page=3

 

Thanks and ordered!  Needed something for listening to tunes while doing occasional jobs in the garage. Will report back with findings.

[Csaba]

If "Apacer D31.23245S.001" RAM is unobtainable, which brand/model would be a proper alternative (motherboard is Asus Rog Strix Z390-i)?

[ray-dude]

I would love to hear it, but I suspect 8fs input may be the achilles heel of this DAC.  That puts a fundamental limiting on transient timing accuracy, unless they have a MASSIVE amount of compute to push to higher rates with idealized filters.

 

The power, construction and clock all look first rate.  I'm skeptical about the synthetic feedback scheme and what that does for noise shaping, but they may inject it prior to noise shaping?

 

Lots to learn!

[dminches]

1 hour ago, Csaba said:

If "Apacer D31.23245S.001" RAM is unobtainable, which brand/model would be a proper alternative (motherboard is Asus Rog Strix Z390-i)?

 

Apacer 75.B93GZ.G000B is an option.  It is not wide temperature like D31 but it should work.

 

[bit01]

Mouser has some (4) D31s as of today.

 

New one from Apacer (3200 MHz)?

 

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR4-ECC-UDIMM

 

PS: from last year (according to Mouser)

 

[bit01]

Wide temp one (new)?

https://industrial.apacer.com/en-ww/DRAM/DDR4-Wide-Temp.-ECC-UDIMM

[drjimwillie]

I have a question about player software.

 

Different people are working on software to replace Roon because they don’t like the sound, but they like the interface.

Why are they bothering to try to replace the interface? Why can’t they just use Roon to curate the music? Just use Roon to point to the file location and that’s it. Then, whichever player you like processes the file.

In the same way that Roon & Euphony hand the file over to HQplayer, why can’t it just hand the file over to Stylus or TAS.

 

One of the downsides of Roon is the incessant jabbering it does with the mothership.
The way I address that is I have Roon running on my NAS which has enough computing power for Roon to function. But, you could use any small computer. 
 

these software already communicate with each other. We would just have to get the manufacturers to do the programming to allow that function. 
 

also, everything is communicating over ethernet.