Michael Lavorgna strikes back.......

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

10 minutes ago, firedog said:

Who are "they"? My paragraph you quoted wasn't referring specifically to ML, but to professionals in the field in general. There have been a few here who stopped participating - not because they were arrogant (in fact the opposite was true), but because members here were.

If I was a successful professional in a field and stated my point of view in a reasonable manner, I probably wouldn't want to return to a forum where my motives are doubted and certain members with much less knowledge than mine insist on arguing points they know a limited amount about. 

 

The "they" are the self appointed cult of anti-audiophiles. "a small number of impolite and ignorant posters who often disparage their motives." Not the professionals that have been driven out for having an opinion that differs to the anti-audiophiles.

I completely agree "There have been a few here who stopped participating - not because they were arrogant (in fact the opposite was true), but because members here were."

[arcman]

I am unfamiliar with what happened here at CA, however, Audiostream is an excellent site. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

14 minutes ago, arcman said:

I am unfamiliar with what happened here at CA, however, Audiostream is an excellent site. 

Shhhhh

 

[wgscott]

5 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Well, if viewing it from the POV of the cult, not from an audiophile on an audiophile website,, just sayin   <-----Dennis you forgot yours!

 

Interesting who the "cult" is from your POV.

 

You have a gift.

 

Try this experiment:  Next time you are at work, ask your fellow physicians which group is more cult-like:  (a) Those who believe a bucket of sand and rocks is a viable grounding device and makes music sound better, or (b) those who laugh at group (a).

[beetlemania]

8 hours ago, firedog said:

Professionals often don't participate at forums or give up after trying  b/c they are hounded by a small number of impolite and ignorant posters who often disparage their motives. Why waste your valuable time at a forum when that is the response?

That said MLs attitude didn't help and his PMs were totally out of line - not just for a professional, but for any reasonable adult. 

 

He does seem to have some good listening skills. We can then take his written insights for whatever we think they are worth. 

I strongly agree with these points. Many reviewers and manufacturers have "been driven" off this forum and others by those apparently looking to knock someone off a pedestal (and the manufacturer looking to share knowledge  must take care not to put themselves on the pedestal!). I've read many highly combative posts directed at manufacturers by members who seem bent on making an "authority" wrong.

 

But ML was clearly out of line with his PM and his post on AS is disappointingly childish. And ML has had a similar meltdown on at least on other forum. He really should stay home if his skin is that thin.

 

Still I will continue to read reviews at AS. Having heard some of the kit ML and SP have reviewed, I've come to trust their ears. And, they are good writers . . . just not when responding to impolite posts on the forums (altho' SP -aka Mercman - participates over at AudioAsylum without losing his sh*t).

[rando]

The wider meaning of professionals, outside the business of selling stereo equipment, is important.  Social media or any other type of internet correspondence that isn't private are rife with disastrous potential.  Electronic payment and internet shopping are rife with disastrous potential too and that doesn't hold them back. 

 

There might be a teachable moment here about internet security.  

[christopher3393]

18 hours ago, wgscott said:

The "incivility" being objected to of course isn't someone saying GFYM, but rather, the subjectivist snowflakes lamenting the banning of their prophet.

 

Speaking as a snowflaketivist,  the lamentation is over the occasional descent into Dumbland:

 

 

 

[wdw]

12 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

This is exactly the problem.  "Civility" is just an Audiophile Taliban code-word for their intolerance of any dissent.  More subjectivist dishonesty?   

 

  ;-)  <--- note the Winkie of Absolution, before you start calling for Jihad 

 

Hard to tell if you are completely nuts or just love mischief

 

;-)   <---------winkie of absolution included

[The Computer Audiophile]

Wow, I missed this one entirely while at RMAF. 

 

I take this as a direct stab at CA and the business that feeds my family. Not cool.

 

I wouldn't care that much, but it doesn't help when I try to tell people about CA and they group us in with every forum wacko that has ever trolled the internet. The people here are a cut above and smarter than most people I meet on a daily basis. I've learned a great deal from everyone. 

 

I could go on, but hopefully others see his comments as more reflective of him and his current situation, than CA and the wonderful contributors here. 

[rando]

18 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wow, I missed this one entirely while at RMAF. 

Odd, given the title of his piece directly mentioning RMAF 2017.  In the title no less.  Are you saying there was no interaction at RMAF/CANJAM between the two of you?

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, rando said:

Odd, given the title of his piece directly mentioning RMAF 2017.  In the title no less.  Are you saying there was no interaction at RMAF/CANJAM between the two of you?

 

I saw him at RMAF. He was friendly and complimented my shoes. 

 

What I missed was this article. I don't usually have time to browse other sites while covering a trade show. This time was no exception. 

[Indydan]

20 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Wow, I missed this one entirely while at RMAF. 

 

I take this as a direct stab at CA and the business that feeds my family. Not cool.

 

I wouldn't care that much, but it doesn't help when I try to tell people about CA and they group us in with every forum wacko that has ever trolled the internet. The people here are a cut above and smarter than most people I meet on a daily basis. I've learned a great deal from everyone. 

 

I could go on, but hopefully others see his comments as more reflective of him and his current situation, than CA and the wonderful contributors here. 

 

I was surprised to learn in the first posts of this thread, that ML had been banned. I have found that you Chris, are very tolerant and give posters a lot of leeway. Some posters here would have been banned on other forums. Hence, my surprise that ML had been banned. 

 

But, if he really did tell a CA member to go eff his mother, well then his ban was well deserved. I don't mean to kick ML and take cheap shots, but I find his behaviour disappointing. I enjoy reading his site (though less lately). He is a very good writer, and has an obvious passion for music and audio. I especially enjoy reading Steven Plaskin's reviews. 

 

But, when ML would post here, it appeared to me he was playing games and being facetious. It looked like he would avoid answering questions directly, and would try to anger members. Once a member would erupt and lose his cool, ML would then discredit him and state something like, it was impossible to have a rational conversation. It seemed like he would play these games to discredit others, to avoid answering questions and make himself look good and more mature. He is somewhat skilled at these games, but I think some people here saw right through him. 

 

I find that his site is not as good as it used to be. I loved that site before. I learned a lot from it. For the past year or so, there are less reviews and technical articles. It is more about ML posting personal opinions, and videos of himself playing the guitar with his buddies. Those personal videos should be on his Facebook page, not a commercial site. I hate to kick a guy when he is down (so to speak). But, it seems I am not the only one who is disappointed by some of his behaviour. 

[Indydan]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I saw him at RMAF. He was friendly and complimented my shoes. 

 

What I missed was this article. I don't usually have time to browse other sites while covering a trade show. This time was no exception. 

 

I am not defending ML, and it is normal that his post would anger you Chris. But, I get the impression he was taking a shot at the forum members here, and not you or your website. The thing is, to take a swipe at CA forum members, he had to identify your site.

 

Maybe you can discuss this with him, if you still have an interest in maintaining some kind of professional courtesy or working relationship with him. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

5 minutes ago, Indydan said:

But, when ML would post here, it appeared to me he was playing games and being facetious. It looked like he would avoid answering questions directly, and would try to anger members. Once a member would erupt and lose his cool, ML would then discredit him and state something like, it was impossible to have a rational conversation. It seemed like he would play these games to discredit others, to avoid answering questions and make himself look good and more mature. He is somewhat skilled at these games, but I think some people here saw right through him.

 

This is called trolling, and it has existed on the internet for decades.

[wgscott]

10 minutes ago, Indydan said:

But, when ML would post here, it appeared to me he was playing games and being facetious. It looked like he would avoid answering questions directly, and would try to anger members. Once a member would erupt and lose his cool, ML would then discredit him and state something like, it was impossible to have a rational conversation. It seemed like he would play these games to discredit others, to avoid answering questions and make himself look good and more mature. He is somewhat skilled at these games, but I think some people here saw right through him. 

 

That's right.  I agree completely.

 

The only thing I would add is that by doing so, he was also trying to discredit this website.  He is by no means stupid; I doubt this was accidental.

 

SankyK/Alex mentioned that we have had HA folks come here to do similar things.  He is absolutely correct, and having been the target of some overzealous and threatening behavior (being the hard-left subjectivist that I am), I have no sympathy.  But the one difference is presumably those trolls aren't the proprietor of a "competing" website.  (I also want to thank Alex for intervening on my behalf.)

[Indydan]

4 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

 

This is called trolling, and it has existed on the internet for decades.

True, But most trolls are obvious in their behaviour. They do it for the fun they get from disrupting sites, and getting a reaction from people. I don't get the impression ML was doing it for this reason, but more to prove he was right, or to pursue an agenda (for lack of a better term). 

[Indydan]

5 minutes ago, wgscott said:

 

That's right.  I agree completely.

 

The only think I would add is that by doing so, he was also trying to discredit the website.  He is by no means stupid; I doubt this was accidental.

Agreed. He is not stupid, and he knew exactly what he was doing. 

[wgscott]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I and complimented my shoes. 

 

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

7 minutes ago, Indydan said:

True, But most trolls are obvious in their behaviour. They do it for the fun they get from disrupting sites, and getting a reaction from people. I don't get the impression ML was doing it for this reason, but more to prove he was right, or to pursue an agenda (for lack of a better term). 

 

Potato, potatoe

[esldude]

9 hours ago, sandyk said:

 It's not a tale

. It actually happened. I can't presently recall the name of the senior Hydrogen Audio member that organised it.

Perhaps Bill or some other longer term member may remember his name ?

Perhaps you have Alzheimers setting in Dennis ?

You were around at the time too, IIRC.

I remember it well because you accused me of being a leader in the conspiracy group.  I stated I didn't remember when I last posted there.  Well you looked and found I had posted there some 3 or 4 months prior.  As I recall 3 posts about 2AFC style testing.  Nothing about CA or some conspiracy.  My next most recent post at that time on HA was something like 6 years prior.  I don't know if I have posted a dozen times there since. Maybe I have.  I'll leave that to you Alex.  No need for me to look and see. 

 

I remember a later time since then when about 4 regular HA posters started posting here for a short time.  I don't remember any conspiracy being found out.  Maybe Bill can fill us in.  

[christopher3393]

Here is a quotation from early in the recently revived, and maligned, civility thread. It still rings true to me:

Quote

It is sad that an enthusiast can't put up a post expressing that enthusiasm, without all the self-appointed "experts" and "scientists" chiming, saying the (seemingly pre-scripted) same things they say in other threads, like the talking heads on a TV "news" show.

 

And I'm sure they'll be back here, in this thread, with their "yes, but" responses, saying they agree BUT... (fill in the blah, blah, blah). One thing I never read in any of these folks' posts is a sense of joy regarding listening to music or in using their audio systems. They don't speak of their own *experience* and always react --and I do mean *react*-- when someone else writes of *their* experience. They're always here, ostensibly, to provide "clarity" and "truth" to the rest of us ignorant masses who are so dumb, we just want to share our happiness and our discoveries in music and audio. Only thing is, not one of them seems to recognize just how transparent they are.

 

And now they're choosing which *words* a person should or shouldn't use to describe *their own experience* and *their own feelings*. If anything is AMAZING, I would say that is. Amazingly transparent.

 

It isn't my forum and I don't envy anyone who tried to maintain one in audio. Still, I see this becoming a real problem here at CA and have taken to not participating in threads where these folks are allowed to linger and essentially, pee in the audio pool. Many a time, I visit and all I see is the same old, same old from the same old group of individuals. Then I just leave, thinking "this place used to be fun". (I often wish individuals were "locked" - or "deleted" - rather than threads.)

 

I hope the trend can be reversed. The Internet doesn't need another audio argument fest. It does need an audio forum where folks can freely share *their own* experiences and ideas in an atmosphere of fun and *real* mutual respect, which I'll define partially as simply knowing when to *not* post.

 

https://www.computeraudiophile.com/forums/topic/13204-civility/?do=findComment&comment=178009

 

Now this is not the whole story. Sometimes the Rashomon Effect seems strong here. Reasonable people can disagree on this and how it applies to the Lavorgna history. But it is a long and antagonistic history with tracks both on Audiostream and here on CA. At least that is how I read it. So unless members step up and recognize some mutual responsibility in creating this situation and this climate, and Michael does the same, I don't see any resolution and I see the problem continuing to fester as it has for so long. We are simply experiencing some of the many possible karmic results of this.

 

[YashN]

22 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 How many members participating in this thread are here to discuss Computer Audio ?

 It appears that some come here simply to attack Audiophiles in general,

 and they contribute very little (if any) in the way of advice to further improve Computer Audio.

 

 

 

What's up? Hadn't seen you in a while!

[YashN]

3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I take this as a direct stab at CA and the business that feeds my family. Not cool.

 

I wouldn't care that much, but it doesn't help when I try to tell people about CA and they group us in with every forum wacko that has ever trolled the internet. The people here are a cut above and smarter than most people I meet on a daily basis. I've learned a great deal from everyone. 

 

I could go on, but hopefully others see his comments as more reflective of him and his current situation, than CA and the wonderful contributors here. 

 

Ah, fear not: while the expression of what he meant wasn't the most elegant and appears to single out CA at first sight, it actually refers to all Hi-Fi forums and the unhappy people he refers to aren't all the members here, it's a portion of them that those who are genuinely passionate about the subject have to deal with regularly...

 

CA is still one of the best if not the best IMO: what other audiophile forums are there where concepts are actually inspired on the forum, discussed there, and actual, quality and loved products are borne out of all of the process? Not many.

 

Problem: one of CA's strengths is also one of its weaknesses: the hands-off approach works really well with people who are knowledgeable and can behave responsibly, but the issue is the trolls can have a field day, polluting threads here and there (there are a few in this threads - usual suspects here on CA, and sometimes they even troll on other forums). Maybe mods to help you out can improve things on this front, but they should be knowledgeable mods.

 

Apart from that, a conversation with Michael could be necessary here, because although he might be well-meaning, the perception about how this was written on his site may give a completely different feel. He definitely could have nuanced it more. On the other hand, if the trolls can take over a forum and make it dwindle (a real possibility), that should be the focus of worry, not Lavorgna.

 

Let's not forget that Audiostream has really excellent posts by him and interviews by some of the greats of Audiophilia, including a multi-part John Swenson interview which should be required reading by anyone serious about the subject, so he's more like the good members in here than unlike. Nevertheless, I remember he was quite viciously attacked on this very forum, so this might explain some bitterness on his part for his experience here at CA (but as you can verify, he mentions all Hi-Fi forums, not just CA).

[mcgillroy]

So the major audiophile mag supportive of MQA lends space to a third party to discredit the most important source of sceptical info about MQA.

 

This is either pure unlucky coincidence or they are really feeling challenged.

 

Either way Chris, as ugly as this may be, they put you on the map.

[YashN]

3 hours ago, Indydan said:

 

I was surprised to learn in the first posts of this thread, that ML had been banned. I have found that you Chris, are very tolerant and give posters a lot of leeway. Some posters here would have been banned on other forums. Hence, my surprise that ML had been banned. 

 

'should',  several of them, a long time ago. Too bad ML can't explain himself here anymore - didn't know he was banned. Not surprised he lashed out at some of the unsavory characters here though.