MQA is Vaporware

[#Yoda#]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

MQA was at first going to be used as the solution for Pono. Not sure what problem this solution addressed, but the team at Pono (when real businessmen ran the company, not Neil Young or his industry chronies) decided MQA didn't make sense. 

 

Maybe Neil Young, John Hamm or some other people in the PonoMusic Team or other related people simply noticed in this early stage of MQA the divergence between assertion and reality, respectively the negative impact to the initial impetus of Neil Young to bring music in real studio quality to the ordinary music consumers.

[botrytis]

Also, MQA doesn't make sense if you look at digital reproduction theory. You can see the the double unfolding and the filters used by MQA produce noise above the Nyquist filter used. In a 96/24 FLAC the Nyquist filter is around 45KHz, yet MQA files played have ultrasonic noise above that. So, MQA is actually adding artifacts to the music. This has been demonstrated in a few publications by measuring the files and comparing them to an non-MQA file.

 

This type of information gives me pause about MQA and what are they really trying to do with it. 

[#Yoda#]

HighResAudio.com announced on Facebook a new HiRes streaming service in Europe, using native 24bit FLAC and no lossy technology like MQA. Link:

 

"HighResAudio Streaming: we are bound to launch our subscription based streaming service in Europe! Stay tuned for a unique usability, feature-set and of course our pristine and fully tested, verified and native 24bit FLAC audiophile service. Highly recognized and well known German music journalist are on board to make the HRA streaming service the only serious choice. Pssst ..., the subscription price is a real winner!"

 

[Charente]

Interesting news @#Yoda# ... HighResAudio.co did offer MQA downloads in the past but now appear to have stepped back and now not offering it on their streaming service either.

[PeterSt]

Yea, with this slogan :

 

You will receive 100% guaranteed, tested, verified and analysed content from us. Exactly, the master - the way it was produced and signed off by the artist, producer and mastering engineer.

 

So this is where I should stop buying from HRA.

 

[FredericV]

32 minutes ago, #Yoda# said:

HighResAudio.com announced on Facebook a new HiRes streaming service in Europe, using native 24bit FLAC and no lossy technology like MQA. Link:

 

"HighResAudio Streaming: we are bound to launch our subscription based streaming service in Europe! Stay tuned for a unique usability, feature-set and of course our pristine and fully tested, verified and native 24bit FLAC audiophile service. Highly recognized and well known German music journalist are on board to make the HRA streaming service the only serious choice. Pssst ..., the subscription price is a real winner!"

 

It's good to see real PCM highres is here to stay:

 

Qobuz also chose this route and offers real PCM and DSD.

[Rt66indierock]

A very interesting interview with mastering engineer Brian Lucey. He calls MQA what it is. Enjoy

 

An Interview With Mastering Engineer Brian Lucey

NOVEMBER 5TH, 2017FAIR HEDON0 COMMENTS

Brian Lucey is one of the most in demand mastering engineers working today, bar none. His Magic Garden Mastering studio is based in Los Angeles. Just a quick glance at the featured discography tells you not only does he work on projects from established icons like Lucinda Williams, Marylin Manson, Depeche Mode, The Pretenders and Dr. John, but also with the most relevant artists of today including Royal Blood, The Kills, Arctic Monkeys, Ryan Bingham, Ray Lamontagne, Cage The Elephant, and of course The Black Keys last three records beginning with ‘Brothers’.   Metal band Ghost’s track Cirice and Cage The Elephant’s Tell Me I’m Pretty are his most recent Grammy winners, and his mastering is featured on recent Billboard #1 albums by Shania Twain in the US and Liam Gallagher in the UK. along with Royal Blood last year in the UK. The staff at Fair Hedon especially love his work on the Doyle Bramhall II album Rich Man, and the other worldly Nomad, by North African superstar Bombino.  Lucey graciously agreed to an interview to discuss his workflow, and current trends.

Fair Hedon: Brian, you are one of the most sought after mastering engineers currently working today, and you have mastered some of the most successful albums over the past few years,  including those from Ray Lamontagne, Cage The Elephant, Lucinda Williams, Depeche Mode, and too many other to mention.  What is your basic philosophy and preferred work flow? Is your mastering a collaborative effort with the artist, or do they trust you to work your magic and then sign off?

**************************************************************************

 

**************************************************************************

Brian Lucey: Basic philosophy:  Mastering is the bridge between what we had hoped to make and what will be judged for all time as the definitive product.   With any release we are competing against the Recorded History of Music.   The aim for my work is to win people over, and open them up to new music by enhancing the connection between artist and audience.  Also to surpass expectations in the production team.  It’s an intimate connection to individuals that we want from any music, that leads to a sense of community, and ultimately to the elevation of all parties.  I’m looking for sonic immediacy and excitement balanced with timelessness, so it’s still exciting and fresh in 30 years.   I’m looking to expand the fan base, make artists happy and make everyone money.

 ****************************************************************

 

 

 *****************************************************************

Preferred work flow:  I have a simple chain with 3 analog pieces in between DA and AD.  I work back to each single from the overview by skipping around with the cursor to sections of each track for a few seconds.  It’s a mostly analog chain for the EQ, MS, compression and limiting.  Also at times I use a linear phase EQ in Sequoia 12, or the internal DeEss.

Generally I do a first pass on my own, then do revisions based on comments.  I work unattended 100% of the time, at odd hours of the day or night, as inspired to do the best work for the particular aspect of the job that’s next in line.

Fair Hedon: We are have been numerous trends come and go in the marketplace, everything from DSD, 24 bit downloads, Blu-Ray, streaming, and the resurgence of vinyl. One controversial topic currently being hotly debated is MQA. What is your take?

Brian Lucey: When I first heard about MQA I wondered why would anyone bother with such a concept, as streaming the full file is only going to get easier over time, and the reduction of data with MQA is minimal .  Let’s just sell the 24 bit files at the mastering session sample rate, not higher and not lower, and call it a day?  Too easy perhaps for the creativity of modern commerce.

My initial info on MQA (the claims of less data with no loss, and that it was correcting PCM) led me quickly to be skeptical about the intentions behind the initiative, especially given that video streaming money has dried up.  It’s logical corporate think to move into controlling the global audio stream. However I’m always open minded and am not a crusty cynic like some, so I gave it an open minded listen.  Not bad, not great was my impression.  It’s definitely a lossy codec, that was clear. And like Mastered for iTunes or any reduction scheme the losses are in critically important areas.    Where as mastered for iTunes is harmonically cold and loses some low volume/low end information, actually altering the groove to make everything sound like a nerdy white wedding band, MQA brightens the high-mids in the Mid section while thinning the low-mids on the Sides. There’s also some harmonic distortion which some people could find pleasing,  If I want that distortion in the master I would’ve put it there in the first place. The results of MQA I would call fatal to the source material even as they are very subtle.

 

 A real negative is the millions of dollars in DA stock that is being made obsolete with their cynical end run on proper vetting.   MQA has been targeting the weakest players in our world, the audiophiles.  And they’re targeting those most dependent on pimping new tech, the audiophile press.  Meanwhile, one sided presentations at trade shows leave no time for deep Q and A and any real discussion panels are eschewed by MQA.   The most excitement about MQA seems to be from perfectionist consumers who want that blue LED and sense of authentication, pressuring DA makers to send that licensing money to MQA and catch up with a demand invented by MQA.  A cynical marketing scheme to be kind about it.  Or as Mike Jbara told me in a written exchange, “As a team of engineers and a company, we have a POV behind our tools and that is what we talk about.”

 

I’m most concerned about the bogus claims that MQA is fixing approved masters.  Not possible, and a rude assertion to trillions of hours of hard work by teams of people making records for decades.  Pure marketing hyperbole.  Nothing in audio is perfect, there is no Original Sin, and there is no going back to the place of ideal perfection. Ultimately there is no free lunch in digital, and music production is about a constant flow forward … shaping distortions and how they play with frequency balance and transients.  When a record is first tracked, then rough mixed, mixed, revised, mastered, revised in mastering and finally approved … there is no fixing it.  Anything that changes violates 5-20 people who have all signed off.  Distortion artifacts are musically incorporated in to all music production, there is no perfection in music.  That way of thinking is bogus and anti music.  Music is flawed and that’s a good thing, it’s the humanity.   Perfection has no place in music production, it’s a dangerous myth.  MQA has no future in the world of serious engineers in my view, it’s a corporate money scheme at this point.  Yet we will see how it turns out, most people are lazy and greed goes a long way on it’s own power.

 ************************************

 

 

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Very interesting. He touches on something I mentioned earlier, "... those most dependent on pimping new tech, the audiophile press."

 

I said previously - my belief is that most press are all for MQA because it could help a very weak industry with sales, new reviews, advertising dollars, etc... It's like quantitative easing / economic stimulus plans, but for HiFi. Put a new technology into the market and it will grease the wheels of commerce. 

[jcbenten]

Deleted...

[Ralf11]

has anyone declared a HiFi Emergency on this thread yet?

[Rt66indierock]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

has anyone declared a HiFi Emergency on this thread yet?

 

Why? I thought it would be fun to see if the views on this thread could exceed MQA Ltds. 

[Ralf11]

one poster on this site has a sig. relating to HiFi Emergencies....

 

if there is one, it must be DRM

[Ralf11]

ooooops!  I mean MQA

[MetalNuts]

8 hours ago, Rt66indierock said:

 Nothing in audio is perfect, there is no Original Sin, and there is no going back to the place of ideal perfection. Ultimately there is no free lunch in digital, and music production is about a constant flow forward … shaping distortions and how they play with frequency balance and transients.  When a record is first tracked, then rough mixed, mixed, revised, mastered, revised in mastering and finally approved … there is no fixing it.  Anything that changes violates 5-20 people who have all signed off.  Distortion artifacts are musically incorporated in to all music production, there is no perfection in music.  That way of thinking is bogus and anti music.  Music is flawed and that’s a good thing, it’s the humanity.   Perfection has no place in music production, it’s a dangerous myth. 

 

 

 

I agree particularly with "Distortion artifacts are musically incorporated in to all music production" and "Music is flawed and that's a good thing, it is the humanity. Perfection has no place in music production"

 

One example of distortion artifacts are musically incorporated in to all music production I can think of electric guitarist will choose a amp with abundant distortion cos' that's the guitar sound in his mind.  To demand perfection in music production, we need perfect people doing perfect jobs all the way.  Even if that is achievable, we need perfect equipment to play it back.  Is there any perfect equipment for all audiophile?

 

 

[synn]

Last weekend, I spent 20 hours on trains with a Fiio X1 loaded with 192Khz, 48Khz and 44Khz tracks, an iPod touch with Spotify playlists (Offline) and a B&O H8 noise canceling headphone. There were some overlapping tracks, such as some from Dire Straits, Lindsey Stirling and John Metcalfe.

 

The high res tracks sounded better. But not MONUMENTALLY better. Certainly not the same difference I feel at home. I tested with Noise Canceling enabled and disabled.

 

Initially, I had said that I am struggling to find a place for MQA at home. Now I extend the same thoughts for on the road as well. Even if MQA might sound as good as 192KHz (Giving the benefit of the doubt), what good is it to me when that sounds barely better than Spotify on the road?

 

[FredericV]

18 minutes ago, Brian Lucey said:

No.  the labels are doing what they want to do, as they own the material and someone in one division is making decisions for the team.

 

So in case of your masterings, you did not sign off the MQA encode, yet Bob claims it is "exactly as played in the studio when the music was completed"

http://bobtalks.co.uk/blog/mqa-philosophy/mqa-authentication-and-quality/
 

Quote

Provenance

Provenance and technical standards are completely different things. A music file can be altered after artist release, irrespective of the technology used. Provenance is indicated when MQA is played back.

• The MQA ‘Studio’ (blue light) gives confirmation directly from mastering engineers, producers or artists to their listeners. MQA Studio authenticates that the sound you are hearing is exactly as played in the studio when the music was completed and, by implication, that this is also the definitive version of the recording at that point in time.
• A second level, ‘MQA’ (green light) is available to indicate that although the stream is genuine, provenance may be uncertain or that it is not yet the final release.

By consequence MQA must be false advertizing. A scam with DRM.
 

[rickca]

Does anyone have some insight into how the labels are measuring their ROI from MQA?  I'm wondering what it will take for them to abandon the whole thing.

 

Early in the game, you can keep saying we need more MQA content, more hardware partners, more business development investment.  At some point, some spreadsheet jockey is going to question whether this is just a money pit with no payoff.

 

 

[mcgillroy]

Nice interview and a good wrap-up of 2017 for MQA.

 

The ball is in their court. Lets see what they do. I guess nothing before CES 2018 though. Perhaps a few new licensees to show, but can't imagine any of the major players in the tech-industry will touch this toxic-pileup of an ongoing slow-motion PR-desaster.

 

My feeling is they are dead.

[asdf1000]

1 hour ago, Brian Lucey said:

No.  the labels are doing what they want to do, as they own the material and someone in one division is making decisions for the team.

 

Cheers! Always nice to have it straight from the horses mouth.

[synn]

2 hours ago, Brian Lucey said:

No.  the labels are doing what they want to do, as they own the material and someone in one division is making decisions for the team.

 

 

As a Photographer who has at times, edited pictures against my own personal tastes because of client's requests and have seen them further butchered by art directors, I completely understand this sentiment.

[asdf1000]

39 minutes ago, mcgillroy said:

My feeling is they are dead.

 

I really hope MQA dies but not just for the sake of dying  - immediately on it's death (or sooner!) I want more streaming options (other than just Qobuz) at 24bit FLAC streaming (24bit 44k/48k/88k/96k etc etc)

 

I want what @Brian Lucey and his peers have mastered in the studio, exactly as they and the artists intended us to hear it ! Not how someone else at the label wanted us to hear it ! arrrgghhh it makes me angry.

[abrxx]

So Brian Lucey is against MQA. Good to know. Although anybody who hangs around Gearslutz would have guessed this already.

 

Bob Ludwig is for it.

 

Bob Katz is supposedly on the fence (neither for or against at the moment).

 

Seems like the jury is still out.

 

As for "fixing the masters", this seems to make more sense for back catalog recordings from the early days of digital. I can understand why it can be deemed offensive to be done on a modern recording.

[Rt66indierock]

1 minute ago, abrxx said:

So Brian Lucey is against MQA. Good to know. Although anybody who hangs around Gearslutz would have guessed this already.

 

Bob Ludwig is for it.

 

Bob Katz is supposedly on the fence (neither for or against at the moment).

 

Seems like the jury is still out.

 

As for "fixing the masters", this seems to make more sense for back catalog recordings from the early days of digital. I can understand why it can be deemed offensive to be done on a modern recording.

 

Actually there are a few engineers for MQA, and a lot more against it, a large group who don't care, a large group who say it won't make me money so forget it and a few who have never heard of it. The original post MQA is Vaporware was distributed by the Recording Academy so I see the jury has come back and delivered a verdict. At best no better sound and guilty of DRM.

[Fair Hedon]

13 minutes ago, abrxx said:

So Brian Lucey is against MQA. Good to know. Although anybody who hangs around Gearslutz would have guessed this already.

 

Bob Ludwig is for it.

 

Bob Katz is supposedly on the fence (neither for or against at the moment).

 

Seems like the jury is still out.

 

As for "fixing the masters", this seems to make more sense for back catalog recordings from the early days of digital. I can understand why it can be deemed offensive to be done on a modern recording.

 

Bob Ludwig is being compensated. He was "for" every format..DSD, Multi Channel, 24 bit PCM,, the Plangent Process, and even making promo videos for "Mastered for iTunes". He will be "for" what ever brings in more income.

He goes which way the wind blows. He sold all his vinyl mastering gear in the 2000s then bought it all right back

for the "vinyl resurgence".

[labjr]

27 minutes ago, Fair Hedon said:

Bob Ludwig is being compensated. He was "for" every format..DSD, Multi Channel, 24 bit PCM,, the Plangent Process, and even making promo videos for "Mastered for iTunes". He will be "for" what ever brings in more income.

He goes which way the wind blows. He sold all his vinyl mastering gear in the 2000s then bought it all right back

for the "vinyl resurgence".

 

 

You beat me to it. Didn't Bob Ludwig say he couldn't tell the difference between the Rolling Stones master tapes and DSD? If DSD is so transparent, why do we need anything else?

 

The big publications are the same way. Whatever pays the biils. If it's passable they'll endorse it.