MQA is Vaporware

[Iving]

41 minutes ago, Archimago said:

I'm not sure it's "scientism" @Currawong. I guess it kind of depends on how one defines that term.

 

To me that's just aggressive devotion in the case of ASR to pure objectivism by some (or at least devotion to specific numbers like the SINAD perhaps). A subjectivist can also be very scientific and recognize that their subjective perceptions are still governed by science - in this case the complex science of psychoacoustics / psychological mechanisms which determine one's preferences. Subjectivists can be just as devoted to a feature with all its supposed scientific benefits like "deblurring" - for example Peter Veth and MQA!?

 

This is why I think we must remain scientific as audiophiles and embrace both sides, and never be exclusive. Science determines both the laws of the objectivist (physical sciences) and helps us understand the subjectivist (psychology, perceptual and cognitive sciences). Some folks on ASR sometimes (not always) tend toward the "left brain" engineering extreme. And I find that TAS and Stereophile reviewers tend toward the "right brain" artistic extreme into fanciful subjectivity (as exemplified by Herb Reichert's recent review).

 

Taking that middle ground is the hard part and that's where I think true enlightenment is to be achieved.

 

To be relevant to this MQA topic, that middle road of course doesn't mean we can't speak out about things that are just "objectively bad" and plain regressive for the hi-fi pursuit. This is why I think audiophiles of all stripes can agree that we just don't need MQA!

 

 

I suppose. The nice thing about headphones is that there are no room effects so the measurements can be seen as more directly relatable to sound quality. However, there are still all kinds of interesting subjective preferences to be had!

 

imo this is a wonderful, intelligent post - expounding the significance of both O and S approaches to our hobby (properly prosecuted). Don't think I have seen it all so less trivially encapsulated (unless I have forgotten some missive of my own).

 

Yes - Subjective experience can be approached scientifically. "Top down" reasoning is absolutely no less logical than "Bottom up". The experimental method can be applied to both.

 

Whatever you quite meant by "Some folks on ASR sometimes (not always) tend toward the "left brain" engineering extreme." I do very much agree that strong bias towards "left brain" vs. "right brain" can be more empirically (i.e. conceptually and measurably) expressed as a difference of personality - probably encompassed by Eysenck's P dimension aka tough- vs. tender- mindedness.

 

All the same, I quite agree with @Currawong. ASR is very much Scientism in that it embodies an evolved sociocultural movement characterised by ribaldry and machismo far more than it promulgates Science proper - meaning respect for that discipline's principles and methods. Anybody arriving suitably equipped on that Forum can be chased away if they don't sing from the established hymn book. ASR is definitely a personality cult. Amir is just as likely to jump into discussions with his proud (and defensive) self as much as he is an informed and thoughtful contribution (of which he is more than capable, if only he could restrain his superciliousness).

 

Yes indeed! I do very much think that we ought to be able to talk about things that are "regressive for the hi-fi pursuit" without being marginalised by ignorance and childishness. MQA should be a watershed for exactly that kind of permissiveness.

 

What a splendid and relevant post. Thank you

[Archimago]

27 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

But, measuring headphones is a soup sandwhich right now. Most of the guys doing it can't agree on the right procedure or equipment :~)

Agree...

 

Which I think is a nice reflection of the fact that there is no one standard head/pinna/auditory canal/perceptual mechanism. Lots to potentially explore but I suspect that ultimately it will remain a "soup sandwich" reflective of Floyd Toole's "circle of confusion" as applied to the idiosyncrasies and complexities of human physique and perceptual preferences even without the room in the way. One can spend insane amounts of money on all kinds of standardized headphone test equipment; not sure to what end unless one is in the research/academic world developing devices...

 

Even if one spent $$$$$ on test equipment, I don't think results will ever translate to universal approval nor (more importantly) the sound recommendations directly applicable to everyone aiming to enjoy music. That's why IMO, work by @JoshM recently using his EARS and SBAF curve is good enough to give us a sense of relative sound signatures (and why I also have my EARS for testing and not particularly keen to spend money to upgrade). The rest is up to us to try listening for ourselves ;-).

[The Computer Audiophile]

12 minutes ago, Archimago said:

Even if one spent $$$$$ on test equipment, I don't think results will ever translate to universal approval nor (more importantly) the sound recommendations directly applicable to everyone aiming to enjoy music. That's why IMO, work by @JoshM recently using his EARS and SBAF curve is good enough to give us a sense of relative sound signatures (and why I also have my EARS for testing and not particularly keen to spend money to upgrade). The rest is up to us to try listening for ourselves ;-).

Totally agree.

[botrytis]

20 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I've been thinking about this one. Perhaps it has something to do with who exposed the falsehoods. How can one hammer against online forums and forum members, then credit them for anything, especially something that could've been seen long ago? That's a rhetorical question obviously.

 

My basic answer to this query....

 

 

[botrytis]

18 hours ago, Archimago said:

 

Go for it @Rt66indierock. You've been all over the financial side for years... Some nice, succinct questions should hopefully get him talking. Then again, he might not have permission to say much on behalf of Tidal.

 

@firedog, for the record, both Andrew and myself are doctors. I don't think either of us have any concerns about our careers. Looks like we just followed different muses, priorities, and philosophies when it came to the audiophile hobby and writings. 😉

 

Quite interesting as the speaker designer/owner, for the brand Buggtussel, was an ENT. A very nice gent to boot. I had an audio event, at my house in MI, where he came in brought 3 sets of speakers with him, 2 were prototypes of a more inexpensive model line. The main speakers were 1/2 TL designs, and they were named for parts of the inner ear too. Below - the Buggtussel Amygdala 😁

 

 

I, myself have a Ph.D. in fungal biochemistry. Cheers!  

[Rt66indierock]

On the AMA chat with Jesse said there will be high resolution FLAC soon.

[JoeWhip]

Is that Jesse from Tidal?

 

[Rt66indierock]

32 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Is that Jesse from Tidal?

 

 

Yes

[MikeyFresh]

2 hours ago, Iving said:

What a splendid and relevant post. Thank you

Agreed, and I'll say the exact same thing for your follow-up post as well!

[bambadoo]

[KeenObserver]

Where does this leave 2L?

[JoeWhip]

Since 2L records in DXD, they will be fine.

[Cebolla]

Can we really trust TIDAL to use a 'true' hi-res source and not just simply resample their current MQA source files for the new hi-res FLAC streams (especially as they'll likely be keeping their MQA streams going, even if it's just for an interim period)? They have a track record for doing just that on the 16bit/44.1kHz HiFi tier for their so called 'lossless' CD-res streams.

[GoldenOne]

I'm very glad that Tidal will be adding native hires lossless.
Qobuz might be in a bit of trouble though if that ends up working well.

BUT, my main concern is that currently a lot of 44.1khz tracks on Tidal are only available in MQA. You cannot stream lossless regardless of subscription tier or settings 

https://goldensound.audio/2021/11/29/tidal-hifi-is-not-lossless/

 

Hopefully this update also means that the lossless versions of these tracks will actually be restored. Not much good having native hires lossless if most of your library still isn't available losslessly

[bogi]

16 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

Hopefully this update also means that the lossless versions of these tracks will actually be restored.

This question was raised on reddit discussion more times but TIDAL_Jesse let it unanswered.

[GoldenOne]

Just now, bogi said:

This question was raised on reddit discussion more times but TIDAL_Jesse let it unanswered.

That's not a great sign

[Archimago]

37 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I'm very glad that Tidal will be adding native hires lossless.
Qobuz might be in a bit of trouble though if that ends up working well.

BUT, my main concern is that currently a lot of 44.1khz tracks on Tidal are only available in MQA. You cannot stream lossless regardless of subscription tier or settings 

https://goldensound.audio/2021/11/29/tidal-hifi-is-not-lossless/

 

Hopefully this update also means that the lossless versions of these tracks will actually be restored. Not much good having native hires lossless if most of your library still isn't available losslessly

 

Any idea how many % of the 16/44.1's might be "infected" by MQA @GoldenOne? Hopefully not too large a number and maybe in time gets diluted out as some might get replaced with remasters and such. At least hopefully the HiFi+ tier's hi-res library should be unmolested. I'm sure folks will be keeping an eye on that!

 

Regardless, this is good news and another nail in the MQA coffin. Will be interesting to see if there are any buyers for their "technology" now that even the major user is bowing out.

 

Having said this, I want to see it actually happen before I sign up for Tidal (again). ;-)

 

On a side note, for us Canadian Roon users, this is great news that Qobuz is supposedly coming out on April 19th, and with Tidal "soon" going non-MQA/lossless, might finally have options.

[bogi]

4 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

That's not a great sign

Maybe they need to get many user requests to classify it as a 'community wish'. They may need enough strong argumentation to make a  decision.

[GoldenOne]

4 minutes ago, Archimago said:

 

Any idea how many % of the 16/44.1's might be "infected" by MQA @GoldenOne? Hopefully not too large a number and maybe in time gets diluted out as some might get replaced with remasters and such. At least hopefully the HiFi+ tier's hi-res library should be unmolested. I'm sure folks will be keeping an eye on that!

 

Regardless, this is good news and another nail in the MQA coffin. Will be interesting to see if there are any buyers for their "technology" now that even the major user is bowing out.

 

Having said this, I want to see it actually happen before I sign up for Tidal (again). ;-)

 

On a side note, for us Canadian Roon users, this is great news that Qobuz is supposedly coming out on April 19th, and with Tidal "soon" going non-MQA/lossless, might finally have options.

I'm not sure what percentage of the library is MQA now. Though you can easily tell as the track will have the 'MASTER' badge next to it in the browser area.

Every MASTER track I've tested streamed the MQA file just without full signaling, even on hifi tier or with the 'master' quality setting not enabled. I've not retested in a few months though, but will again once Tidal starts to roll out the hires content to see if this issue has been addressed.

[Archimago]

8 minutes ago, GoldenOne said:

I'm not sure what percentage of the library is MQA now. Though you can easily tell as the track will have the 'MASTER' badge next to it in the browser area.

Every MASTER track I've tested streamed the MQA file just without full signaling, even on hifi tier or with the 'master' quality setting not enabled. I've not retested in a few months though, but will again once Tidal starts to roll out the hires content to see if this issue has been addressed.

 

Yuck. That's not good.

 

I wonder how this worked with Tidal. They must have the usual licensing arrangements with the music labels. So would this licensing agreement then allow them access to the same lossless source as Apple or Amazon or Qobuz? Did MQA act as some kind of "middleman" for the encoding and storage process? If so, are the original unencoded files with whomever did the MQA encoding, and can Tidal then demand that original pre-encoded data to copy over the "infected" files?

 

Anyhow, I hope Tidal sorts this wasteful (time & money) silliness out and clean up their mess without too much pain and suffering for themselves or the subscribers.

 

Would be interesting if there are any Tidal "insiders" who know the system help explain how this all worked!

[loop7]

If, at some point, MQA content becomes generally unavailable, I wonder when manufacturers will discontinue support and placing the MQA icon on new products?

[Archimago]

6 hours ago, Iving said:

 

imo this is a wonderful, intelligent post - expounding the significance of both O and S approaches to our hobby (properly prosecuted). Don't think I have seen it all so less trivially encapsulated (unless I have forgotten some missive of my own).

 

Yes - Subjective experience can be approached scientifically. "Top down" reasoning is absolutely no less logical than "Bottom up". The experimental method can be applied to both.

 

Whatever you quite meant by "Some folks on ASR sometimes (not always) tend toward the "left brain" engineering extreme." I do very much agree that strong bias towards "left brain" vs. "right brain" can be more empirically (i.e. conceptually and measurably) expressed as a difference of personality - probably encompassed by Eysenck's P dimension aka tough- vs. tender- mindedness.

 

All the same, I quite agree with @Currawong. ASR is very much Scientism in that it embodies an evolved sociocultural movement characterised by ribaldry and machismo far more than it promulgates Science proper - meaning respect for that discipline's principles and methods. Anybody arriving suitably equipped on that Forum can be chased away if they don't sing from the established hymn book. ASR is definitely a personality cult. Amir is just as likely to jump into discussions with his proud (and defensive) self as much as he is an informed and thoughtful contribution (of which he is more than capable, if only he could restrain his superciliousness).

 

Yes indeed! I do very much think that we ought to be able to talk about things that are "regressive for the hi-fi pursuit" without being marginalised by ignorance and childishness. MQA should be a watershed for exactly that kind of permissiveness.

 

What a splendid and relevant post. Thank you

 

Well said @Iving.  I like how you put it:

 

Quote

ASR is very much Scientism in that it embodies an evolved sociocultural movement characterised by ribaldry and machismo far more than it promulgates Science proper - meaning respect for that discipline's principles and methods.

 

In that sense and definition of "scientism", I can appreciate where you're coming from. I've had comments from some very knowledgeable audiophiles who have much to add to discussions feeling disheartened on ASR as well over the years. It's not that they can't hold their own in a technical debate, but rather they seem to describe it as not "fun" for various reasons. That's really unfortunate.

 

While I like the database of measurements built up over there and find it a very helpful resource with company representatives adding to discussions, the "machismo", as you put it, I find interesting.

 

Without I hope being disparaging, I see this as a cultural thing and an important reminder that whenever we desire to build community, it is not just for the sake of good science or engineering or even just plain "truth-telling", but there is a need to engender some level of grace, a sense of inclusion and benevolence even when we're pissed off. I see @FredericV put up a little video the other day with Sheldon doing his shirt folding... We can laugh about that Asperger-ish portrayal, but it would be no fun if we were all so rigid like that. Not to say everyone on ASR is like that, but I've certainly had that sense on occasion (and that's what others tell me).

 

Yeah, then there's Amir's part in developing that culture. For example, I had a look at the "MQA entering into administration" thread that was closed. After 13 pages (as opposed to our 1030 pages here!), there wasn't anything contentious that people were saying that we wouldn't say here! What a strange decision, again reflective of, shall we say, a "complex" character 🤨 with potentially unpredictable (thus uncomfortable) motivations.

 

Of course that's not to say that @The Computer Audiophile isn't a complex guy. Just that I think with Chris, we have a better sense of a more balanced and just genuinely nice dude... Not to butter you up, Chris, just being appreciative of a more normal human being. 😉

[botrytis]

11 minutes ago, Archimago said:

 

Well said @Iving.  I like how you put it:

 

 

In that sense and definition of "scientism", I can appreciate where you're coming from. I've had comments from some very knowledgeable audiophiles who have much to add to discussions feeling disheartened on ASR as well over the years. It's not that they can't hold their own in a technical debate, but rather they seem to describe it as not "fun" for various reasons. That's really unfortunate.

 

While I like the database of measurements built up over there and find it a very helpful resource with company representatives adding to discussions, the "machismo", as you put it, I find interesting.

 

Without I hope being disparaging, I see this as a cultural thing and an important reminder that whenever we desire to build community, it is not just for the sake of good science or engineering or even just plain "truth-telling", but there is a need to engender some level of grace, a sense of inclusion and benevolence even when we're pissed off. I see @FredericV put up a little video the other day with Sheldon doing his shirt folding... We can laugh about that Asperger-ish portrayal, but it would be no fun if we were all so rigid like that. Not to say everyone on ASR is like that, but I've certainly had that sense on occasion (and that's what others tell me).

 

Yeah, then there's Amir's part in developing that culture. For example, I had a look at the "MQA entering into administration" thread that was closed. After 13 pages (as opposed to our 1030 pages here!), there wasn't anything contentious that people were saying that we wouldn't say here! What a strange decision, again reflective of, shall we say, a "complex" character 🤨 with potentially unpredictable (thus uncomfortable) motivations.

 

Of course that's not to say that @The Computer Audiophile isn't a complex guy. Just that I think with Chris, we have a better sense of a more balanced and just genuinely nice dude... Not to butter you up, Chris, just being appreciative of a more normal human being. 😉

 

Chris is from Minnesota - that explains it all.

[JoeWhip]

And just think, he is oh so close to Canada, where everyone is even nicer, except some noteworthy hockey players!😎

[botrytis]