A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[CJH]

cat6man:

Using HQP desktop on an older I7 laptop with music on network nas, both connected to network switch along with router in storage room. Switch is powered with Hynes constant current regulator. In music room  I control using HQP control app from a small laptop. uRendu is used in HQP NAA mode.

Tried another experiment last night. Added a 2nd switch (powered via double regulated MPaudio) with fiber in-between to isolate the I7 from the nas and router--no improvement and actually it seemed worse. Like the addition made the sound fuzzier with slightly less distinction between instruments. Music is a piece with 3 cellos called Dialogue. 

Still waiting for power connectors for the Slimrun.

CJH

[lmitche]

11 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

Larry - just for the record I have done that too. Highlighting a keyword from my previous post. 

I have tried LT3045 as well as a much better power supply. Good LPS definitely helps, but USB storage just does not work well in my system. But the important part is that this is system dependent.

My system is using single server high powered CPU(s), and is tweaked differently than others. What works on my single CPU Euphony/Stylus server does not work on my dual CPU Windows/Roon server and vice versa. I have no reason to believe that what works for me would work on a dual box server/streamer configuration running AudioLinux. So an external HDD enclosure connected with a SlimRun USB cable and powered with a good LPS (i.e. LT3045 or better) may work very well in some systems.

 

The ultimate local storage for me is either a PCIe Optane card or what @Nsxturbo just posted:

I would probably go even a step further and use Apacer wide temp industrial NVME M.2 drives. It would give me less storage but I can install multiple cards.

 

As far as optical isolation goes, I have found that it always changes the sound. And the sound is never changed for good only. Many network experiments on my network have been done recently, and there is only one place where putting optical isolation was 100% improvement without any negative impact. And that is between my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter and my WiFi access point - this is a fiber optical cable that is not on my streaming path, but galvanically isolates the noise of my WiFi from my router (which is in my streaming path). 

 

That's at least my experience so far. 

Hi Nenon,

 

Sorry to hear the Monoprice USB Fiber solution did not work for you. Too bad it was not match for your system. I had read about Roy's success with Monoprice and the Taiko Audio Extreme.  After learning that a friend was able to duplicate that success with his NUC i7 server, I thought to give it a try. I am happy I did.  With the second one in place the combination has really delivered.

 

Yes, Emile used the ASUS 4 M.2 NVME slot board in the Extreme. I don't know which NVME sticks he uses. This is a good solution if you have a free direct to CPU PCIE slot. I do not.

 

I do have a free m.2 slot here and keep my eye on the $859 Sabrent 4TB ROCKET NVMe. That would cover my storage capacity requirements, but I don't know if it will suck life out music the way SATA SSDs have done in the past. In any case, listening to the difference between music playback from Optane based tracks and HDD based tracks with the Monoprice USB, there is no way I can justify a $859 expense. There is just no perceivable difference in performance. A NAS solution was a step down in SQ, so it has been disabled in Roon.

 

On the topic of economics, you should understand that my goal is never to build the "best" system.  I can't afford that. Instead my goal is to find the 20% that can be spent to get 95% to 99% to the best system. Competing with Taiko Audio, Roy or yourself is of no interest. If anything I aim to learn from all of you. Instead my goal has always been to find and share simple, practical, relatively inexpensive enhancements that improve SQ. Bridged NICs, small Optane cards hosting the OS, booting NUCs from USB sticks, JSSG360 DC and JSSG USB are a few examples that either free or <$100. In that spirit I shared my experience with the two used Monoprice USB Fiber cables purchased from Ebay for $75 each last week. That was the spirit of this thread for a long time.

 

I believe this "Pareto Principle" approach to DIY audio enhancements is shared by many others. Eurodriver and Jud were here a few years ago, and Ed called it "Guerrilla Audio". This fits. (Too bad guerrillaaudio.com is taken. I have to find a new name for nuckleheadaudio).

 

Thanks for sharing your innovations here. The Apacer memory was a terrific find.  Your detailed descriptions of your builds have been fun to read. i look forward to seeing more.

 

Larry

 

 

 

 

[bodiebill]

15 hours ago, lmitche said:

That's the same idea as the Monoprice Slimrun USB.  Is there an input for external power? I can't find one.

 

Larry

 

No there is not.

I decided I do not need this as I will only use it for my HDD which will reside in the fuse box to be powered by a 5V battery pack. I can even turn that off / detach that, when playing.

I will not use the cable for my DAC so I figured I do not need VBUS power.

[bodiebill]

On 5/31/2020 at 4:19 AM, lmitche said:

With some effort, external linear power supplies and fiber, one can make a USB hard disk sound practically as good as a NVME Optane drive for music playback.

 

Made curious by this thread (thanks, @Imitche and @Nenon) I just compared the following in my 1-box network-less wtfplay setup:

 

(1) external 4TB usb 2.5" hdd with 5V battery power, connected while playing

(2) same as (1) but disconnected while playing

(3) 16GB optane nvme drive

 

Knowing that wtfplay copies each track to RAM and plays it from there, I went back between (2) and (3) many times, reluctant to believe that they would be different. And indeed they are very very close. But I still think I slightly prefer (3), if not for convenience, for SQ. If not my imagination, what else could that be?

 

(1) is also not far behind, but this could partly be due to the slight high noise the hdd produces.

I do not rule out that (1) will equal (2) when the hdd is removed to the fuse box and connected with the 15m fiber-usb cable. We will see...

[lmitche]

1 hour ago, bodiebill said:

 

Made curious by this thread (thanks, @Imitche and @Nenon) I just compared the following in my 1-box network-less wtfplay setup:

 

(1) external 4TB usb 2.5" hdd with 5V battery power, connected while playing

(2) same as (1) but disconnected while playing

(3) 16GB optane nvme drive

 

Knowing that wtfplay copies each track to RAM and plays it from there, I went back between (2) and (3) many times, reluctant to believe that they would be different. And indeed they are very very close. But I still think I slightly prefer (3), if not for convenience, for SQ. If not my imagination, what else could that be?

 

(1) is also not far behind, but this could partly be due to the slight high noise the hdd produces.

I do not rule out that (1) will equal (2) when the hdd is removed to the fuse box and connected with the 15m fiber-usb cable. We will see...

Hi Bodiebill,

 

My hard disks are the big 3.5 inch variety that take 12 and 5 volts. In a USB 3 enclosure the 12 volts comes from the dc input and the 5 volt comes from the USB cable. This separates the drive motor from heads, actuators, and signal electronics.

 

A 2.5 inch hard drive has never been tested here, so your report is helpful.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

[kennyb123]

15 hours ago, Nenon said:

 

As far as optical isolation goes, I have found that it always changes the sound. And the sound is never changed for good only. Many network experiments on my network have been done recently, and there is only one place where putting optical isolation was 100% improvement without any negative impact. And that is between my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter and my WiFi access point - this is a fiber optical cable that is not on my streaming path, but galvanically isolates the noise of my WiFi from my router (which is in my streaming path). 

 

That's at least my experience so far. 

 

Timely post as I've recently been experimenting with using optical further upstream to see if it can provide further benefits.  The downstream optical run is now at the point where I'd say it's fully positive.  Optimizing it has left me with a few leftover pairs of SFPs.   I didn't think to try these outside the streaming path but should do so given what you reported. 

[cat6man]

20 hours ago, lmitche said:

Good idea.

 

With two Monoprice USB Slimruns here, SQ has taken another jump. I don't use them for the USB DAC connection. Instead they connect a 3.5 inch HDD in a USB 3.0 enclosure and a Tplink USB 3.0  NIC to two CPU direct USB3 ports on my server. It is a tight fit. My two are each powered with a dual serial LT3045 chain of 1 amp regulators.

 

On well known tracks I'm hearing more detail, openness, clarity and depth. Image density has increased again. I've had to lower the volume by 2 db. LOL. The Monoprice cables deliver.

 

Tomorrow, more experiments on power options.

 

Larry

 

Larry,

 

so, you're running

 

external hdd ==> wired usb 3.0 ==> slimrun female ==> slimrun male (powered lt3045) ==> server

[lmitche]

2 minutes ago, cat6man said:

 

Larry,

 

so, you're running

 

external hdd ==> wired usb 3.0 ==> slimrun female ==> slimrun male (powered lt3045) ==> server

Close:

 

external hdd ==> usb 3.0 male type A to male type B adapter==> slimrun female ==> slimrun male (powered lt3045) ==> server

 

[cat6man]

2 hours ago, lmitche said:

Close:

 

external hdd ==> usb 3.0 male type A to male type B adapter==> slimrun female ==> slimrun male (powered lt3045) ==> server

 

 

got it.

thanks......now if only the slimrun were not all sold out.......

[flkin]

On 6/2/2020 at 9:05 AM, Nenon said:

 

Larry - just for the record I have done that too. Highlighting a keyword from my previous post. 

I have tried LT3045 as well as a much better power supply. Good LPS definitely helps, but USB storage just does not work well in my system. But the important part is that this is system dependent.

My system is using single server high powered CPU(s), and is tweaked differently than others. What works on my single CPU Euphony/Stylus server does not work on my dual CPU Windows/Roon server and vice versa. I have no reason to believe that what works for me would work on a dual box server/streamer configuration running AudioLinux. So an external HDD enclosure connected with a SlimRun USB cable and powered with a good LPS (i.e. LT3045 or better) may work very well in some systems.

 

The ultimate local storage for me is either a PCIe Optane card or what @Nsxturbo just posted:

I would probably go even a step further and use Apacer wide temp industrial NVME M.2 drives. It would give me less storage but I can install multiple cards.

 

As far as optical isolation goes, I have found that it always changes the sound. And the sound is never changed for good only. Many network experiments on my network have been done recently, and there is only one place where putting optical isolation was 100% improvement without any negative impact. And that is between my Ubiquiti EdgeRouter and my WiFi access point - this is a fiber optical cable that is not on my streaming path, but galvanically isolates the noise of my WiFi from my router (which is in my streaming path). 

 

That's at least my experience so far. 

The SlimRun optical usb cable doesn’t work for me too. Between my Pink Faun 2.16x streamer and my Vinnie Rossi DAC2 through a Habst Ultra III USB or a short connector from UpTone, it doesn’t add any benefits and adds a harder sound  without more detail. 
 

I’m thinking the clock inside or the conversion isn’t all that good. After lending it to friends for their input I returned it. 

[lmitche]

Three things to consider:

 

1) If you are connecting one of these to a DAC, it is likely best to plug your existing USB cable into the female extension end of the cable. Next place the MP SR Fiber connector the full length of your USB cable away from the DAC. USB 3 ports leak EMI/RFI like crazy, so this practice will reduce it's impact. The short USBPCB is great, but it's length may be a problem. Later today, I am going to replace the short USB 3 adapter shown above with a 1 meter USB cable to access the impact.

 

2) The USBPCB is also a USB 2 not USB 3 device, so if the MP SR Fiber /USPCB combo is used with a USB 3 device it will slow down the connection to USB 2 speeds. For a USB 2 DAC that is fine, but with a hard disk or network connection it could be a problem.

 

3) You need a very clean power supply for this cable. An Uptone LPS1.2 is ideal. Think of the remote end as an endpoint, (which it is) so power the cable appropriately.

[lmitche]

6 hours ago, lmitche said:

Later today, I am going to replace the short USB 3 adapter shown above with a 1 meter USB cable to access the impact.

Connected to the hard disk enclosure, there is no question, things sound better with the short USB 3.0 adapter.

 

I don't know about a DAC connection.  YMMV.

 

Larry

[KMan]

I have a MP SlimRun connected directly from a i7 NUC Server to Chord DAVE. I use a LPS 1.2 to power the MP SR and the the LPS 1.2 's energizing supply is plugged into a different dedicated circuit than the one powering the rest of my setup. The female USB end of the MP SR connects to DAVE via USPCB (which I found to be better than Lush 1 USB cable). In my setup the MP SR + USPCB sounds better (cleaner) than Lush 1 direct to DAVE. I do not hear added harshness either. I have the unused loops of of the MP SR  wrapped in a aluminium foil and placed it away from both the server and the DAC. At some point I plan to try the Sablon USB cable  instead of USPCB.

 

The effectiveness of MP SR could come down to both good PSU and  the DAC too (i.e how the DAC handles jitter from the not so great clock of MP SR). 

 

The MP SR direct from the i7 NUC server sounded better (more air and depth, more present) than when connected from a Pentium NUC endpoint.

 

[CJH]

Following up on my previous post. I received mini USB adapter to power my MP SR with a double regulated MP Audio 5V supply. This completely solved my sonic problems running HQP Control from a second Laptop. Sound is now consistent with or without HQP Control. Experiencing improvements in bass control, depth and width of soundstage, spacing between instruments and tonality resulting in a more natural, less mechanical presentation. One surprise was how good upsampled PCM now sounds, though sampling to DSD 256 still edges it out. One of my favorite test tracks is Zigeunerweisen, from Uncommon Ritual--Edgar Meyer.

[MagnusH]

Here is a little USB tweak I made to a cheap TP-Link network card. Nothing to fancy, I just cut the 3.3v connection to PCIe and patched in a linear voltage regulator board and a connector to get external power (currently using a battery pack, 4*AA). It made a nice improvement to the sound though, calmer and more fluent. 

 

But I would like to take this further, maybe a better clock? Or cut the ground connection to the PCIe and make the card floating (will the card work after?). Suggestions are welcome 🙂

[John769]

On 6/3/2020 at 10:59 PM, KMan said:

I have a MP SlimRun connected directly from a i7 NUC Server to Chord DAVE. I use a LPS 1.2 to power the MP SR

Was that a NUC7i7DNHE?  I tried a MP slimrun to my NHE's (as endpoint) front and rear USB ports, with and without an Sbooster Vbus2 isolator. That was connected to a RME ADI2DAC with USPCB or regular cable, with and without a 2amp PSU connected to the MP. I tried reversing the female end of the MP to be near the endpoint, as reported by @ray-dude, using adapters. It didn't work in any configuration but often weird knocking noises were audible. The assumption is that the RME DAC and MP are not compatible.

 

This took place a few weeks ago and it didn't occur to me to try the MR with my external USB storage to server, as reported by @lmitche with great results. Maybe next time...😄

[Peter Avgeris]

5 hours ago, MagnusH said:

Here is a little USB tweak I made to a cheap TP-Link network card. Nothing to fancy, I just cut the 3.3v connection to PCIe and patched in a linear voltage regulator board and a connector to get external power (currently using a battery pack, 4*AA). It made a nice improvement to the sound though, calmer and more fluent. 

 

But I would like to take this further, maybe a better clock? Or cut the ground connection to the PCIe and make the card floating (will the card work after?). Suggestions are welcome 🙂

I see that you have made a nice little mod on this board.

It is fantastic!

Did you cut only one trace on the pcb? If I ma correct there exist 4x 3.3V connectors on PCIe interface.

I also see that you desoldered the LEDs. I hope that you got really nice sound out of this mod...

[MagnusH]

56 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I see that you have made a nice little mod on this board.

It is fantastic!

Did you cut only one trace on the pcb? If I ma correct there exist 4x 3.3V connectors on PCIe interface.

I also see that you desoldered the LEDs. I hope that you got really nice sound out of this mod...

I actually only cut one because the card uses the 3.3v aux, the 4 normal 3.3v was not used. No idea if the removal of the LEDs improved the sound, but they are useless to have anyway so might as well remove them (and since I use battery as power it will last a little longer).

 

The sound improvement was similar to a LAN isolator from Pink Faun I bought a few weeks ago, more rounded and fluid sound with less harsh high frequencies (I still use the LAN isolator so this was in addition to it's improvement).

[MagnusH]

I also just ordered a 25Mhz NDK NZ2520SD for $6 (but shipment $30 from Japan), going to connect that to the regulator board and then the clock output to the little black chip's clock input and cut the connection to the old clock. Lets see if it makes any difference (the clock has very low phase noise).

[KMan]

2 hours ago, John769 said:

Was that a NUC7i7DNHE?  I tried a MP slimrun to my NHE's (as endpoint) front and rear USB ports, with and without an Sbooster Vbus2 isolator. That was connected to a RME ADI2DAC with USPCB or regular cable, with and without a 2amp PSU connected to the MP. I tried reversing the female end of the MP to be near the endpoint, as reported by @ray-dude, using adapters. It didn't work in any configuration but often weird knocking noises were audible. The assumption is that the RME DAC and MP are not compatible.

Yes it is a NUC7i7DNHE in Akasa case running AL that Larry built for me. It worked both the front and back USB ports. If you are using USPCB, did you make sure the VBUS was on? some DACS require VBUS for initial handshake. 

[John769]

1 hour ago, KMan said:

If you are using USPCB, did you make sure the VBUS was on?

not sure but it also didn't work with a regular cable with VBUS active. Did you cut the VBUS from your NUC USB output in order to achieve galvanic isolation (in conjunction with the LPS 1.2 powering the Slimline)?  

[KMan]

2 minutes ago, John769 said:

not sure but it also didn't work with a regular cable with VBUS active. Did you cut the VBUS from your NUC USB output in order to achieve galvanic isolation (in conjunction with the LPS 1.2 powering the SL)?  

No I did not, my understanding was that by powering the MP SL, VBUS of the NUC is not longer being used

[Peter Avgeris]

2 hours ago, MagnusH said:

I also just ordered a 25Mhz NDK NZ2520SD for $6 (but shipment $30 from Japan), going to connect that to the regulator board and then the clock output to the little black chip's clock input and cut the connection to the old clock. Lets see if it makes any difference (the clock has very low phase noise).

That's so nice.

Please inform us of the upgrade as soon as you complete the process.

I had uploaded a little article about this card about a month ago. Did you already have this hard or maybe you read that post and you decided to get it?

If you read the article and then you decided the upgrade, then I am very curious/interested of your findings. I hope I'm not the only one here... Personally I liked this little card a lot!

 

Thanks for your update.

[MagnusH]

14 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I had uploaded a little article about this card about a month ago. Did you already have this hard or maybe you read that post and you decided to get it?

No, just lucky 🙂 , I just bought a cheap card on the nearest shop that sells those things

 

It will take a while before I can do more upgrades to it, but I plan to insert some Panasonic high-quality caps at the output of the voltage regulator board, and as I already mentioned replace the clock with a very low phase-noise 25Mhz NDK clock. Lets see if it makes any differences, but at least now I feel much less inclined to buy some expensive HiFi switch or NIC!

[John769]

4 hours ago, KMan said:

No I did not, my understanding was that by powering the MP SL, VBUS of the NUC is not longer being used

I think it is used, which is why Romaz disabled it via the jumper on his USB card.  And why I used the vbus 2 isolator into my NUC. Failing that, a USB A male to USB A female adapter, with the 5V pin broken might do the trick? You are happy with the sound anyway, so probably not worth sweating over.-)