A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming

[motberg]

On 6/3/2020 at 1:05 AM, lmitche said:

Hi Bodiebill,

 

My hard disks are the big 3.5 inch variety that take 12 and 5 volts. In a USB 3 enclosure the 12 volts comes from the dc input and the 5 volt comes from the USB cable. This separates the drive motor from heads, actuators, and signal electronics.

 

A 2.5 inch hard drive has never been tested here, so your report is helpful.

 

Thanks,

 

Larry

I am using the same (I am pretty sure I copied your HDD and case purchases a couple years back), 3.5 inch 4TB with 12V external case, 12V LT3045 SR x 2A, Original model Intona Industrial between the server and HDD case and Matrix Element H USB pcie card (standard LPS). This sounds much better than SATA SSD (in the control PC - Jplay 2 box system). I get the feeling the Matrix card is key in my system.

[nonesup]

I have received my Finisar, but I would like to make the comparison with Planet Tech. Could you tell me the exact Planet Tech model that I have to order?

[beautiful music]

46 minutes ago, nonesup said:

I have received my Finisar, but I would like to make the comparison with Planet Tech. Could you tell me the exact Planet Tech model that I have to order?

 

Can you please post the website link that you bought your Finisar from it?

[nonesup]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Finisar-FTLF1324P2BTL-MC-LW-4km-4gb-FC-1000Base-LX-Ethernet-SFP-560xAvailable/172413442482?item=172413442482&pageci=0827c024-d116-4f76-af2c-6e4b48884b34&redirect=mobile

[nonesup]

I just saw that your current stock is zero

[Peter Avgeris]

14 hours ago, Nsxturbo said:

 

Great report!

 

I recently received my 2nd Buffalo BS-GS2016 to add to my 1st one, which currently is just running on a 12v linear supply and connected to a EtherRegen clocked with the Mutec REF10. I’m actually liking the Finisar transceivers over the Planet Tech’s.(more air and delicacy without loss of detail or dynamics.)

 

Looks like I’ve got more experimenting to do besides the 2nd linear supplied Buffalo😉 I might as well try replacing one of the Buffalo’s 25Mhz clocks with a sCLK-EX 25Mhz synthesized output fed by the REF10, since I already those two pieces in the stable. That will give us all another data point!

I have tried to find the BS-GS2016 model but it is absolutely unavailable in Europe. Not a single shop has it available, so I got a pair of the same but with 8 ports, without SFP, as I am not interested in SFP at all. I got the BS-GS2008 whoch should normally be the same but with fewer ports (also not needed). I am expecting to receive them soon so I will let you know of my impressions.

[HeeBroG]

Forgive my ignorance but the BS-GS2016 has been confirmed by some here as using the same board as the Melco S100 yet the latter is a 8 port device whereas the former is a 16 port switch.

I would have thought the BS-GS2008 would be more like-for-like and therefore perform much the same as the BS-GS2016.

Would that be a correct assumption?

 

G

[Nsxturbo]

13 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I have tried to find the BS-GS2016 model but it is absolutely unavailable in Europe. Not a single shop has it available,

Crazy thing about the availability, because I’m in the US but actually got my last one on EBay from Italy! Go figure.

[Peter Avgeris]

11 minutes ago, Nsxturbo said:

Crazy thing about the availability, because I’m in the US but actually got my last one on EBay from Italy! Go figure.

It is out of stock throughout the planet. It seems that the HiFi maniacs have gone crazy with this Melco switch. The S100 model is like the BS-GS2016. Not being interested in SFP at all, I think that 2008 is still preferred, inside they are the same but with fewer ports and (logically) less noise. I will try it and will let you know further.

 

FYI, I have been notified by the greatest network guru in Greece that the audiophiles *MUST* purchase two net switches and *NEVER* one. Stacked switches is definitely the way to go if they are used in a HiFi system. A local friend had purchased 1x S100 and when he tried to stack a second identical machine, he was shocked in awe! One machine is not enough, as dual switches help cancelling out the induced noise instead of trying to filter it. Noise filtration can't be effective because HF always finds a way to pass through. This is what I have been informed by the greatest network guru here. He also told me that anyone who buys very expensive switches does not know what he's doing. It is preferable to stack two cheap machines instead of getting one very expensive unit. This is what exactly he told me about this issue.

[Nenon]

44 minutes ago, HeeBroG said:

Forgive my ignorance but the BS-GS2016 has been confirmed by some here as using the same board as the Melco S100 yet the latter is a 8 port device whereas the former is a 16 port switch.

I would have thought the BS-GS2008 would be more like-for-like and therefore perform much the same as the BS-GS2016.

Would that be a correct assumption?

 

I am not sure about that. The Melco board is exactly the same as the BS-GS2016 board. But it's installed in a chassis that does not have opening for the top 8 ports, so you only see the bottom 8 ports. 

People who have been tinkering with the Buffalo BS-GS2016 before the Melco existed have noticed that using the bottom ports sounded better than the top. That's how the Buffalo BS-GS2016A version appeared for audio. My guess is this was the reason Melco did not expose the top 8 ports at all. I have not seen an 8-port Buffalo switch for audio... the Japanese audiophiles prefered the 16-port Buffalo with plastic caps covering the top 8 ports. 

The other thing Melco suggests is to use the first 4 ports on the Melco (the first 8 ports on the Buffalo) for your streamer and the second half of the ports for the rest of the network. They also configure the first half of the ports as 100Mbps, but that does not work well for me. The second half of the ports are 1Gbps, and they suggest those for the rest of your network. 

This particular Broadcom chip must be playing a big role of the sound signature of the Melco/Buffalo. Haven't seen a block diagram to understand the switch fabric architecture, but the isolation between some of the ports, might be playing a big role here. 

 

The Broadcom chip is the most expensive part in that switch. It's almost $80 on Mouser if you buy it in the hundreds / thousands, which makes me think it is at least half of the cost of the entire switch. It does not make sense that Buffalo would be using the same 16G chip for their 8 port switch and sell it for half the price, or nearly the cost of the 16G chip itself. That's not how these companies make their profit. We are not talking about audiophile switches here. Buffalo makes small business switches in large quantities at consumer prices, not overbuilt/overpriced switches for audiophiles. 

 

58 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

I got the BS-GS2008 whoch should normally be the same but with fewer ports (also not needed).

Peter - remove the heatsink of the switch, clean up the thermal paste and check the Broadcom chip part number. Send it to me, and I will confirm if it is the same. It would be nice if it is, but I highly doubt that. 

[Nenon]

43 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

FYI, I have been notified by the greatest network guru in Greece that the audiophiles *MUST* purchase two net switches and *NEVER* one. Stacked switches is definitely the way to go if they are used in a HiFi system.

 

That has been the trend here as well for at least the past year (or more). I tried 3 switches too, and it was better than 2. But two switches is the sweet spot. 

 

I bought some spare Buffalo switches while they were still in stock, and I think I can try 6 switches in series. Not practical and need a bunch of cables, but I will give it a go just for the sake of it. The problem is they need at least 3 week to break-in properly as they sound pretty bad the first couple of weeks. 

[Peter Avgeris]

13 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

I am not sure about that. The Melco board is exactly the same as the BS-GS2016 board. But it's installed in a chassis that does not have opening for the top 8 ports, so you only see the bottom 8 ports. 

People who have been tinkering with the Buffalo BS-GS2016 before the Melco existed have noticed that using the bottom ports sounded better than the top. That's how the Buffalo BS-GS2016A version appeared for audio. My guess is this was the reason Melco did not expose the top 8 ports at all. I have not seen an 8-port Buffalo switch for audio... the Japanese audiophiles prefered the 16-port Buffalo with plastic caps covering the top 8 ports. 

The other thing Melco suggests is to use the first 4 ports on the Melco (the first 8 ports on the Buffalo) for your streamer and the second half of the ports for the rest of the network. They also configure the first half of the ports as 100Mbps, but that does not work well for me. The second half of the ports are 1Gbps, and they suggest those for the rest of your network. 

This particular Broadcom chip must be playing a big role of the sound signature of the Melco/Buffalo. Haven't seen a block diagram to understand the switch fabric architecture, but the isolation between some of the ports, might be playing a big role here. 

 

The Broadcom chip is the most expensive part in that switch. It's almost $80 on Mouser if you buy it in the hundreds / thousands, which makes me think it is at least half of the cost of the entire switch. It does not make sense that Buffalo would be using the same 16G chip for their 8 port switch and sell it for half the price, or nearly the cost of the 16G chip itself. That's not how these companies make their profit. We are not talking about audiophile switches here. Buffalo makes small business switches in large quantities at consumer prices, not overbuilt/overpriced switches for audiophiles. 

 

Peter - remove the heatsink of the switch, clean up the thermal paste and check the Broadcom chip part number. Send it to me, and I will confirm if it is the same. It would be nice if it is, but I highly doubt that. 

Yes, I will do it, no problem. I am curious too. The price of 2008 is not far away from 2016. It might be a different chip by Broadcom, it might be the same, it might be a better one in terms of sound quality, nobody knows unless he compares heads up. Like in the case of Realtek network adapter, which is an absolute crap in terms of drivers but it outperforms all Intels I have tried so far. You never know in audio 🙂

[Peter Avgeris]

3 minutes ago, Nenon said:

 

I bought some spare Buffalo switches while they were still in stock, and I think I can try 6 switches in parallel. Not practical and need a bunch of cables, but I will give it a go just for the sake of it. The problem is they need at least 3 week to break-in properly as they sound pretty bad the first couple of weeks. 

The 16-port model is out of stock and probably will never be in stock again, as most likely the company plans to release another model. Who knows?

[elan120]

6 minutes ago, Nenon said:

I think I can try 6 switches in parallel

Sorry for my ignorance, I understand connect switches in series but not sure how they connect in parallel...could you advise how this is done?

[Nenon]

1 minute ago, elan120 said:

Sorry for my ignorance, I understand connect switches in series but not sure how they connect in parallel...could you advise how this is done?

LOL. Corrected. Thank you! 

[austinpop]

51 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

FYI, I have been notified by the greatest network guru in Greece that the audiophiles *MUST* purchase two net switches and *NEVER* one.

 

LOL ... you are "preaching to the choir!" If you look back on this thread over the last 3+ years, you'll see this has been explored extensively.

[Nenon]

30 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

Yes, I will do it, no problem. I am curious too.

Thank you. That would be useful for a lot of people. 

 

30 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

The price of 2008 is not far away from 2016.

In the US, when they were both in stock, the 2008 was less than half the price of the 2016. I don't know what the MSRP prices are. 

 

30 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

It might be a different chip by Broadcom, it might be the same, it might be a better one in terms of sound quality, nobody knows unless he compares heads up. Like in the case of Realtek network adapter, which is an absolute crap in terms of drivers but it outperforms all Intels I have tried so far. You never know in audio 🙂

This is true. But we value our spare time. With so much variety on the market we could easily spend the rest of our life just exploring one aspect of the digital source in our system. We tend to at least try to avoid repeating the research that other people or companies have already done. Given that Buffalo and Melco are related, I would be fairly confident to assume that if the 2008 model sounded better, they would have used that board. Given that a huge Japanese community have been playing with these switches before the Melco switch existed, and picked the 2016 model with 8 of the ports disabled, it would be a fairly safe assumption that there is no point wasting my time with the 2008 model. But for those who cannot find the 2016 model, I guess trying the 2008 model might be a good idea. I am just not interested unless I know it uses an identical Broadcom chip.

 

26 minutes ago, Peter Avgeris said:

The 16-port model is out of stock and probably will never be in stock again, as most likely the company plans to release another model. Who knows?

As far as I know those switches are discontinued and the 2016 model is withdrawn from the market. No surprise there as Melco is selling it for $2,500 instead of $150. 

[seeteeyou]

17 hours ago, auricgoldfinger said:

The S100 modifications were made by Pink Faun.  They replaced the 25MHz oscillator on the S100 board with their Ultra OCXO clock module.  They also removed the internal power connectors and soldered those wires directly to the board.  Finally, and perhaps most importantly, they created a 5v input to SEPARATELY power the clock module.  In other words, the modified S100 requires two power supply rails:  a 12v rail for the switch board and a 5v rail for the clock module.

 

Maybe here's something to think about later when your NUC7i7DNKE is replaced by something else?

 

If June Canyon and Dawson Canyon were sharing identical clocking options, having both NUC-based routers and S100 with Ultra OCXO could very well result in a killer combo

 

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/codename/126434/june-canyon.html

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/codename/126293/dawson-canyon.html

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/55202-article-quick-take-the-linear-solution-ds-1-network-streamer/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-915984  

On 1/10/2019 at 12:58 AM, austinpop said:

Due to a happy confluence of factors, all 3 chipsets can be driven by a 25MHz clock.

 

This is not always (or even usually) the case.

 

Converting Intel NUC Mini-PC into state-of-the-art router running pfSense in VirtualBox

https://www.joe0.com/2019/11/07/converting-intel-nuc-mini-pc-into-state-of-the-art-router-running-pfsense-in-oracle-virtualbox/

 

4 Router OS Turns Old PC Into High Performance Router And Enterprise Network Switch

https://www.geckoandfly.com/24015/router-os-enterprise-network-switch/

 

---

 

And then there's yet another mighty interesting question, could x86-based NUC still manage to beat ARM-based S100 if both of them were modified with the same 25MHz Ultra OCXO?

[Nsxturbo]

I have some interesting news for anyone looking for a Buffalo BS-GS2016A. I just discovered that the BS-GS2016P POE model uses the same main board, it just adds a piggyback board, POE relays and a higher voltage and current SMPS, all of which can be removed or bypassed. 
 

This might open up some additional sourcing opportunities😉

 

 

[seeteeyou]

BS-XM3008-2X-EDU (268,000 yen + sales tax)

https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bs-xm3008-2x-edu.html

 

BS-XM3014-2X-EDU (398,000 yen + sales tax)

https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/bs-xm3014-2x-edu.html

 

New switches from Buffalo are bloody expensive, though their wired router model VR-M2000-EDU might look somewhat interesting for 81,000 yen plus sales tax

 

https://www.buffalo.jp/product/detail/vr-m2000-edu.html

https://www.dengeki-store.com/detail/VR-M2000-EDU_1/MK31039270

[ASRMichael]

Buffalo BS-GU2016 in stock here

 

I just bought one. 

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402250375981

[auricgoldfinger]

Photos of the modified S100

 

 

 

 

BEFORE:

 

 

 

AFTER:

 

 

 

Modifications which are not visible in the photos are the four vibration dampers attached to the bottom of the clock board (one for each corner) and custom Pink Faun wire in the DC cable powering the clock module.  (This is the same wire used in their streamer products), 

[Nsxturbo]

2 minutes ago, auricgoldfinger said:

Photos of the modified S100

 
Nice! Thank you for the photos. 

Gotta Love this community!

[matthias]

@auricgoldfinger

 

Please, can you answer my question from post #16550.

 

Thank you.

 

Matt

[auricgoldfinger]

Some additional thoughts:

 

1. People have inquired about the cost.  I have confirmed with Jord that Pink Faun didn't charge me for the additional parts and labor because I was the first customer to request this particular implementation of their clock, and they didn't know if it would work. If you would like more information about pricing, contact Jord at [email protected].

2. Even though my source is only two NUCs, my system is highly optimized throughout in terms of power supplies, DC cables, power cords, interconnects, fuses, and Apacer RAM.  If you are not already powering all of the devices in your digital chain PSUs from the vendors who have a proven track record here...Paul Hynes Design, Farad, Uptone, JCAT, and DXPWR...I recommend spending your money to fully address those areas before moving forward with the S100 modification.  In particular, be sure you have top quality DC cables...they are like any other component and have a significant effect on the performance of the LPS.  People who have experimented with power cords will tell you they can also make significant changes in sound quality (less so with Uptone products).  Finally, I would consider replacing stock fuses with Synergistic Research orange fuses.  romaz uses them throughout his system.  @Nenon can also attest to the positive changes they bring to his system.  They are far and away the best fuses I have used.

 

3.  Finally, if you decide to move forward, be sure to use a high quality PSU for the clock module. The ultra OCXO really benefits from good, clean power.