ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[firedog]

I find the tone at ASR very negative and self righteous.

I seriously doubt anyone can hear the difference between two otherwise identical DACs that have 113 (good) SINAD and 120 (state of the art )SINAD. Neither do Amir and his crew, but they are obsessed with it anyway. 

 

But some perspective: It's not so different from some of the subjective equipment obsessions people here have. 

 

At ASR they seem to think Amir's handful of measurements tell all you need to know about something. I think Bruno Putzey has a more believeable approach: he says he performs tens of different measurements on an amp, including some very extreme out there scenarios. He says with his suite of measurements he can tell you if an amp will sound good. And he does say some of his competitors pass his tests. But pretty much no else does such measurements. 

 

But I think the ASR site performs a service: it points out equipment - and sometimes expensive equipment - that measures poorly. And it points out more moderately priced stuff that's made well and performs very well.  Personally, no matter what my budget, I'd want to buy something that has the basic measurements of noise and distotion lined up. I'd put that in the category of a "necessary but not neccessarily sufficient condition" for a buy. 

I was looking for a modestly priced dac/streamer for secondary use and bought one that measured well at ASR. It fit my budget and had the features I wanted. Yes, it's Chinese. But it seems to be made well and I'm very happy with it. IMO, a great value. Seeing the measurements gave me some confidence buying it direct from the manufacturer with no support outside of China. Certainly I wouldn't buy a five figure item that didn't  have manufacturer support. But I think you would have to spend a LOT of money to get something that sounds significantly better with that feature set.  If you do, you should be getting great cometics and great support. 

 

Amir has also praised equipment like MAY DACs that measure very well and he says they are very well engineered. But of course, he and his crew think such items cost 10X what they should and are no better sounding than some $400 chip DACs....It's a perpetual controversy in the audio world. The camps aren't going to convince each other. 

[danadam]

51 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If not, there must be a reason. I don't know what that reason is, but I'm guessing it has to do with commerce and money. Just my guess, based solely on being a human being and understanding how life works.

Maybe I missed some things, but AFAICT he never brings up MQA by himself. Whenever he talks about it, it is always only as a response to some MQA opponents' arguments, which he thinks are flawed in some way (the arguments, not the opponents :-)). Like his vs others definition of what DRM is. I don't know where the money is in that.

 

 

47 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

All I know is I recently bought a Matrix Mini-i Pro 3, and when researching it and other Ch-Fi DACs of course ended up at ASR via Google search, and in many of his reviews he had exclamation marks and positive things to say when it came to the fact the DAC(s) supported MQA.

Really? Can you point some actual examples? I just looked through first pages of:

• Topping D70s MQA Review (DAC)
• Gustard X16 Balanced MQA DAC Review
• Review and Measurements of Matrix Audio Element X DAC/Streamer/Amp
• Loxjie D50 Review (Stereo DAC)
• SMSL M400 Balanced USB MQA DAC Review

and other than saying if the DAC supports MQA, there are no more mentions of it.

 

Ok, in Matrix review he says "It was fun to see the MQA indicator light up on the DAC". Damn, I guess he's a fan /s.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, danadam said:

I don't know where the money is in that.

Think about his business, which is a major conflict of interest, and the possibilities of talking bad about MQA. You have to consider the big picture and long term relationships. 

[Dr Tone]

It is a little "odd" that he his a proponent of well measuring hardware but doesn't think the same applies to an audio format/reconstruction filter.

[charlesphoto]

21 hours ago, JoeWhip said:

At least he listened to these speakers for 10 seconds before he decided all was good.

 

Big problem. Anything different can sound good, even better, on first listen, just because it's different. When I auditioned for new speakers last year, I was at first set on a used pair of Larsen 4's at me local dealer. All good with most of my test tracks (jazz, electronic, primarily) until I got to Cat Power's The Greatest. My god, it sounded like an entirely different master. Tried it several times, and it didn't sound any different from usual with the other half dozen speakers I auditioned (no idea how any of them measured) but very strange with the Larsen's. Finally gave up on floor standers I went in for altogether and ended up back with stand mounts (Audio Physic Compact Classics). Longer term listening, system and cable matching, room matching etc etc should all come before measurements imo. 

 

I suppose measurements are fine for some kind of mfg baseline, but rarely tell the whole story. I'll bet my vintage Naim NAP 160 'Bolt Down' (that I paid all of $470 for last year from my local dealer) measures worse than a lot of 'lesser' amps but tells me nothing about how it actually sounds in my system - glorious, esp after Sean Jacobs made up a 'snakeskin' power cable for it ;). 

 

What funny games people like to play...

[charlesphoto]

43 minutes ago, danadam said:

 

 

Ok, in Matrix review he says "It was fun to see the MQA indicator light up on the DAC". Damn, I guess he's a fan /s.

 

Ok, maybe I'm wrong. Honestly I don't really give a s**t one way or the other and just tossed that off without doing my internet research first. All I know is he has some sort of beef with Sonore and Uptone, two companies whom I use their gear extensively and support. Made me dislike him from the get go, so I suppose call me as biased as he is. 

[JoeWhip]

Charles, the whole point of that quote was a joke, the fact being that he recommends things like DACs without ever listening to them. I agree that first impressions can be deceiving which is why I wait before deciding to purchase or do a review for that matter, to make sure I fully grasp the sound of a product.

[plissken]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Think about his business, which is a major conflict of interest, and the possibilities of talking bad about MQA. You have to consider the big picture and long term relationships. 

 

You leveled this type of criticism at Archimago. I think if I turned on monetization on my YT videos for the $0.007 it would make me I'd get painted with the same brush. Is there anything more than a gut feeling you have on this?

[sphinxsix]

  

 

4 hours ago, plissken said:

I'm sure he has a pretty penny tied up in audio gear. If you are curious about specifics I would encourage you to register and ask.

 

No need to, he lists it openly: 

 

Mark Levinson amplifiers and DAC.

Revel Salon 2 Speakers

Berkeley Alpha USB->AES/EBU converter

Windows 10, silent, custom PC music server

Roon Music Management

Tidal Music Streaming   

 

(it's a pretty serious gear, I'm quite surprised the guy can't hear eg differences between cables on this system..)

 

I don't know the ASR site, just been checking Amir's speakers review list. This is nonsense. Not only for me - for him as well, although he probably doesn't know it yet.

I'm taking into account the KRK Rokit 5 which review I posted to here, JBL 305 and Adam Audio T5V which I prefered out of these three. 

BTW Amir also liked them a lot and wrote in their review: 'Really, I live for days like this. Discovering a budget speaker that exceeds your expectations and produces great sound with almost no faults.' IMO he is right - these are really good speakers in their very low price range. They are also quite forgiving as far the quality of of components connected to them is regarded and even for such 'killer' formats like mp3 which on my main system is simply unlistenable. They do everything I expected my 'desktop' speakers to do. 

And to KRKs, JBLs and AAs I will add ...Kef Ls50 which I and I believe also many here as well know quite well. Still very good in their price range (4-5 x more expensive than the earlier mentioned transducers) - IMO of course but I'm sure many will agree.

Here comes the nonsense part.

The KRK's get the score of 3.6 according to Amir and I'm ok with that - they were IMO the worst of the three active speakers I compared with each other. Adam Audios which  both me and Amir preferred to JBLs get 4.2 points. I might be ok with that if it wasn't for the fact that the JBLs get 4.6 points... This is the moment in which he clearly shows he prefers speakers with the lower score - AAs..

But we are only half way into the nonsense at this point, cause..

..Kef LS50 which are absolutely and definitely speakers offering much higher sound quality than any of the three mentioned earlier... also get 4.6 points - just like JBLs... 

In addition Kali LP6 (which I haven't heard and Amir prefered much more AAs to them - check the review and his comparisons also with JBLs) costing ..$150 get ...5.2 Audio Science Review points which means they should sound even better than Kefs..

What does it prove.? It proves clearly there is absolutely no correlation between Amir's measurements and sound quality, even sound quality subjectively perceived by Amir.

I think it also shows why in my very first post here I wrote:

 

23 hours ago, sphinxsix said:

'Audio Science' phrase just makes me laugh

 

Thank you, for me the topics of both Audio Science and their 'Reviews' are closed 

 

 

 

[charlesphoto]

40 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

Charles, the whole point of that quote was a joke, the fact being that he recommends things like DACs without ever listening to them. I agree that first impressions can be deceiving which is why I wait before deciding to purchase or do a review for that matter, to make sure I fully grasp the sound of a product.

Yes, I realize that, just elaborating on your valid point/joke. 

[plissken]

44 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

All I know is he has some sort of beef with Sonore and Uptone

 

That beef is well defined actually. It goes back to Whatsbestforum when Superdad responded to my post about blind testing his own usb regen product blind. He said any day of the week. Before I could respond Amir offered to go out at his own expense (I offered to split the costs). Then Alex up and didn't post for 18 months immediately after that.

 

Then we have the LPS and Meanwell where Amir showed that the LPS wasn't filtering anything and letting a huge amount of noise through only to have Alex dig in for about 6 months before ACTUALLY testing what Amir was showing.  Just to find out he was right. Now we are at audiopholly network gear. I understand the beef.

[charlesphoto]

1 minute ago, plissken said:

 

That beef is well defined actually. It goes back to Whatsbestforum when Superdad responded to my post about blind testing his own usb regen product blind. He said any day of the week. Before I could respond Amir offered to go out at his own expense (I offered to split the costs). Then Alex up and didn't post for 18 months immediately after that.

 

Umm, perhaps because these 'blind test' challenges with expenses paid and big bets going to charity etc are more than a bit puerile in the scheme of things (how life actually works when you have a life), and most likely not truly sincere and waived about to just try and make a point? I wouldn't respond either.

[plissken]

1 minute ago, charlesphoto said:

 

Umm, perhaps because these 'blind test' challenges with expenses paid and big bets going to charity etc are more than a bit puerile in the scheme of things (how life actually works when you have a life), and most likely not truly sincere and waived about to just try and make a point? I wouldn't respond either.

I believe in your ears as much as you do.

[plissken]

11 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

I'm taking into account the KRK Rokit 5 which review I posted to here, JBL 305 and Adam Audio T5V which I prefered out of these three.

 

FYI you can routinely get the 308p MKII for $189. JBL put's the on sale often. The T5V are $200 normally. Just saying. The 305P MKII can be had for $125 per sometimes.  Just some ROI info.

[charlesphoto]

48 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

  

 

 

 

But we are only half way into the nonsense at this point, cause..

..Kef LS50 which are absolutely and definitely speakers offering much higher sound quality than any of the three mentioned earlier... also get 4.6 points - just like JBLs... 

 

 

 

Currently listening to my Ls50's in the office. Superb sounding as always, even with the highly rated by ASR Matrix Mini Pro-i 3. Even more absurd is he rates the ATC SCM19's, an even better speaker than the Ls50's (I've heard them) at 4.6. It's all hogwash and 'science' filtered through bias imo, which isn't science at all. I'm all for subjective opinions upon actual listening mixed with measuring, but not bias based on solely some most likely inaccurate numbers. 

[sphinxsix]

11 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

FYI you can routinely get the 308p MKII for $189. JBL put's the on sale often. The T5V are $200 normally. Just saying. The 305P MKII can be had for $125 per sometimes.  Just some ROI info.

 

What do you think about the other things I said?

 

[plissken]

11 minutes ago, sphinxsix said:

 

What do you think about the other things I said?

 

ASR has the “Complaint thread about Speaker Measurements“ thread.

 

I think he would welcome a conversation about this from you.

[sphinxsix]

2 minutes ago, plissken said:

ASR has the “Complaint thread about Speaker Measurements“ thread.

 

I think he would welcome a conversation about this from you.

 

I have no time for this.

 

[cab33]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

FYI you can routinely get the 308p MKII for $189. JBL put's the on sale often. The T5V are $200 normally. Just saying. The 305P MKII can be had for $125 per sometimes.  Just some ROI info.

 

Too bad they're so ugly

[plissken]

7 minutes ago, cab33 said:

 

Too bad they're so ugly

 

Always a problem for people that like audiojewelery 

[sandyk]

5 hours ago, plissken said:

If you are curious about specifics I would encourage you to register and ask.

 How much commission are YOU being paid to increase ASR membership ?  😄

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

You leveled this type of criticism at Archimago. I think if I turned on monetization on my YT videos for the $0.007 it would make me I'd get painted with the same brush. Is there anything more than a gut feeling you have on this?

I said everything in my post. 
 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Always a problem for people that like audiojewelery 

What’s the problem with audio jewelry? Not everyone has to like things for the reasons you like things. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

@plissken think about this for a second. 
 

MQA has been a huge topic in HiFi. Every objective site has torn it to pieces. Subjective sites have loved it. 
 

Why wouldn’t an objective site that gets off on schadenfreude be all over it? 
 

If an objective site thinks it’s good, then everyone would love to see more info about it. If it’s bad, then tell the world. 
 

Something else is at play. If you don’t think so, you’re drinking the cool aide. 

[charlesphoto]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Always a problem for people that like audiojewelery 

 

An old friend recently bought a large print of mine, a photo of the U-Men from back in the day, before he got a job early at Amazon, had kids etc. Anyway, this was for under his stereo in the living room. His stereo appeared to probably be the same one he had back in college, and most likely worth all of a quarter, being generous, of what the print cost (let alone framing it). People have different priorities. He could afford anything you want hifi wise, within reason, but he prefers travel, art, kids private schools, etc. and playing his U-Men and Gun Club and Mudhoney records on his old basic turntable.  Personally, my ears wouldn't be able to take it, literally, in large part due to tinnitus. Of course I didn't say anything about it. Why would you?

 

But to others audio is a fascination, all the way from building Heathkits in the garage to perfectly balanced rooms with built in horns and finely cast and constructed audio gear that does resemble jewelry. Who's to say who is right or wrong? I would not be comfortable with the look of inexpensive JBL speakers in my living room. I am an artist - I constantly see the world in an aesthetic way. And that said, a lot of high end audio gear can be garish and ridiculous. I do like the look of my white glass clad Audio Physic Compact Classics though, which were half price demos on top a generous trade in for my previous Rega RX3's. Didn't set me back much because I know how to shop carefully and audition, the sound I like, and how to wire up a simple good sounding power cable if need be. There's room for all levels and grounds in this is hobby.

 

My wife recently gave a spare doll to my daughter's best friend (both eight). The other girl's father (whom we consider a good friend) said something awful and snarky like why do want that, she's creepy looking, potentially spoiling the whole deal for both girls. Totally unthinking, only looking to score the upper hand on intellectual snark points against  an eight year old girl. My wife ripped him a new one. He did later apologize to her. 

 

Let people have their bit of happiness, no matter what it does (or doesn't) cost. It doesn't affect you.