ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[asdf1000]

Remember the state of the art gear on this planet are designed by engineers and engineers use these (and more) measurements.

 

 

[asdf1000]

So what happens when Amir posts APx555 measurements and the designer of the DAC (I hate still talking about DACs but seems I have to) posts his own APx555 measurement and they are different ?

 

Same key measurement gear (different overall setup probably) but different results?

 

Well this happens in the case of Chord Mojo.

 

It didn't change my opinion of my Chord Mojo at all. The designer shared his own APx555 measurements in this case. So it wasn't one persons word against another persons measurements. It was measurement based. Rob Watts of Chord is heavy into measurements and loves to tell the world he was one of the first in all of Europe to own the APx555...

 

The audience is left to decide what they want.

 

I wish there were more cases like this where manufacturers simply posted their own measurements. Then people can decide if Amir is simply measuring wrong. But there aren't enough of these examples. Maybe this is changing now (thanks to Amir).

 

Schiit Audio now post their own APx555 measurements on their website and send gear to Amir. I never thought I'd see that day.

 

Funnily enough, later Chord Qutest was measured as state of the art by Amir.

 

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything?

 

In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir.

Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love.

 

What is the issue with Amir here?

 

It really makes no sense now.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do do you get a commission on every new member you introduce to A.S.R ?  😃

[sandyk]

18 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Remember the state of the art gear on this planet are designed by engineers and engineers use these (and more) measurements.

 

 

The majority of the "lemons" were designed by Engineers too e.g. Sony CDP101:

 

[asdf1000]

Just now, sandyk said:

 

 

The majority of the "lemons: were designed by Engineers too. 😉

 

Correct. We need more 3rd party verification to filter out the lemons ;-)

 

 

[Rexp]

11 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Meaningless? KEF, Genelec, Harman, Neumann engineers don't think they are meaningless.

 

Your opinion is your opinion but they are lost and you are found? 😄

 

And I don't "rely" on measurements - I consider them. I like to know that what the manufacturer says something does, it does.

 

If you like to be lied to, that's fine for you.

 

I'm lost if someone wants less 3rd party verification in this world.

 

The world should have just trusted VW and a regulator shouldn't have measured right ;-)

 

I am not drawing any similarity between the importance of audio hobby and climate change - the point of the example is sometimes you can't trust what a manufacturer tells you unless you have someone check 😉There have been examples of this in HiFi as Amir has found.

 

I'd be delighted if there was a measurement or way to veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity- but it doesn't exist. 

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Do do you get a commission on every new member you introduce to A.S.R ?  😃

 

Huge fan of JA at Stereophile too. For exactly the same reasons.

 

And Tyll at Innerfidelity before he retired.

 

These helped the industry, not hurt.

 

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, Rexp said:

I'd be delighted if there was a measurement or way to veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity- but it doesn't exist. 

 

I just want to know something does what the manufacturer says it does on the box. I have to keep repeating this because it seems to be going over peoples heads.

 

After that, I'm happy to use my own ears to " veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity"

 

Sound like a fair and reasonable approach? 😉

[asdf1000]

27 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

Do do you get a commission on every new member you introduce to A.S.R ?  😃

 

Btw this thread was never started as a pro-ASR thread.

 

The opening post shows why this thread was started.

 

But the anti-ASR folks came and here we are 😄

 

As I already mentioned above, I am definitely anti some ways that Amir does things and communicates things. Rob H describes it well in the video above.

 

But I can filter that from the useful measurements he is doing these days. And then use that info to shortlist what I demo with my own ears !

[Rexp]

19 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I just want to know something does what the manufacturer says it does on the box. I have to keep repeating this because it seems to be going over peoples heads.

 

After that, I'm happy to use my own ears to " veryify whether stuff sounds good/high fidelity"

 

Sound like a fair and reasonable approach? 😉

I think the reason ASR is popular is that many believe most digital tweaks/high priced sources are snake oil. I do too but measuements can't tell us, we can only trust our ears. Best to ignore measurements. 

[asdf1000]

Just now, Rexp said:

Best to ignore measurements. 

 

Not sure what the designers of the very gear you own would think of this 😄

 

 

1 minute ago, Rexp said:

I think the reason ASR is popular is that many believe most digital tweaks/high priced sources are snake oil

 

Some things that are not "tweaks" or "high priced snake oil" that are very popular on ASR and come recommended by him:

 

KEF R3 speakers,  Genelec monitors, Neumann monitors, Dan Clarke headphones, Sennheiser headphones, JBL speakers, Revel speakers, RME interface, Universal Audio interface, Motu interface, Benchmark amp, THX based amps, Purif based amp, Hypex based amps. Chord Qutest DAC too. There are even more examples.

 

Unfortunately I need to keep repeating this because people still seem angry about early Rendu and Uptone product reviews from years ago.

 

Things have moved on quickly to components that produce sound.

 

[semente]

6 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

What do you mean he just goes by numbers?

 

He shares numbers but how does that suggest he "goes by" them?

 

 

Actually I find that he is too caught up in SINAD and Spinorama and resulting Predicted Preference rating, both of which are manifestly insufficient to characterise performance.

It’s a simplistic approach which ultimately is not that different from a star-rating system.

 

Rating systems are very appealing to that slice of the market which lacks the confidence and the knowledge to perform its choices and finds comfort in an easier way to deal with consumption.

From that perspective the Spinorama is an excellent marketing tool.

[asdf1000]

27 minutes ago, semente said:

Actually I find that he is too caught up in SINAD and Spinorama and resulting Predicted Preference rating, both of which are manifestly insufficient to characterise performance.

It’s a simplistic approach which ultimately is not that different from a star-rating system.

 

Noted but I'm really not sure what is so complicated about looking past the SINAD measurement (which all manufacturers specify btw in the form of THD+N %, so it is one of many checks for does it do what the manufacturer says ) and looking at all the other measurements he does and considering (not relying) all , on the whole.

 

I think readers (both pro-ASR and anti-ASR) seem to get more caught up in the SINAD chart than he does and forget a lot of the other very useful measurements.

 

I use a Focusrite  Gen3 interface which has a SINAD of just over 100dB (both DAC and ADC) .

 

I don't feel like I need to sell that for a Okto multichannel interface for the highest SINAD on the chart. I think 100dB is competent... and other measurements shows good performance.

 

The SINAD game is only annoying to people that seem to put so much emphasis on it. It puzzles me to be honest.

 

There are other important measurements which he shares fortunately.

 

I have to ask again, I'm not sure why people want LESS 3rd party verification in the world when he have so many examples of manufacturers not delivery what they say

 

I'm not at all interested in comparison charts. I just want to know it does what it says on the box.

 

[semente]

8 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Noted but I'm really not sure what is so complicated about looking past the SINAD measurement (which all manufacturers specify btw in the form of THD+N %, so it is one of many checks for does it do what the manufacturer says ) and looking at all the other measurements he does and considering (not relying) all , on the whole.

 

I think readers (both pro-ASR and anti-ASR) seem to get more caught up in the SINAD chart than he does and forget a lot of the other very useful measurements.

 

I use a Focusrite  Gen3 interface which has a SINAD of just over 100dB (both DAC and ADC) .

 

I don't feel like I need to sell that for a Okto multichannel interface for the highest SINAD on the chart. I think 100dB is competent... and other measurements shows good performance.

 

The SINAD game is only annoying to people that seem to put so much emphasis on it. It puzzles me to be honest.

 

There are other important measurements which he shares fortunately.

 

I have to ask again, I'm not sure why people want LESS 3rd party verification in the world when he have so many examples of manufacturers not delivery what they say

 

I'm not at all interested in comparison charts. I just want to know it does what it says on the box.

 

I’m grateful that he is performing measurements but the accompanying preaching is unhelpful and unnecessary.

And often he has to be hard pressed in order to move his stance or perform extra measurements.

 

Still I filter out the noise coming from his flock of believers and focus on those who know what they’re talking about.

There’s a lot of narrow-mindedness and parroting which is annoying.

[asdf1000]

27 minutes ago, semente said:

I’m grateful that he is performing measurements but the accompanying preaching is unhelpful and unnecessary.

And often he has to be hard pressed in order to move his stance or perform extra measurements.

 

Still I filter out the noise coming from his flock of believers and focus on those who know what they’re talking about.

There’s a lot of narrow-mindedness and parroting which is annoying.

 

Agree with all this (I've mentioned similar in this thread).

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

So what happens when Amir posts APx555 measurements and the designer of the DAC (I hate still talking about DACs but seems I have to) posts his own APx555 measurement and they are different ?

 

Same key measurement gear (different overall setup probably) but different results?

 

Well this happens in the case of Chord Mojo.

 

It didn't change my opinion of my Chord Mojo at all. The designer shared his own APx555 measurements in this case. So it wasn't one persons word against another persons measurements. It was measurement based. Rob Watts of Chord is heavy into measurements and loves to tell the world he was one of the first in all of Europe to own the APx555...

 

The audience is left to decide what they want.

 

I wish there were more cases like this where manufacturers simply posted their own measurements. Then people can decide if Amir is simply measuring wrong. But there aren't enough of these examples. Maybe this is changing now (thanks to Amir).

 

Schiit Audio now post their own APx555 measurements on their website and send gear to Amir. I never thought I'd see that day.

 

Funnily enough, later Chord Qutest was measured as state of the art by Amir.

 

The professional thing to do is to measure something, send those measurements to the manufacturer, determine if there is a discrepancy between the measurements or an error, if something is wrong with the measurements  - fix it before publication, if two measurements are different- figure out why before publication, then publish. 

[sphinxsix]

9 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Good morning 😁

 

Good morning 

Do we wake up at more or less the same time.? 

 

[JoeWhip]

I don’t think Chris ever sleeps, too much to do.

[asdf1000]

50 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The professional thing to do is to measure something, send those measurements to the manufacturer, determine if there is a discrepancy between the measurements or an error, if something is wrong with the measurements  - fix it before publication, if two measurements are different- figure out why before publication, then publish. 

 

Hi again

 

He already does that if manufacturer sends him gear...

Seems unreasonable to expect this if a general public consumer sends him gear or he purchases himself. 

 

I fully understand you want to defend a couple of your forum sponsors who have had products scrutinised by him (I own and enjoy their products too) but coming up with dated arguments like focusing on Chinese DACs and SINAD chart and that he should behave like a website that receives sponsorship and advertising money, is a bit of a stretch and unreasonable in my opinion. I assume this comes from your difficult position.

 

But others can read the arguments and decide for themselves.

 

I purely use ASR to see if a product does what the manufacturer themselves claim it does. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Why one would rather have no verification and just have marketing and reading other peoples subjective impressions, well I can't understand that... we've had many examples of manufacturers not delivering what they claim - not what somebody else claims.

 

To use SINAD as an example since everyone seems to be obsessed with this one number (manufactures typyically specify THD+N % btw, a common spec) if a manufacturer claims a SINAD of 98 dB and that's verified to be accurate, they are good in my book...  I am not obsessed with the ranking aspect. I am not obsessed with 115dB thresh-hold of hearing - I listen at 70-80dB max... Some fans of ASR seem to be obsessed with the rank. I'm not.

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

30 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Hi again

 

He already does that if manufacturer sends him gear...

Seems unreasonable to expect this if a general public consumer sends him gear or he purchases himself. 

 

I fully understand you want to defend a couple of your forum sponsors who have had products scrutinised by him (I own and enjoy their products too) but coming up with dated arguments like focusing on Chinese DACs and SINAD chart and that he should behave like a website that receives sponsorship and advertising money, is a bit of a stretch and unreasonable in my opinion. I assume this comes from your difficult position.

 

But others can read the arguments and decide for themselves.

 

I purely use ASR to see if a product does what the manufacturer themselves claim it does. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

Why one would rather have no verification and just have marketing and reading other peoples subjective impressions, well I can't understand that... we've had many examples of manufacturers not delivering what they claim - not what somebody else claims.

 

To use SINAD as an example since everyone seems to be obsessed with this one number (manufactures typyically specify THD+N % btw, a common spec) if a manufacturer claims a SINAD of 98 dB and that's verified to be accurate, they are good in my book...  I am not obsessed with the ranking aspect. I am not obsessed with 115dB thresh-hold of hearing - I listen at 70-80dB max... Some fans of ASR seem to be obsessed with the rank. I'm not.

 

 

I don’t want to defend anyone. 
 

If someone is truly out to educate people and offer honest objective information, he would absolutely talk to the manufacturer. We’ve all seen what happens when he has screwed up the measurements and retracted them in 5pt text several days later. You can’t unring the bell. 
 

On the other hand, if some likes to feed his ego, publish gotcha style measurements, and revel in the schadenfreude cesspool that follows, then go ahead with publishing potentially inaccurate measurements that can be a disservice. 

[asdf1000]

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

We’ve all seen what happens when he has screwed up the measurements and retracted them in 5pt text several days later. You can’t unring the bell. 

 

This is poor form - no question about it! Fully agree with you there. Rob H covers this kind of thing in the YouTube podcast link I shared.

 

He absolutely needs to improve the way in which he communicates , I've already mentioned this and agreed with someone else that said this.

 

I also don't trust any measurements before he got his APx555 and even his earliest when he got the machine.

 

I do trust them now - they correlate with the measurements of some of the biggest manufactures in on the planet (both pro audio and consumer audio... KEF, Genelec, Chord (Qutest), JBL, Revel, Neummann, Sennheiser, Universal Audio, RME, Motu, Focusrite).

 

That doesn't change the fact that I believe we absolutely need more 3rd party verifications to verify that manufacturers products are doing what they claim their product does.

 

I'm going to keep repeating this because I'm waiting for someone to reply that we don't need this, life is fine just believing all manufacturers claims because all manufacturers are truthful with their own specifications...

 

I've been a huge Stereophile fan for many years , just for John Atkinson's measurements. And Tyll at Innerfidelity. I don't bother going to Innerfidelity anymore. They've long promised measurements were coming back but nada. I'll give up my Stereophile subscription once JA stops.

 

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

revel in the schadenfreude cesspool that follows

 

I'm not a fan of this either by the way.

 

13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I don’t want to defend anyone.

 

Yes but you obviously have to write that because your forum sponsors are reading this too. It wouldn't be a look good if you didn't stand up for them. It's a difficult position to be in, I get that.

 

[sphinxsix]

51 minutes ago, JoeWhip said:

I don’t think Chris ever sleeps, too much to do.

 

No, I can clearly see that my and Chris's disappearances  from the forum are practically perfect examples of synchronicity. 

 

[asdf1000]

23 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

h publishing potentially inaccurate measurements that can be a disservice.

 

By the way, just an important note on my position.

 

If I see him publish a "bad" measurement I never automatically assume it is a bad product... he is only providing one datapoint.

 

I don't assume it is a broken product.

 

I already shared the Chord Mojo example (one of his earliest APx555 measurements).

 

However if I see something measuring well (measuring well = it does what the manufacturer claims, I don't care about 115dB thresh-hold of hearing or a stupid ranking chart) , then that's all I need to say, I'll give that a demo and listen with my own ears and decide.

 

The same way I've used JA's Stereophile measurements over the years.

 

[botrytis]

Maybe Amir should ask Archimago how do to measurements properly 🤣

[botrytis]

If anyone wants some suggestions of where to by unique teas, US people, just PM me. Chris already did and I will share the wealth, as it were.