asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I don’t follow. If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything? In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir. Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love. What is the issue with Amir here? It really makes no sense now. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, botrytis said: @The Computer Audiophileif you like black tea - I can recommend.... Monks Blend Tea | Monks Breakfast Blend Black Tea – Art of Tea Thanks! this is my go-to - https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black?variant=32272619372657 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said: If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything? In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir. Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love. What is the issue with Amir here? It really makes no sense now. I still do t follow your logic. 300 Chinese DACs for $500 all measure great. If those engineers are on a site, why should I care? Other engineers are interested in numbers and making sure their products are accurately portrayed online. That has absolutely nothing to do with the bigger picture. People who enjoy that stuff should go have fun with it. Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post cjf Posted February 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 I've spent my share of time over at ASR and when I'm bored I still browse there on occasion. My visits there are usually pretty short lived though. It usually only takes viewing a few threads before I start to develop a case of indigestion. If I had a dollar for each time I saw someone cry about seeing the results of the double blind test (DBT) in a thread over there I'd be a very rich man. My problem with those who are pure objective only when it comes to this audio hobby is that basing your opinion solely on test results, pie charts, graphs..etc..etc conducted in perfectly controlled settings is that it tells you nothing about compatibility with other audio gear in the real world. Just because two components show/advertise picture perfect results doesn't mean they will actually mesh/blend or get along with each other once connected together in a full "system". I've owned allot of gear over the years that measured perfectly but didn't sound great or even remotely real. Some of this gear would flat out not even work with other gear that also measured just as perfectly. You do what you can to try and cover all your bases in terms of research before buying a piece of gear but the reality is you just never know how things will play together until you hook it up to a real world system and LISTEN to it as one long chain of stuff. The hope being, it sounds like something you want to actually hear. I find it very funny when I see some of the loudest objective type voices not hearing differences between gear while using some science project rig they built themselves or acquired via the lowest possible cost at all costs. But the charts say its perfect soo. Perhaps there is some ignorance,jealousy, ego all tied in there as well to help add fuel to their fire. In some cases the reference kit being used as a jumping off point for endless DBT responses in a thread about subjective SQ, well, that science project or piece of kit probably isn't as good as they think it is. Sometimes the truth hurts. Ive done the DIY thing myself and bought the cheapest shit available that supposedly measures well too but you gotta be able to keep your eyes open (and ears). It really is possible for better stuff to exist than you can maybe build or afford to own. Period! Anyway, to each their own. I come here to AS because IMO it strikes the best balance between subjective and objective info. Any site that is to one extreme or the other I have no interest in spending time at. This is a hobby after all and its supposed to be enjoyable. Being at one extreme or the other is not very enjoyable IME/IMO. Josh Mound, Andyman, Jeff_N and 3 others 6 My Audio System -Last Updated May 20 2021 Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 3 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: Thanks! this is my go-to - https://youngmountaintea.com/products/nepali-golden-black?variant=32272619372657 At Christmas they do a Black fig cinnamon tea that is divine - very subtle and wonderful. The Computer Audiophile 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
JoeWhip Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Best post in awhile, thanks. I will look into that tea. Link to comment
sphinxsix Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Based even only on sheer brilliance of its participants arguments, AS is the best audio forum by a really looong way. It's 4am here in Europe, good night. The Computer Audiophile 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 2 minutes ago, sphinxsix said: Based even only on sheer brilliance of its participants arguments, AS is the best audio forum by a really looong way. It's 4am here in Europe, good night. Good morning 😁 lucretius and sphinxsix 2 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Oh, I have bought my wife some expensive teas as she loves tea. Last time it was Pu-erh tea from 1960 - they still had some (that was the year I was born :D). It was quite complex and picked from a type of tea plant they do not use any more (a red-veined varietal). The Computer Audiophile 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
plissken Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: That’s where we differ big time, but I don’t ridicule you for not caring about build quality, responsible product sourcing, local jobs, etc... I'm not ridiculing you. If you believe your points that support $14k to $40k devices that reproduce pedestrian 20Hz to 20Khz then that is what you believe. My red herring part comes into what you are saying about products that don't come with that price tag. That is support, build quality, longevity. If they could be $4999.00 and not $499 I'm not going to debate the Jobs point. Sorry I just don't accept that based on my experience. It's routine to get 10-12 years out of sub $1K electronics. My Samsung Plasma is going on 11 years old and showing no problems. My Sanyo PLV Z60 PJ is 11 years old and looks great with a bulb replacement. Both under the $1K mark. Sorry that you read that as ridicule. I thought when I posted about the $499 DC-1 still going strong after 10 years that I answered that. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 12 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I still do t follow your logic. 300 Chinese DACs for $500 all measure great. If those engineers are on a site, why should I care? You're still talking about DACs and I said the site has moved well past and onto things that produce sound (speakers and headphones) and the things that drive those (amps). You are right you shouldn't care about DACs ! DACs are solved by the competent Engineers - even by Schiit Audio now (they are sending DACs to Amir to measure and doing well). Not sure why you single out Chinese but you're not reading what I wrote before or conveniently ignoring - RME engineer is there and product measured superbly, Chord Qutest measured superbly. Benchmark DAC, superb. Universal Audio's top end pro audio interface measured state of the art. Please read my examples carefully and no need to bring Chinese into it? Even though many of them have solved the DAC performance thing too. The funniest thing with the Schiit example is that the Engineers of Schiit products listened and changed their engineering and now send gear to Amir. But the consumers are still stuck in their mindset. i find that comical But move beyond DACs. And forget about the engineers being on the forum if that is distracting you. KEF R3, Genelec monitors, KRK monitors, Neumann monitors, Sennheiser headphones, Dan Clarke headphones, Purifi based amps, Hypex based amps, THX based amps - all getting great measurements and recommendations. The whinging about measurements has become silly when you look at the overall picture Respectfully please don't bring up DACs again 😃 Ajax 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Rexp Posted February 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, asdf1000 said: If the Engineers of products we love are active on the forum and happy with Amir's measurements at what point does it seem silly that consumers of these products complain that measurements aren't everything? In addition to the products I mentioned, Genelec, Neumann, KRK, RME, Focusrite (Gen3), Motu - these are some of the biggest names making the gear that make the music we listen to... getting recommendations by Amir. Good engineering behind the products we love and behind the music we love. What is the issue with Amir here? It really makes no sense now. The issue is Amir relies on his measuring equipment to tell him if a product should sound good or not, unfortunately no measuring equipment is currently good enough to do this. Summit, Ajax, PeterSt and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 Even though I do not agree with Stereophile, sometimes (MQA Cough cough), I find their measurements at least understandable and reproducible. At least I trust them. PeterSt 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 minute ago, plissken said: I'm not ridiculing you. If you believe your points that support $14k to $40k devices that reproduce pedestrian 20Hz to 20Khz then that is what you believe. My red herring part comes into what you are saying about products that don't come with that price tag. That is support, build quality, longevity. Sorry I just don't accept that based on my experience. It's routine to get 10-12 years out of sub $1K electronics. My Samsung Plasma is going on 11 years old and showing no problems. My Sanyo PLV Z60 PJ is 11 years old and looks great with a bulb replacement. Both under the $1K mark. Sorry that you read that as ridicule. I thought when I posted about the $499 DC-1 still going strong after 10 years that I answered that. I should note that I do t mean a product still works for ten years. I mean new features are added for ten years. Plus, these companies will still fix the products decades after they are out of production. Audio Research has a million bucks worth of parts for old products. I like that and value not throwing away a product because it breaks. My Samsung Frame TV lasted 2 years. Samsung said sorry. 🙂 botrytis and Teresa 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
plissken Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 1 hour ago, JoeWhip said: Nice try plisskin. Speaking of bullshit, that is just what guessing the Yggy will sound like is from reading Amir’s measurements, bullshit. I haven't guessed anything about the sound. I just don't see it as a high fidelity device. Anyone is free to try what ever they like. Link to comment
Popular Post asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Popular Post Share Posted February 26, 2021 Just now, Rexp said: The issue is Amir relies on his measuring equipment to tell him if a product should sound good or not, unfortunately no measuring equipment is currently good enough to do this. No - measurements and careful listening tests. He doesn't need to show videos of him doing blind testing because that would be silly. He leaves it to the reader/viewer to do because that makes more sense... use your own pair of ears. i.e. go demo stuff yourself! If you have good speakers and headphones, their design would have been guided by Dr. Floyd Toole and/or Dr. Sean Olive's research. And surprise surprise, they are big on measurements and listening tests... Teresa and Ajax 1 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 4 minutes ago, asdf1000 said: You're still talking about DACs and I said the site has moved well past and onto things that produce sound (speakers and headphones) and the things that drive those (amps). You are right you shouldn't care about DACs ! DACs are solved by the competent Engineers - even by Schiit Audio now (they are sending DACs to Amir to measure and doing well). Not sure why you single out Chinese but you're not reading what I wrote before or conveniently ignoring - RME engineer is there and product measured superbly, Chord Qutest measured superbly. Benchmark DAC, superb. Universal Audio's top end pro audio interface measured state of the art. Please read my examples carefully and no need to bring Chinese into it? Even though many of them have solved the DAC performance thing too. The funniest thing with the Schiit example is that the Engineers of Schiit products listened and changed their engineering and now send gear to Amir. But the consumers are still stuck in their mindset. i find that comical But move beyond DACs. And forget about the engineers being on the forum if that is distracting you. KEF R3, Genelec monitors, KRK monitors, Neumann monitors, Sennheiser headphones, Dan Clarke headphones, Purifi based amps, Hypex based amps, THX based amps - all getting great measurements and recommendations. The whinging about measurements has become silly when you look at the overall picture Respectfully please don't bring up DACs again 😃 I think we have a major miscommunication issue. I don’t want to taint our other good forum conversations that are productive 🙂 I just don’t understand the appeal to authority, but I have a feeling you aren’t trying to do that even though that’s what I see. This, I’ll stop now and say that I’ll continue to enjoy our discussions on the Merging Anubis. asdf1000 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 21 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I just don’t understand the appeal to authority If the authority is the engineers making the gear I love and behind the music I love, I have no issues with appeal to authority in this particular / specific case - as long is it is verified ! I don't understand how that can be seen as unreasonable. All I'm interested in, is "does it do what the manufacturer says it does". Nothing more, nothing less. For all those examples I shared, the answer is yes. These products do what THEY claim they do (their own specs!). Before Amir, I had Stereophile (JA's measurements) to go to. Now I have 2 sources to go to. I don't equate measurements to SQ. There seems to be a strong (non-scientific) correlation from personal experience but I try to keep the 2 separate myself. 21 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I don’t want to taint our other good forum conversations that are productive 🙂 I am DREADING the day he gets his hands on one and says it doesn't do what Merging says it does😄 Btw I have measured Anubis and their specs do match up nicely with measurements. Easy to measure itself with it's pretty high res ADC (SINAD = 109dB LOL). But yes, let's continue good Anubis convo's and park this debate till next time. I'm hoping to make Munch show next year so maybe we can share a beer with Jussi and finally settle the technical debate once and for all and publish an AES journal LOL Link to comment
plissken Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I should note that I do t mean a product still works for ten years. I mean new features are added for ten years. Plus, these companies will still fix the products decades after they are out of production. Audio Research has a million bucks worth of parts for old products. I like that and value not throwing away a product because it breaks. My Samsung Frame TV lasted 2 years. Samsung said sorry. 🙂 Going to try this again... If your Samsung Frame TV was $2K and lasted for 2 years you are maintaining that you would purchase a $14K to $40K TV if it meant you could get service for it? Why didn't you spend on a 4 year extended warranty? To take this further you would get software updates for 10 years. What you aren't going to get is increased resolution or better HDR bit rates as time goes on. The only thing that guarantees that is a newer device. Your preference is your preference but honestly I don't see the logic in the spend. It's poor ROI IMO. Teresa 1 Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 13 minutes ago, asdf1000 said: I'm hoping to make Munch show next year so maybe we can share a beer with Jussi and finally settle the technical debate once and for all and publish an AES journal LOL Would love to meet! asdf1000 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
plissken Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 I went and looked at the DCS Debussy DAC circa 2011. What software updates have they been able to manage at $11,000 that does what my $460 refresh does: 512DSD, MQA, 32/768, Bluetooth LDAC and APT-X HD. What I don't have information on is what the % problem rate is between the $11,000 and $499 DAC's of the time. You have me dead to rights on that one 🙄 Now the DCS will do 6 volt where the SMSL SU-9 maxes out at 4.7. But my amps only require 4 volt to hit WOT. Interesting when I searched for the DCS Debussy: Link to comment
botrytis Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 14 minutes ago, plissken said: Going to try this again... If your Samsung Frame TV was $2K and lasted for 2 years you are maintaining that you would purchase a $14K to $40K TV if it meant you could get service for it? Why didn't you spend on a 4 year extended warranty? To take this further you would get software updates for 10 years. What you aren't going to get is increased resolution or better HDR bit rates as time goes on. The only thing that guarantees that is a newer device. Your preference is your preference but honestly I don't see the logic in the spend. It's poor ROI IMO. I have a 43" Pioneer Plasma that I bought in 2002 for 2500 bucks at the time. I still have it and it still works. What does that say... It does weigh over 100 lbs, so moving it solo is a pain in the ass. Teresa 1 Current: Daphile on an AMD A10-9500 with 16 GB RAM DAC - TEAC UD-501 DAC Pre-amp - Rotel RC-1590 Amplification - Benchmark AHB2 amplifier Speakers - Revel M126Be with 2 REL 7/ti subwoofers Cables - Tara Labs RSC Reference and Blue Jean Cable Balanced Interconnects Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 A great take on ASR by Rob H in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, just ignore Amir's subjective comments and who cares what another pair of ears hears anyway :-) And as I mentioned earlier, he has verified that Genelec, KEF R3, Neumann monitors, KRK monitors, Focal speakers, Benchmark interface, Focusrite interface, Motu interface, Chord Qutest DAC, RME interface, Benchmark amp, new Schiit Audio products etc, do what the manufacturers say they do . I didn't even mention JBL and Revel there in case someone screams conflict of interest even though measurements and measurements. I agree the way Amir writes has/can put some people off but I find that easy to filter and just look at the data. And Rob H does point out some of the flaws in measurements (which Amir acknowledges himself!) And I agree with some of the points about some fanatics over there. 3rd party verification (done well) is always a good thing. Does it do what the manufacturer says it does. If someone argues we should have less 3rd part verification in this world, well I'm lost. Link to comment
Rexp Posted February 26, 2021 Share Posted February 26, 2021 21 minutes ago, asdf1000 said: A great take on ASR by Rob H in my opinion. As I mentioned earlier, just ignore Amir's subjective comments and who cares what another pair of ears hears anyway :-) And as I mentioned earlier, he has verified that Genelec, KEF R3, Neumann monitors, KRK monitors, Focal speakers, Benchmark interface, Focusrite interface, Motu interface, Chord Qutest DAC, RME interface, Benchmark amp, new Schiit Audio products etc, do what the manufacturers say they do . I didn't even mention JBL and Revel there in case someone screams conflict of interest even though measurements and measurements. I agree the way Amir writes has/can put some people off but I find that easy to filter and just look at the data. And Rob H does point out some of the flaws in measurements (which Amir acknowledges himself!) And I agree with some of the points about some fanatics over there. 3rd party verification (done well) is always a good thing. Does it do what the manufacturer says it does. If someone argues we should have less 3rd part verification in this world, well I'm lost. If you rely on meaningless measurements, your are lost. Link to comment
asdf1000 Posted February 26, 2021 Author Share Posted February 26, 2021 18 minutes ago, Rexp said: If you rely on meaningless measurements, your are lost. Meaningless? KEF, Genelec, Harman, Neumann engineers don't think they are meaningless. Your opinion is your opinion but they are lost and you are found? 😄 And I don't "rely" on measurements - I consider them. I like to know that what the manufacturer says something does, it does. If you like to be lied to, that's fine for you. I'm lost if someone wants less 3rd party verification in this world. The world should have just trusted VW and a regulator shouldn't have measured right ;-) I am not drawing any similarity between the importance of audio hobby and climate change - the point of the example is sometimes you can't trust what a manufacturer tells you unless you have someone check 😉There have been examples of this in HiFi as Amir has found. Link to comment
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