Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

[crenca]

11 hours ago, kennyb123 said:

 

...Those who may generally open to discussing religion (and even those who don't) tend not to appreciate when evangelists show up at their front door.... Attacking one's beliefs tends to cause them to take a stronger stand in favor of their beliefs. That's why I find it hard to believe that the goal is to save someone from themselves or to try to change their thinking or to help them out in any way.  

 

 

 

Exactly.  So why is this thread, this site, or Audiophiledom in general "your door"?  Who are you to claim you should be sheltered from the divide, from what in fact is a cultural "war" about the what and how of audio?  There are "objectivist" sites and there are "subjectivist" sites that shelter their respective constituencies from the uncomfortable audio divide.  You in the OP are simply arguing for your side, denigrating the other side as bad, "attacking", etc.  The OP wants (he explicitly says so) the objectivists to play by subjectivist rules, essentially not being objectivists at all.  You apparently agree with him

 

I believe you, no doubt you have been made uncomfortable (i.e. "attacked") by the presences of not just "objectivism", but at times even "radical objectivism" that is the functional equivalent of the unwanted evangelist at your door.  Well cry me a river. 

 

Welcome to "The Big Crazy".

 

You could seek out a mono-culture hobby - one that does not have uncomfortable disagreements and thus evangelism? Anyone know of such a hobby?

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, wgscott said:

@The Computer Audiophile

 

Any chance we might be able to have a guest editorial from the opposite point of view?

 

Absolutely 100%. 

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

What Big Crazy?  Nothing to see here, move along move along...

 

You know Chris, I halfway expect you to soon start arguing that the labels are good corporate citizens, well run, and have the best interests of the artists and consumers at heart...

How convenient. I ask for objective data and you shoot the messenger. What's next, pour water on the guy who pulled the fire alarm?

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, crenca said:

I believe you, no doubt you have been made uncomfortable (i.e. "attacked") by the presences of not just "objectivism", but at times even "radical objectivism" that is the functional equivalent of the unwanted evangelist at your door.  Well cry me a river. 

 

Welcome to "The Big Crazy".

 

You could seek out a mono-culture hobby - one that does not have uncomfortable disagreements and thus evangelism? Anyone know of such a hobby?

Seriously, if you dislike it here so much, dislike 99% of the people here, dislike the hobby many people love, then it's time to move on. 

[crenca]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

What's next, pour water on the guy who pulled the fire alarm?

 

Already did that to @kennyb123just above 😉  The cold water of the reality of audiophilia... 😂 

[crenca]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Seriously, if you dislike it here so much, dislike 99% of the people here, dislike the hobby many people love, then it's time to move on. 

 

 

What are you even talking about - is not part of your and the OP's complaint that objectivist revel in, even make a "religion" out of disagreeing with subjectivists?  

 

Here is another cliche of the subjective/objective divide in the background of this conversation:

 

Subjectivist get along and "like" their fellow audiophiles, where as objectivists are grumpy misanthropes who just can't get along...

[MhtLion]

Great article! And, great conversations!!  

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, crenca said:

 

 

What are you even talking about - is not part of your and the OP's complaint that objectivist revel in, even make a "religion" out of disagreeing with subjectivists?  

 

Here is another cliche of the subjective/objective divide in the background of this conversation:

 

Subjectivist get along and "like" their fellow audiophiles, where as objectivists are grumpy misanthropes who just can't get along...

If you're here just for the sport of arguing or making this the front line in your war on HiFi, it's time to move on. If you're here to increase your enjoyment of HiFi and music listening, then please stay, but start to act like this is why you're here. 

[crenca]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

If you're here just for the sport of arguing or making this the front line in your war on HiFi, it's time to move on. If you're here to increase your enjoyment of HiFi and music listening, then please stay, but start to act like this is why you're here. 

 

I'm not a good actor and so help me out here:

 

Since for the OP and yourself "HiFi" is the subjectivist understanding of it, what would an objectivist-playing-the-subjectivist look like to you?  Or are you saying that I should undergo a religious (of the audio kind) conversion, one from objectivism to subjectivism?  I and every other objectivist have to know, because if such an ultimatum is issued we have to know how we are going to be graded and judged.  It's an honest question, since I enjoy being an audio objectivist, and don't have the slightest clue as how to enjoy being an audio subjectivist.

 

Seriously, it just this sort of absurdity the divide leads to if either side demands capitulation and conversion from the other....wait, is that not exactly what the OP and yourself are saying is bad!

 

@wgscottis right to call for an editorial from another perspective...I would enjoy that 😉

 

p.s. I have been sporting the new ZMV Verite Closed for about a week now.  If you want I can do a (quite subjective) write up as I have been enjoying them very much! 

[Ralf11]

4 hours ago, firedog said:

The corrective force quote was ARQ, not me.

 

We don't need a corrective force.

 

We need this:

 

 

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, Iving said:

 

What nonsense

 

the kind that violates physical law

 

physics is not sociology 

[The Computer Audiophile]

32 minutes ago, crenca said:

Seriously, it just this sort of absurdity the divide leads to if either side demands capitulation and conversion from the other....wait, is that not exactly what the OP and yourself are saying is bad!

You've created the absurdity in your head. I never said anything like it.

 

If capitulation means being civil and treating people well, then capitulate.

[kennyb123]

3 hours ago, crenca said:

Welcome to "The Big Crazy".

 

I couldn’t have better summarized your comments to me.  😀

[Teresa]

4 hours ago, crenca said:

...There are "objectivist" sites and there are "subjectivist" sites that shelter their respective constituencies from the uncomfortable audio divide...

 

Exactly. I can only speak for myself. I read posts here as I like to read all sides of a topic.

 

As you say if one wants to be sheltered from the other side they can join objectivists only or subjectivists only sites.

 

P.S. No one is on my ignore list, I really do like to read all sides.

[thyname]

I have no issue with the "objectivists" posting about audio, as long as it is based on their own, actual experience, of owning and using (or measuring) the gear under review.

 

My issue is with the usual types / names in here never actually posting anything about any piece of gear, sharing their experiences, discussing features and helping people who ask, evaluate a purchase. It seems like the only time these guys post is to either bash something, or getting into useless theoretical arguments. So what's the value they add to any online audiophile forum other than denounce "snake oil"?

[Ralf11]

26 minutes ago, thyname said:

My issue is with the usual types / names in here never actually posting anything about any piece of gear, sharing their experiences, discussing features and helping people who ask, evaluate a purchase. It seems like the only time these guys post is to either bash something, or getting into useless theoretical arguments. So what's the value they add to any online audiophile forum other than denounce "snake oil"?

 

I think the added value you are searching for is called "physics"

[christopher3393]

A little historical context on this article and thread from the AS archives:

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/22945-god-and-the-audiophiles/#comments

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28300-why-do-objectivists-get-so-upset/#comments

 

[Ski Bum]

I congratulate Joel Alperson on his highly civilized call for better behavior.  I'm not sure that I fully agree with the analogy to religion, but he could be right.

 

In the case of a number of posters, I find that the accuracy of their posts is inversely proportional to the certainty with which they are expressed.  I am willing to acknowledge that I am not always right, and that needs to be taken into consideration in the language and tone of my posts.

[christopher3393]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

 

I think the added value you are searching for is called "physics"

 

Just an aside: I just love physics evangelism, don't you? 

 

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, thyname said:

I have no issue with the "objectivists" posting about audio, as long as it is based on their own, actual experience, of owning and using (or measuring) the gear under review.

 

 

Does this only apply to  "objectivists" as you define it - or to everyone???

 

I am thinking of one non-objective individual in particular, who frequently disrupts threads with his angry posts, yet never comments on his own actual experience of the gear under discussion.  He also has a hearing loss.

[christopher3393]

@wgscott, how is the link with these threads, started by @joelha, on the same topic, are off topic?

 

2 hours ago, christopher3393 said:

A little historical context on this article and thread from the AS archives:

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/22945-god-and-the-audiophiles/#comments

 

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/28300-why-do-objectivists-get-so-upset/#comments

 

 

[whell]

8 hours ago, crenca said:

You could seek out a mono-culture hobby - one that does not have uncomfortable disagreements and thus evangelism? Anyone know of such a hobby?

Whittling?

[thyname]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

 

Does this only apply to  "objectivists" as you define it - or to everyone???

 

I am thinking of one non-objective individual in particular, who frequently disrupts threads with his angry posts, yet never comments on his own actual experience of the gear under discussion.  He also has a hearing loss.

‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2+2 always = 4. I don’t believe people must get out the paper and pencil in order to talk about it with others. Just my thoughts on this one. 
 

I wish some of the objectivists talked more about their listening experiences but everyone has their specialty and I’m reluctantly OK with it. 
 

 

[Ralf11]

who here doesn’t even own an audio system, or doesn’t even listen to music ???

[thyname]

Just now, Ralf11 said:

who here doesn’t even own an audio system, or doesn’t even listen to music ???

‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count