Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 7 minutes ago, STC said: But shouldn’t that request come from the OP him/herself? What we usually have is others who are objecting to the opposing views rather than the OP. Ideally yes, but in practice it isn't working how I'd like. I'm currently working on some remedies. Teresa, Middy, tapatrick and 1 other 3 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: We have people enjoying themselves by using products others don't believe can possibly make a difference. They aren't interested in hearing from anyone else. Then why are they posting on the internet? wgscott, mansr and askat1988 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 30 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Then why are they posting on the internet? The term "anyone else" refers to those who prefer to thread crap, demand ABX testing, question their sanity, and try to save them from themselves. There's a time a place for everything. daverich4 and Teresa 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post thyname Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 46 minutes ago, Ralf11 said: Then why are they posting on the internet? ‘Because they are out there to get you 🙄 Thank God we have you and some other “slayers of snake oil” and “the ABX Audiophile” to save the humanity from this genocide 🙄 You even have a banner now daverich4, tapatrick and opus101 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post kennyb123 Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 15 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: The term "anyone else" refers to those who prefer to thread crap, demand ABX testing, question their sanity, and try to save them from themselves. There's a time a place for everything. Exactly. Those who may generally open to discussing religion (and even those who don't) tend not to appreciate when evangelists show up at their front door. Having said that, I think I'd prefer evangelists showing up at my front door over ABXers disrupting my threads. The door-to-door evangelists tend to be polite and considerate - they'll even go away once you tell them you're not interested. What the evangelists realize is that by leaving a good impression, the person they tried to evangelize might be more open to hearing what they have to say the next time. If it's that important to change people's minds, why go out of the way to denigrate these people? Attacking one's beliefs tends to cause them to take a stronger stand in favor of their beliefs. That's why I find it hard to believe that the goal is to save someone from themselves or to try to change their thinking or to help them out in any way. Teresa, The Computer Audiophile, Ed Sky and 3 others 4 1 1 Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Popular Post firedog Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 8 hours ago, ARQuint said: And FD, I feel that you and a few others just don't understand what's at stake here. It seems so obvious to me. For the umpteenth time, my concern isn't who is right or wrong on the MQA question, but rather, the way we talk to each other about it. I assure you: I read every word of Archimago's analysis and was impressed; I'm no happier to see his abilities called into question than the integrity and competence of those in the pro-MQA camp—for example, people like my dear friend Peter McGrath. I'd been reading Audiophile Style without posting—"lurking"—for months before Joel's editorial was published two days ago. I'm being genuine when I say that I'm tremendously impressed with Chris's decision to present it as he did, in a way that acknowledged the vital importance of the issue of civility. There's been an explosive response, mostly from two constituencies. The first is a large group of members that's as concerned as the OP about the manner in which a vocal minority attack those with different opinions than their own. The second are representatives of that minority who recognize themselves in Joel's essay and don't like the characterization. I can detect, from some of them, annoyance and even frank anger with The Computer Audiophile for publishing the editorial, viewing it as a kind a slap in the face. I suppose it is. But it's a subject that needs addressing and that outpouring of reaction—more than 500 postings in two days!—is very telling. I'll try returning to lurking status and observe what I hope will be the growth of a corrective force. Andrew Quint Senior Writer The Absolute Sound I guess that's all fine. I try not to be an attacker. But most of your posts have a bit of finger wagging in them, and in spite of what you write here, you've often sided with the "if it isn't civil or is under a pseudonym, I don't have to relate to the merits of the argument" camp. And your various friends' professional competence has rarely been attacked: what's been attacked are positions they take, and marketing spin being presented as truth and fact. Even some of the most professionally competent people in the world can be guilty of that. tapatrick, Don Hills and Ralf11 3 Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: This line of thinking interests me. Why is it a problem that, "they started talking about a product based on objective attributes and concludes about its sound quality subjectively?" And, why should they be able, "able to demonstrate your preference consistently?" They aren't producing a drug for epilepsy. They are having fun in their own way. What's the worst that can happen if they are allowed to discuss their listening impressions unchallenged? The worst? You get the entire high end snake oil industry. Not all high end is snake oil, but these days the overwhelming majority of it is. It is in the millions of dollars of fraudulent product. Maybe it is like non-prescription boner supplements. I don't see it as a good thing. I mean maybe the people buying that are convincing themselves and having the best kind of fun. So does it sound like praise or a compliment or a good goal to say much of the subjectivist based audio industry is just as good as Enzyte? We have Enzyte Bob, and we have MQA Bob. Maybe they are about equal. pkane2001 and crenca 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post Ralf11 Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 2 hours ago, thyname said: ‘Because they are out there to get you 🙄 Thank God we have you and some other “slayers of snake oil” and “the ABX Audiophile” to save the humanity from this genocide 🙄 You even have a banner now How about some CIVILITY? tapatrick, kumakuma, pkane2001 and 2 others 2 3 Link to comment
tapatrick Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 14 hours ago, vmartell22 said: Indeed - lemme try to summarize in this context - because you have a point 1.- I think the general idea of the editorial is that audiophiles are requesting the same respect that, let's say, the wine hobby/industry - That is, if I hear it (or taste it) then that's it, that is my take on it and I am contributing valuable insights. Because ( and hope I am not wrong) that seems to be the general aim of the audiophile practice (at least the subjective one, which seems to include most of the industry and its consumers). Might add, though, that wine industry is also on very iffy grounds: v Thank you for your full post, generously written. I understand your position and sympathise with much of the same. There is much value in understanding others point of view (essential in fact). Would love to fill out my take on this subject more fully but just don't have time at present.... have a good day. Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Popular Post tapatrick Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 15 hours ago, crenca said: I like how you put all this. I admit I wish the "live and let live" subjectivism you propose here was a truly neutral ground upon which the "comradery" of audio could be based on. Even if you don't agree with all the reasons I and others state why it is not, surely the day to day evidence and the existence of the objective/subjective divide makes you question your faith (to use a word ) in it?? 👍 anyone attempting to introduce a non binary perspective gets my vote. 😊 crenca and 4est 2 Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
tapatrick Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 4 hours ago, firedog said: and observe what I hope will be the growth of a corrective force. We live in hope... at least I do. Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
The Computer Audiophile Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 5 hours ago, esldude said: The worst? You get the entire high end snake oil industry. Not all high end is snake oil, but these days the overwhelming majority of it is. It is in the millions of dollars of fraudulent product. Maybe it is like non-prescription boner supplements. I don't see it as a good thing. I mean maybe the people buying that are convincing themselves and having the best kind of fun. So does it sound like praise or a compliment or a good goal to say much of the subjectivist based audio industry is just as good as Enzyte? We have Enzyte Bob, and we have MQA Bob. Maybe they are about equal. I think your scenario is extremely far fetched. I also see no objective data that an “overwhelming majority” of the industry is snake oil. Teresa 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
mansr Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I also see no objective data that an “overwhelming majority” of the industry is snake oil. Name five "high-end" audio companies. Humour me, please. Link to comment
thyname Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 6 hours ago, Ralf11 said: How about some CIVILITY? That's what I tell to those guys who throw this banner on my face all the time. But they don't listen Link to comment
firedog Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 3 hours ago, tapatrick said: We live in hope... at least I do. The corrective force quote was ARQ, not me. Main listening (small home office): Main setup: Surge protector +>Isol-8 Mini sub Axis Power Strip/Isolation>QuietPC Low Noise Server>Roon (Audiolense DRC)>Stack Audio Link II>Kii Control>Kii Three (on their own electric circuit) >GIK Room Treatments. Secondary Path: Server with Audiolense RC>RPi4 or analog>Cayin iDAC6 MKII (tube mode) (XLR)>Kii Three . Bedroom: SBTouch to Cambridge Soundworks Desktop Setup. Living Room/Kitchen: Ropieee (RPi3b+ with touchscreen) + Schiit Modi3E to a pair of Morel Hogtalare. All absolute statements about audio are false Link to comment
Popular Post tapatrick Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 20 hours ago, vmartell22 said: 5. Last, I will get personal. Why do I get into it? Believe it or not, it has to do with the zeitgeist and the current political climate. Lots of anti-scientific thinking right now, from anti-vaxxers to flat earthers, climate change denial, etc. This is a direct attack on humanity. Yes, flat earthers, for example are ridiculous and relatively innocuous. Yet , such promotion of anti-science still has a detrimental effect. It promotes fear of knowledge and education, to the point that in some realms, educated persons and scientists are "an elite" that is not to be trusted etc. And in order to fight against that (because it really needs to be fought) I actively oppose it anytime I see it. And yes, it can be even dangerous, IRL. But because the stakes are pretty high we really need to do it. But I will continue and I do promise to try to live and let live. v I admire your sincerity, passion and care for the world, anyone who doesn't just want suspended animation plus Netflix has to pick their arena of engagement.. Getting personal too - after much consideration, the study of the nature of mind seems to be the only endeavour that makes fullest sense to me. That's the application of science to me! Not in abstraction or isolation but within a hierarchy of value. Hence my mentioning why I find understanding a persons context as being so important. Every posting on a thread like this is not just responding to what is necessarily claimed but contains a constellation of other factors, some overlapping briefly with the topic or recipient - most not. Those that overlap and even meet beyond a previous difference to me are of a higher value. Possibly not the time or place for philosophy but underneath and on top of the discussion I hear the grappling with big issues and ones place in that. Why would so many like yourself mention the state of the world etc and proclamations of fighting for their cause... on a hifi forum! Badly worded or not by anyone, seriously interesting... Jeez, I generally only visit AS in the hope of finding inexpensive tweaks to apply to my system on weekends, so that I can access more dopamine when I listen to music 😂 Superdad and TheWallsHaveEars 1 1 Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
tapatrick Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 31 minutes ago, firedog said: The corrective force quote was ARQ, not me. understood... 👍 I was responding to the broadest sense of the term and corrective being benevolent.. Topaz 2.5Kva Isolation Transformer > EtherRegen switch powered by Paul Hynes SR4 LPS >MacBook Pro 2013 > EC Designs PowerDac SX > TNT UBYTE-2 Speaker cables > Omega Super Alnico Monitors > 2x Rel T Zero Subwoofers. Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 12, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 12, 2019 @The Computer Audiophile Any chance we might be able to have a guest editorial from the opposite point of view? 4est, pkane2001, Ralf11 and 1 other 1 2 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 5 minutes ago, wgscott said: @The Computer Audiophile Any chance we might be able to have a guest editorial from the opposite point of view? Leaving aside insistence on opposition - you really think discussing Heads means more than discussing Tails? More pain? No thanks It *was* better than TV - but now 20 pages later it isn't. Superdad 1 Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, Iving said: Leaving aside insistence on opposition - you really think discussing Heads means more than discussing Tails? More pain? No thanks It *was* better than TV - but now 20 pages later it isn't. Why would you rather suppress a differing point of view, rather than simply skip over it if you are not interested? Just because the church's Canon is all you wish to read doesn't mean that this is true for everyone else. Link to comment
Iving Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, wgscott said: Why would you rather suppress a differing point of view, rather than simply skip over it if you are not interested? Just because the church's Canon is all you wish to read doesn't mean that this is true for everyone else. What nonsense Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 Just now, Iving said: What nonsense You don't have to watch the PBS pledge drive if you don't need the tote bag. Superdad 1 Link to comment
Iving Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 qed this thread is more psychological warfare than reasonable discussion carry on with my many blessings wgscott and kumakuma 1 1 Link to comment
wgscott Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 On 12/10/2019 at 11:51 AM, Iving said: Talk about patronising ... Couldn't have said it better myself. Link to comment
crenca Posted December 12, 2019 Share Posted December 12, 2019 3 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I think your scenario is extremely far fetched. I also see no objective data that an “overwhelming majority” of the industry is snake oil. What Big Crazy? Nothing to see here, move along move along... You know Chris, I halfway expect you to soon start arguing that the labels are good corporate citizens, well run, and have the best interests of the artists and consumers at heart... Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
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