Article: Guest Editorial: Why did audio stop being about audio?

[thyname]

Based on your first post @tmtomh , who is right and wrong in the following situation?

 

Person A owns The Amp. She likes it a lot, and goes online in a forum sharing her experience with this Amp. She has owned many amps over the past 25 years, and is an avid hobbyist 

 

Person B does not own this Amp, and never lead her eyes on it. She does not even own an audio system. However, she read the measurements of this Amp that His Majesty posted in his website. Graphs and all. Person B goes to the same forum, and tells person A that she is being scammed, and the Amp is rubbish, measures pretty bad, and sounds terrible 

 

Was the person A wrong to share her experience with her fellow hobbyists? Or was Person B wrong to spoil her party? 

[tmtomh]

22 minutes ago, thyname said:

Then what would be the point in discussing with other people in a hobby forum like this? This is definitely not a need, like nutrition, or thirst. It’s a hobby. We are here to discuss with each other about the hobby. This is not a life or death situation.

‘You really took my measurement comment in the most serious context. All I was saying is that the opinion of an objectivist, or of anyone for that matter, is totally acceptable by me if that person has actual personal experience with something. Not simply because he read some measurements that His Majesty posted in the Internets. Does it make sense? Or are you really implying that if someone who has those special instruments, and measures this stuff, is the absolute authority in all audio, and 100% of the population should buy what he determined to have the most superior measurements?

 

To your first point, I think I've made it very clear that folks can and should share their experiences: I said "they can and I would hope they would feel free to do so" - that means I agree with you that sharing of experiences is good and desirable. 

 

The term "need" appeared in my comment there because "need" was the word you used in your comment, and I was responding to that.

 

To your second point, I did indeed take your measurement comment "in the most serious context," meaning I read what you wrote and interpreted it in what I am confident is a reasonable manner.

 

And once again, it doesn't matter if you take a measurement or if you read someone else's measurement, as long as there is a reasonable presumption that the person did the measurement honestly and competently.

 

To be clear, I do not think that people who have special instruments and take measurements are "the absolute authority in all audio, and 100% of the population should buy what [they] determined to have the most superior measurements." But I do think that measurements taken with "special instruments" do have authority as measurements of the performance of whatever equipment is being measured.

 

For example, recently on another audio web forum, the site owner posted measurements of a pretty expensive DAC made by a well-known high-end brand. This DAC turned out to have some rather poor measurements. For example, the SINAD measurement - basically a measurement of noise plus distortion - was shockingly low for a piece of equipment with that price, that build quality, and the level of audiophile performance the manufacturer claims for it. The SINAD measurement included fairly high 2nd and 3rd order harmonic distortion, and the measurement was bad/low enough that the noise and/or distortion were likely to be audible, at least in some situations.

 

Does that mean I will not buy it? Absolutely. Does it mean you should rule out buying it? Not at all - that's entirely up to you.

 

However, I will say this: if someone posts their subjective experience with that DAC and they say it sounds wonderful to them and sounds better than other DACs - perhaps more detailed, or airy, with better reproduction of ambient cues and micro-details, my belief in the value of measurement will draw me to a particular conclusion. That conclusion will be that the person who loves this DAC is probably hearing euphonic (pleasing) effects of that high 2nd and 3rd order distortion. I will note that an "airy" or "ambient quality" along with the perception of added detail is consistent with the presence of certain low-order harmonic distortion products added to the signal. I cannot be sure of that of course - but combining the person's listening report with the measurements and the unit's high price, I will conclude that this DAC is not for me - I am not likely to enjoy its unique sonic signature and it would be a bad bet for me to spend my money on this DAC.

 

Note that in this example I do not for one second think that the owner did not hear what they claim they heard - my entire conclusion is based on believing their experience. And so I find their experience valuable. And I believe they find this DAC to sound better than others.

 

The difference is that I also factor in the measurements, and so I don't believe that I will share their opinion/experience of this DAC if I buy it for myself - instead, I believe that I am likely not to enjoy this DAC.

 

Now, I could be wrong. But the most likely scenario is that I'm right - and I'm certainly not going to spend $1000s just to prove to you or anyone else on a web forum that my hunch is correct. None of us has the time or money to buy more than a tiny fraction of all the available products out there, so we all have to make our best guesses and hypotheses about what we are likely to enjoy, so we can narrow down our purchasing choices.

[thyname]

This reminds me of my friend who was enjoying his Border Patrol DAC for months. He kept telling me this is the best DAC he had ever owned. Until Stereophile posted those measurements, at which point my friend decided he did not like the DAC anymore, and sold it

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, thyname said:

This reminds me of my friend who was enjoying his Border Patrol DAC for months. He kept telling me this is the best DAC he had ever owned. Until Stereophile posted those measurements, at which point my friend decided he did not like the DAC anymore, and sold it

That’s a personal problem unaddressable by anything anyone can do here. I’m not making light of it, just stating what I believe to be fact. 

[tmtomh]

4 minutes ago, thyname said:

Based on your first post @tmtomh , who is right and wrong in the following situation?

 

Person A owns The Amp. She likes it a lot, and goes online in a forum sharing her experience with this Amp. She has owned many amps over the past 25 years, and is an avid hobbyist 

 

Person B does not own this Amp, and never lead her eyes on it. She does not even own an audio system. However, she read the measurements of this Amp that His Majesty posted in his website. Graphs and all. Person B goes to the same forum, and tells person A that she is being scammed, and the Amp is rubbish, measures pretty bad, and sounds terrible 

 

See the long comment I just posted in response to one of your earlier comments.

 

In this example, I would say Person B is in the wrong because they are being unnecessarily rude to Person A. There is no evidence that Person A is "being scammed," that the amp is "rubbish," or that it "sounds terrible." But if it does measure badly, then that's a fact, and Person B is absolutely, positively not in the wrong for pointing that out.

 

Now, a much more realistic scenario is that Person B does not own this amp, and never laid eyes on it, but does own an audio system. Person B read the measurements of this amp and goes onto the forum and points out that the amp does not measure well and that there are other amps available with better measured performance for the same money.

 

I can understand how Person A would feel deflated or irritated by that, but the mere fact that Person A would have preferred not to get that response does not mean Person B is in the wrong.

 

I understand that there are some people here who can be quite rude at times. But even they do not conform to the over-the-top Straw Man you have concocted as your Person B here.

 

Finally, if you don't care about measurements and you don't think measurements have any correlation to sonics or any informational value, that is your prerogative. But it's rather rich that you are calling out "objectivists" for rudely mocking and dismissing others when you seem to have an irresistible compulsion to call someone who does measurements "His Majesty" over and over again and refer to "graphs and all" in a sarcastic, dismissive manner that suggests you cannot tolerate or respect those who find value in measurements.

 

[wgscott]

14 minutes ago, thyname said:

Based on your first post @tmtomh , who is right and wrong in the following situation?

 

Person A owns The Amp. She likes it a lot, and goes online in a forum sharing her experience with this Amp. She has owned many amps over the past 25 years, and is an avid hobbyist 

 

Person B does not own this Amp, and never lead her eyes on it. She does not even own an audio system. However, she read the measurements of this Amp that His Majesty posted in his website. Graphs and all. Person B goes to the same forum, and tells person A that she is being scammed, and the Amp is rubbish, measures pretty bad, and sounds terrible 

 

Was the person A wrong to share her experience with her fellow hobbyists? Or was Person B wrong to spoil her party? 

 

There was a time when two women posted here, but the objectivist one got driven off.

[tmtomh]

12 minutes ago, thyname said:

This reminds me of my friend who was enjoying his Border Patrol DAC for months. He kept telling me this is the best DAC he had ever owned. Until Stereophile posted those measurements, at which point my friend decided he did not like the DAC anymore, and sold it

 

If my long and detailed comment above reminds you of this story, then with respect you're either unable or uninterested in actually reading comments before you reply to them. My point is not that we should get rid of equipment we like if it turns out to measure poorly. My point is that while you are free to ignore measurements, some of us value them and will use them as heuristic devices (guides) for what to buy or not buy in the first place.

 

Now, if you think that people like me are missing out on amazing sounding equipment because we rule out that equipment based on measurements, all I can tell you is that there are 100s, or 1000s of pieces of equipment out there and no one can possibly listen to them all or know for sure that the one they ended up buying really was the very best choice for them. But using measurements to help narrow my purchasing choices, I have been able to acquire affordable equipment that sounds good to me, and I have been able to upgrade my equipment without regrets - in other words on the infrequent occasions when I buy new equipment, I've always found it to be an audible improvement over the old stuff. So I sleep just fine with my method, and if you sleep just fine with yours, all the better.

[thyname]

4 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

But it's rather rich that you are calling out "objectivists" for rudely mocking and dismissing others when you seem to have an irresistible compulsion to call someone who does measurements "His Majesty" over and over again and refer to "graphs and all" in a sarcastic, dismissive manner that suggests you cannot tolerate or respect those who find value in measurement

‘I wrote nothing to suggest such a harsh conclusion you seem to have arrived at me. I was not rude, I was not mocking anyone, and I don’t have any “irresistible compulsion” on anyone. I don’t have sarcastic, dismissive manners. I simply laid out what I have seen happening in audio forums over and over again. To be clear, I am not accusing you on doing this. Don’t get tasty

[Ralf11]

When I think of all the worries
People seem to find
And how they're in a hurry
To complicate their minds

By chasing after jitter
And clocks that can't come true
I'm glad that we are different
We've better things to do

May others plan their future
We're busy listening to

Music.

 

- from the 1960s hit song "Let Listen Today"

[tmtomh]

Just now, thyname said:

‘I wrote nothing to suggest such a harsh conclusion you seem to have arrived at me. I was not rude, I was not mocking anyone, and I don’t have any “irresistible compulsion” on anyone. I don’t have sarcastic, dismissive manners. I simply laid out what I have seen happening in audio forums over and over again. To be clear, I am not accusing you on doing this. Don’t get tasty

 

First off, I do understand you're not accusing me of that bad behavior (and I appreciate you saying so).

 

I am not trying to be harsh towards you, and I hope we can avoid getting sidetracked on issues of rhetoric and tone - but I have to say that calling a certain person with a measurement-based web site "His Majesty" over and over again is indeed sarcastic and dismissive.

[thyname]

1 minute ago, tmtomh said:

 

First off, I do understand you're not accusing me of that bad behavior (and I appreciate you saying so).

 

I am not trying to be harsh towards you, and I hope we can avoid getting sidetracked on issues of rhetoric and tone - but I have to say that calling a certain person with a measurement-based web site "His Majesty" over and over again is indeed sarcastic and dismissive.

‘It’s a figure of speech. Personification of Authority. In the context of the superior entity with special skills and possession of superior, precision measuring tools. Nobody in particular. Why do you feel so strongly about my use of “Majesty” in this context?

[Ralf11]

Because it is indeed sarcastic and dismissive.  i.e. EXACTLY the complaint that started this long, tendentious thread

[tapatrick]

5 hours ago, thyname said:

‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music.

Do people like that exist ?!

[Middy]

Has the dead horse got up yet and asked not to be flogged anymore......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tapatrick]

6 hours ago, crenca said:

For magic pixie dust   

Must be awesome, the best ever.  Where can I get some, and next day delivery of course...

seriously tho’ thanks for posting your system which makes for interesting reading.  

[tapatrick]

49 minutes ago, Middy said:

Has the dead horse got up yet and asked not to be flogged anymore......

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Who you calling a horse!

[Middy]

I did have that nagging feeling..

[tmtomh]

7 hours ago, thyname said:

‘It’s a figure of speech. Personification of Authority. In the context of the superior entity with special skills and possession of superior, precision measuring tools. Nobody in particular. Why do you feel so strongly about my use of “Majesty” in this context?

 

I don't feel strongly about your use of "His Majesty" in this context.

 

But my level of feeling about you using that term has zero relevance to the question of whether or not your repeated use of that term is sarcastic and dismissive of the person you're referring to - and by extension to the measurements he does. The answer to that question is Yes, it is sarcastic and dismissive.

 

Why is that important? Only because your entire argument in this thread is that many objectivists are sarcastic and dismissive and you find that unacceptable. So I think it is hypocritical of you to make that argument given how you refer to "His Majesty."

 

I don't have to be emotionally invested in, or upset by, your use of that term in order to believe that doing so makes your argument hypocritical and therefore quite weak.

[mansr]

7 hours ago, tmtomh said:

See the long comment I just posted in response to one of your earlier comments.

 

In this example, I would say Person B is in the wrong because they are being unnecessarily rude to Person A. There is no evidence that Person A is "being scammed," that the amp is "rubbish," or that it "sounds terrible." But if it does measure badly, then that's a fact, and Person B is absolutely, positively not in the wrong for pointing that out.

 

Now, a much more realistic scenario is that Person B does not own this amp, and never laid eyes on it, but does own an audio system. Person B read the measurements of this amp and goes onto the forum and points out that the amp does not measure well and that there are other amps available with better measured performance for the same money.

 

I can understand how Person A would feel deflated or irritated by that, but the mere fact that Person A would have preferred not to get that response does not mean Person B is in the wrong.

 

I understand that there are some people here who can be quite rude at times. But even they do not conform to the over-the-top Straw Man you have concocted as your Person B here.

 

Finally, if you don't care about measurements and you don't think measurements have any correlation to sonics or any informational value, that is your prerogative. But it's rather rich that you are calling out "objectivists" for rudely mocking and dismissing others when you seem to have an irresistible compulsion to call someone who does measurements "His Majesty" over and over again and refer to "graphs and all" in a sarcastic, dismissive manner that suggests you cannot tolerate or respect those who find value in measurements.

Building on this example, consider the following (IMO realistic) scenario. Person A starts a thread explaining that he currently uses amp X, is looking to replace it, possibly with amp Y, and would like some input from others. Person B, who does not own amp Y, points out that when person C measured it, the results were rather poor, making it unlikely to be an improvement over amp X. Here person S shows up and accuses person B of being rude because there are people who in fact like amp Y. Person S then starts ranting about linear power supplies and USB drives, lashing out at anyone who tries to get the discussion back on track.

 

Tell me, who is the one causing problems here?

[mourip]

9 hours ago, thyname said:

This reminds me of my friend who was enjoying his Border Patrol DAC for months. He kept telling me this is the best DAC he had ever owned. Until Stereophile posted those measurements, at which point my friend decided he did not like the DAC anymore, and sold it

 

You have perfectly described what we often jokingly call "Audiophilia". It is a pathological form of insecurity where one feels that they cannot trust their own perception. Being happy is not enough. We need the approval of others. Instead of trusting our own ears we scour forums looking for a consensus that can never happen.

 

The only cure is to listen to more music and stop reading forums.

 

The very fact that I am replying here means that I am not there yet 🙂

[thyname]

Just now, mourip said:

The only cure is to listen to more music and stop reading forums.

 

You are absolutely right. Especially when said forums are flooded with...

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 hours ago, tmtomh said:

 

I don't feel strongly about your use of "His Majesty" in this context.

 

But my level of feeling about you using that term has zero relevance to the question of whether or not your repeated use of that term is sarcastic and dismissive of the person you're referring to - and by extension to the measurements he does. The answer to that question is Yes, it is sarcastic and dismissive.

 

Why is that important? Only because your entire argument in this thread is that many objectivists are sarcastic and dismissive and you find that unacceptable. So I think it is hypocritical of you to make that argument given how you refer to "His Majesty."

 

I don't have to be emotionally invested in, or upset by, your use of that term in order to believe that doing so makes your argument hypocritical and therefore quite weak.

 

I don't know how you do it, but your tone and delivery of logical information is terrific. Thanks for your participation on AS over the last six years. We don't always agree, but that's the fun part because of how you communicate. 

 

If more people were like you, I'd sleep very well at night. 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, mansr said:

Building on this example, consider the following (IMO realistic) scenario. Person A starts a thread explaining that he currently uses amp X, is looking to replace it, possibly with amp Y, and would like some input from others. Person B, who does not own amp Y, points out that when person C measured it, the results were rather poor, making it unlikely to be an improvement over amp X. Here person S shows up and accuses person B of being rude because there are people who in fact like amp Y. Person S then starts ranting about linear power supplies and USB drives, lashing out at anyone who tries to get the discussion back on track.

 

Tell me, who is the one causing problems here?

 

This is an easy one. Sandy is in the wrong. Did I just say that? Yes, I did because there is no need to beat around the bush. People on the ends of the HiFi continuum need to realize this is a community that only succeeds when we are respectful and civil. People seeking a war on subjectivists or objectivists or HiFi in general need to start their own community for such endeavors. I welcome, encourage, and thank everyone else for contributing here and increasing the collective enjoyment in our wonderful hobby 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, mourip said:

 

You have perfectly described what we often jokingly call "Audiophilia". It is a pathological form of insecurity where one feels that they cannot trust their own perception. Being happy is not enough. We need the approval of others. Instead of trusting our own ears we scour forums looking for a consensus that can never happen.

 

The only cure is to listen to more music and stop reading forums.

 

The very fact that I am replying here means that I am not there yet 🙂

 

Agree 100%, but not the part about stop reading forums :~)

[kumakuma]

@thyname

 

This isn't intended to be a dig but why do you start many of your posts with a single quote mark? 

 

The obsessive side of my personality has to ask.

 

13 hours ago, thyname said:

‘I thought so. You proved my point. 

 

 

12 hours ago, thyname said:

‘My HD800 were SDR modified (superDupont Resonator). They were my go-to headphones until I got Utopia. Street price on Utopia is way lower than MSRP. I remember I paid something like $2,500 or $2,600 all in a few years ago, brand new.

 

 

10 hours ago, thyname said:

‘I surely hope you are right, although I doubt it. What is your understanding of what he said? 

 

 

9 hours ago, thyname said:

‘I wrote nothing to suggest such a harsh conclusion you seem to have arrived at me. I was not rude, I was not mocking anyone, and I don’t have any “irresistible compulsion” on anyone. I don’t have sarcastic, dismissive manners. I simply laid out what I have seen happening in audio forums over and over again. To be clear, I am not accusing you on doing this. Don’t get tasty

 

9 hours ago, thyname said:

‘It’s a figure of speech. Personification of Authority. In the context of the superior entity with special skills and possession of superior, precision measuring tools. Nobody in particular. Why do you feel so strongly about my use of “Majesty” in this context?

 

[thyname]

8 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

This isn't intended to be a dig but why do you start many of your posts with a single quote mark?

 

For some reason, whenever I start typing in my iPad, the auto-correct inserts that quote mark upfront. Only in my iPad. Too laze at times to go back and delete it, and it's annoying, as it does it again, even after I delete it, so I have to try a few times. I just gave up dealing with it. Hopefully this satisfies your curiosity

[kumakuma]

1 minute ago, thyname said:

 

For some reason, whenever I start typing in my iPad, the auto-correct inserts that quote mark upfront. Only in my iPad. Too laze at times to go back and delete it, and it's annoying, as it does it again, even after I delete it, so I have to try a few times. I just gave up dealing with it. Hopefully this satisfies your curiosity

 

Thanks! The mystery has been solved.

 

I wonder if turning off Auto-Correction and/or Smart Punctuation in Settings->General->Keyboard would help.