mansr Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, thyname said: ‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count What is the minimum price that counts? Ralf11 1 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, thyname said: ‘You will be surprised. And Alexa speakers or your car stereo does not count Ha, I thought you were jesting. Another irony - suddenly some subjectivists are demanding some proof of the pudding. hopefully your not going to start asking for plausible explanations of the "sound" of Ethernet or some such cause we ain't got none... Ralf11 and wgscott 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, mansr said: What is the minimum price that counts? who said anything about price? Link to comment
Popular Post mansr Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, thyname said: who said anything about price? Well, what criteria decide what counts? Percentage silver in cables? Number of "quantum" in names of components? What? Teresa and wgscott 2 Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, mansr said: Well, what criteria decide what counts? Percentage silver in cables? Number of "quantum" in names of components? What? ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right? Teresa and wgscott 1 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, thyname said: ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right? I would describe my system this way: Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, crenca said: I would describe the my system this way: ‘I thought so. You proved my point. Are you and The Troll the same person? I thought I was replying to them Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, thyname said: ‘Only to those I mentioned. Not to all objectivists. My post was especially targeted to those who don’t even own an audio system, or don’t even listen to music. The above is what you said, not the revisionist post later. I would like to know if there is such a person on here. Or Not. Teresa 1 Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Ralf11 said: The above is what you said, not the revisionist post later. I would like to know if there is such a person on here. Or Not. As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right? Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 Just now, thyname said: As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right? I was jesting with you. If your sincerely interested: I am currently an all HP guy, though in my office I do have KEF Q350's powered by a Parasound amp that I tell my wife are "computer speakers", but the room nodes of my office make them too gimped for any critical listening. My main HP system currently (changes as I buy and sell) is iFi IDAC2/Airist R2R/Schiit Gungnir MB "A2 {second revision}" >>> Schiit Saga >>> Schiit Jot/Eddie Current BW2 >>> ZMF Eikon/ZMF Verite/Focal Clear/Focal Elegia/Hifiman XX (these suck)/Sennheiser HD650 All fed by Roon (mostly), sometimes HQPlayer and/or JRiver with various VST DSP plugins. For magic pixie dust on my PC source, I stick with just Lasso and various solutions from Synergistic Research... tapatrick, Teresa and thyname 2 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 30 minutes ago, thyname said: ‘As I said: owning any audio system. Show me what you got. Very eager to learn, and share experiences. That’s what this hobby is all about, right? See my thread new workstation sound. PS be careful of your response. Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 Just now, crenca said: I was jesting with you. If your sincerely interested: I am currently an all HP guy, though in my office I do have KEF Q350's powered by a Parasound amp that I tell my wife are "computer speakers", but the room nodes of my office make them too gimped for any critical listening. My main HP system currently (changes as I buy and sell) is iFi IDAC2/Airist R2R/Schiit Gungnir MB "A2 {second revision}" >>> Schiit Saga >>> Schiit Jot/Eddie Current BW2 >>> ZMF Eikon/ZMF Verite/Focal Clear/Focal Elegia/Hifiman XX (these suck)/Sennheiser HD650 All fed by Roon (mostly), sometimes HQPlayer and/or JRiver with various VST DSP plugins. For magic pixie dust on my PC source, I stick with just Lasso and various solutions from Synergistic Research... Thanks for sharing. Now we are talking. I used to be big on Headphones. Not anymore. From your current gear you have, I used to own the Airist headphones amp and ZMF Eikon. Lots of other HP stuff I used to own, including Senn HD800, Focal Utopia, Headamp GS-X MK2, Holo Spring KTE, Schiit Mjolnir, and more. Big Roon fan, and lifetime sub on year three. For what’s worth I am a fan of R2R DAC technology too. Nothing scientific, purely subjective, the type of sound I like. My kids grew up, so I am back into speakers. Does not mean I will never go back into HP. Cheers! Link to comment
crenca Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 7 minutes ago, thyname said: Thanks for sharing. Now we are talking. I used to be big on Headphones. Not anymore. From your current gear you have, I used to own the Airist headphones amp and ZMF Eikon. Lots of other HP stuff I used to own, including Senn HD800, Focal Utopia, Headamp GS-X MK2, Holo Spring KTE, Schiit Mjolnir, and more. Big Roon fan, and lifetime sub on year three. For what’s worth I am a fan of R2R DAC technology too. Nothing scientific, purely subjective, the type of sound I like. My kids grew up, so I am back into speakers. Does not mean I will never go back into HP. Cheers! Yep, I want to own the Utopia, but the delta between it and the Clear is not enough to justify the price, though street prices this year fell quite a bit so... As much as I like the Eikon's tonality/timbre, the speed/detail is lacking, but the Verite (Closed in my case) brings Focal speed/detail to that warm ZMF house sound, which itself is polarizing. With kids, I am chasing the closed back dragon. "Face tweeters" like the HD800 bother me, though I get why folks who mostly listen to classical are drawn to this sound. Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, crenca said: Yep, I want to own the Utopia, but the delta between it and the Clear is not enough to justify the price, though street prices this year fell quite a bit so... As much as I like the Eikon's tonality/timbre, the speed/detail is lacking, but the Verite (Closed in my case) brings Focal speed/detail to that warm ZMF house sound, which itself is polarizing. With kids, I am chasing the closed back dragon. "Face tweeters" like the HD800 bother me, though I get why folks who mostly listen to classical are drawn to this sound. ‘My HD800 were SDR modified (superDupont Resonator). They were my go-to headphones until I got Utopia. Street price on Utopia is way lower than MSRP. I remember I paid something like $2,500 or $2,600 all in a few years ago, brand new. A local guy I know is friendly with Zach at ZMF, so I was familiar with his cans. Good stuff for sure Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, thyname said: . Good stuff for sure Class D amps would be far more compelling. Alex Peychev, Rt66indierock, Ralf11 and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment
Popular Post kennyb123 Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 At this point is it fair to say that the original article failed to bring about a change in behavior? Haven’t we seem enough evidence that suggests these individuals feel their behavior is justified? I’m not trying to stir up the dust with these questions as I think we’ve done enough talking about the problem. I’m just thinking it be time to shift the discussion to possible solutions. The ideal solution would have been for certain individuals to agree to moderate their own behavior. But as they are either unwilling or unable to do this, might there be a solution that doesn’t have to burden others with the task of moderation? Or do we do nothing and just allow things to continue as is? I have several friends who could make wonderful contributions here that would help us all better enjoy listening to the music we love, but they either avoid posting here or do it sparingly because they have the exact same complaints that were raised in the article. As such I hope we can find an agreeable solution. The Computer Audiophile, Teresa and 4est 3 Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 hours ago, Ralf11 said: who here doesn’t even own an audio system, or doesn’t even listen to music ??? Don’t ask this question in a hipster vinyl forum. Most vinyl purchasers don’t own a turn table. 18 minutes ago, kennyb123 said: At this point is it fair to say that the original article failed to bring about a change in behavior? Haven’t we seem enough evidence that suggests these individuals feel their behavior is justified? I’m not trying to stir up the dust with these questions as I think we’ve done enough talking about the problem. I’m just thinking it be time to shift the discussion to possible solutions. The ideal solution would have been for certain individuals to agree to moderate their own behavior. But as they are either unwilling or unable to do this, might there be a solution that doesn’t have to burden others with the task of moderation? Or do we do nothing and just allow things to continue as is? I have several friends who could make wonderful contributions here that would help us all better enjoy listening to the music we love, but they either avoid posting here or do it sparingly because they have the exact same complaints that were raised in the article. As such I hope we can find an agreeable solution. I’m working on solutions to improve things for everyone, but perhaps a different “solutions” thread should be started, where people can offer only solutions. tapatrick, kennyb123 and Teresa 1 1 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 6 hours ago, thyname said: I have no issue with the "objectivists" posting about audio, as long as it is based on their own, actual experience, of owning and using (or measuring) the gear under review. I'm sorry, but that's never, ever going to happen here. The reason is that the entire point of objectivism is that individual experience owning and listening to gear is not, by itself, a reliable measure or indicator of anything except, well, that individual's experience. Experience is valuable and essential, but it is limited when it comes to communicating sonic characteristics and performance facts that are likely to be repeatable by others. As for limiting posts about measurements to gear that the individual has measured themselves, that is equally nonsensical in the context of what objectivism is about: repeatability of measurement is what makes measurement meaningful. Who does the measurement is irrelevant - and by definition one's own measurements are not more important or valid than anyone else's. Since not everyone has the time, money, and expertise necessary to own and properly operate good-quality testing equipment, we necessarily rely on those who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data. In sum, your comment here effectively says that objectivist commentary is fine with you - as long as it's limited in such a way as to turn it into subjectivist commentary. There's nothing open-minded about that, and this position of yours appears to be just as close-minded as you claim objectivists are. wgscott, Ralf11, crenca and 5 others 7 1 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 31 minutes ago, kennyb123 said: At this point is it fair to say that the original article failed to bring about a change in behavior? Haven’t we seem enough evidence that suggests these individuals feel their behavior is justified?...The ideal solution would have been for certain individuals to agree to moderate their own behavior ... But but but, you don't have an "individual behavior", you have a culture problem. Does a Democrat "feel justified" in voting Democratic, and does an Republican "feel justified" in voting Republican? Yes. I also have friends who would post here, but the insanity of "the big crazy" subjectivism...well, they are sane, unlike myself 😉 tapatrick, Ralf11 and askat1988 2 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 1 minute ago, tmtomh said: I'm sorry, but that's never, ever going to happen here. The reason is that the entire point of objectivism is that individual experience owning and listening to gear is not, by itself, a reliable measure or indicator of anything except, well, that individual's experience. Experience is valuable and essential, but it is limited when it comes to communicating sonic characteristics and performance facts that are likely to be repeatable by others. As for limiting posts about measurements to gear that the individual has measured themselves, that is equally nonsensical in the context of what objectivism is about: repeatability of measurement is what makes measurement meaningful. Who does the measurement is irrelevant - and by definition one's own measurements are not more important or valid than anyone else's. Since not everyone has the time, money, and expertise necessary to own and properly operate good-quality testing equipment, we necessarily rely on those who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data. In sum, what your comment here does is say that objectivist commentary is fine with you - as long as it's limited in such a way as to turn it into subjectivist commentary. There's nothing open-minded about that. So if that's your position, then I would suggest you kindly take a seat in this discussion. I am so sorry, but your reply to me does not make sense. Are you stating that current owners of a piece of equipment don’t need to share their experience with what they own simply because their experience with said gear may not be repeatable by others? Further, are you saying the only opinion that counts is that of His Majesty, “who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data”? With outmost respects, this is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. Utterly nonsense Link to comment
Ralf11 Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, kennyb123 said: At this point is it fair to say that the original article failed to bring about a change in behavior? Haven’t we seem enough evidence that suggests these individuals feel their behavior is justified? I’m not trying to stir up the dust with these questions as I think we’ve done enough talking about the problem. I’m just thinking it be time to shift the discussion to possible solutions. The ideal solution would have been for certain individuals to agree to moderate their own behavior. But as they are either unwilling or unable to do this, might there be a solution that doesn’t have to burden others with the task of moderation? Or do we do nothing and just allow things to continue as is? I have several friends who could make wonderful contributions here that would help us all better enjoy listening to the music we love, but they either avoid posting here or do it sparingly because they have the exact same complaints that were raised in the article. As such I hope we can find an agreeable solution. I agree that "certain individuals should moderate their own behavior." For example, if someone disagrees with some claim about cables, you should pay attention and not Rage On like a snowflake in Hades. wgscott 1 Link to comment
Popular Post The Computer Audiophile Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 9 minutes ago, thyname said: I am so sorry, but your reply to me does not make sense. Are you stating that current owners of a piece of equipment don’t need to share their experience with what they own simply because their experience with said gear may not be repeatable by others? Further, are you saying the only opinion that counts is that of His Majesty, “who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data”? With outmost respects, this is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. Utterly nonsense I think you may have misunderstood what @tmtomh’s point was. Hopefully he can follow up. tmtomh, mansr and wgscott 2 1 Founder of Audiophile Style | My Audio Systems Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said: I think you may have misunderstood what @tmtomh’s point was. Hopefully he can follow up. ‘I surely hope you are right, although I doubt it. What is your understanding of what he said? Link to comment
Popular Post tmtomh Posted December 13, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 13, 2019 22 minutes ago, thyname said: I am so sorry, but your reply to me does not make sense. Are you stating that current owners of a piece of equipment don’t need to share their experience with what they own simply because their experience with said gear may not be repeatable by others? Further, are you saying the only opinion that counts is that of His Majesty, “who do own and know how to operate that equipment to supply the testing data”? With outmost respects, this is by far the most ridiculous statement I have ever read. Utterly nonsense Owners of a piece of equipment don't need to share their experiences - but they certainly can do so, and I would hope that they would feel free to do so. I often enjoy reading about others' experiences, and occasionally I enjoy sharing my own. As I wrote above, experience is valuable and essential. But experience should never be conflated with factual or causal claims. If I say I hear tighter bass when using USB cable X compared with USB cable Y, it is indeed a fact that I heard that (or at least that I perceived that). But it is not a fact that USB cable X actually produces tighter bass than USB cable Y unless one proposes a possible reason why that might be so, and unless that reason is subjected to at least some basic rational and if possible experimental scrutiny. As to whose opinion counts, I am not saying that those who own and operate testing equipment are the only people whose opinions count. Rather, I am saying that it does not make sense to claim - as you did - that people should only post comments here about measurements if they made those measurements themselves. In other words, you have argued that posting about measurements here is only acceptable if it's a post about someone's experience doing the measurement themselves. My argument in my prior post, which I repeat here, is that this is nonsense because the entire meaning and value of a measurement is not about one's personal experience doing it.* * (Yes of course, someone's measurement "experience" counts in the sense that it's always important to ensure sound methodology. But that's not what thyname was talking about.) The Computer Audiophile, crenca, askat1988 and 5 others 3 1 4 Link to comment
thyname Posted December 13, 2019 Share Posted December 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, tmtomh said: Owners of a piece of equipment don't need to share their experiences - but they certainly can do so Then what would be the point in discussing with other people in a hobby forum like this? This is definitely not a need, like nutrition, or thirst. It’s a hobby. We are here to discuss with each other about the hobby. This is not a life or death situation. 5 minutes ago, tmtomh said: Rather, I am saying that it does not make sense to claim - as you did - that people should only post comments here about measurements if they made those measurements themselves. ‘You really took my measurement comment in the most serious context. All I was saying is that the opinion of an objectivist, or of anyone for that matter, is totally acceptable by me if that person has actual personal experience with something. Not simply because he read some measurements that His Majesty posted in the Internets. Does it make sense? Or are you really implying that if someone who has those special instruments, and measures this stuff, is the absolute authority in all audio, and 100% of the population should buy what he determined to have the most superior measurements? 11 minutes ago, tmtomh said: as for the fact that you find my prior post ridiculous, if I were you I wouldn't be so sure that's a commentary on the content of my post. ‘Sorry, I don’t get it. My comprehension skills are lacking with this one Link to comment
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