Objectivists/Subjectivists

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

19 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

But he didn’t say that you shouldn’t walk and buy it, now did he?

 

Again, any color commentary from Amir is just that. His opinion. Maybe worth just a bit more than dime a dozen. His measurements are invaluable, OTOH.

 

Yep. like I said before the evidence is there for anyone to interpret. But now we have a subjective debate based on physical fact.

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, jabbr said:

You've kinda sorta indicated you have commercial interests in a DAC. You should identify your specific commercial ties in your sig.

So if someone asks you what DAC you used in listening tests, it's against the rules to answer? Wow that's news to me. I thought this forum was here to discuss audio equipment? Why don't I see a list of DAC's people have heard, and are interested in all of peoples signatures? 

[Ralf11]

Well, we have a subjective debate based on opinion, with said opinion based on physical facts from measurements.

 

One goes in the results section, and the other might make it into the Discussion.

[RickyV]

Pkane2001, i do not know about this,

41 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

His measurements, on the other hand, are not an opinion. 

Measuring by its self doesn’t make it “science” you have to know what your doing. So it depends on Amir if he is measuring correctly. Not saying he isn’t.

 

 

 

[Ralf11]

3 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

So if someone asks you what DAC you used in listening tests, it's against the rules to answer? Wow that's news to me. I thought this forum was here to discuss audio equipment? Why don't I see a list of DAC's people have heard, and are interested in all of peoples signatures? 

 

Failure to disclose a commercial interest is a big no-no.  As it should be.

 

Your post above dodges the issue.

 

You need to discuss that with Chris.  you've made some worthwhile comments, so I hope you will do so.

[Music Enthusiast]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Failure to disclose a commercial interest is a big no-no.  As it should be.

 

Your post above dodges the issue.

 

You need to discuss that with Chris.  you've made some worthwhile comments, so I hope you will do so.

If mentioning a DAC I've heard is a commercial interest, then Chris can go fuck himself. I'm out of this shit hole. 

[Samuel T Cogley]

29 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Anyways before this IP address gets banned as well, I'll just say that all Amir's measurement data accomplishes is misleads people into thinking that the better the numbers are, the more they will enjoy the products. When in reality this is not the case. In home audition with your system and your ears is the only way you will know. Subjective reviews in large numbers hold much more weight. As anyone with a brain can study all of the reviews and see if the data correlates between all of the reviews. If several people are all saying the same things, then there's a good chance you will have the same findings in your system. With the objectivist's, the impressions all stop with the numbers. Nobody even has any idea if they're enjoying their gear, because they would never admit they don't like something that measures good. They just quietly sell and replace.

 

With due respect, you seem to be suggesting your company's DAC(s) won't measure very well 🙂

 

EDIT: The post I'm replying to is one of the best examples of the "trust your ears, ignore the engineers" propaganda that I've seen in a very long time.  It's very similar to Audioquest's "blind tests are bad" shtick.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

25 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

If mentioning a DAC I've heard is a commercial interest, then Chris can go fuck himself. I'm out of this shit hole. 

 

Which previously banned person was Music Enthusiast

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, Allan F said:

 

Groan....You really should be ashamed of yourself!

 

Not sorry....

 

[Dutch]

51 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Which previously banned person was Music Enthusiast

 

I’m guessing Blizzard, Mike, mivera or whatever nick he’s used on the dozen or so forums he’s been banned from. 😐

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, RickyV said:

Pkane2001, i do not know about this,

Measuring by its self doesn’t make it “science” you have to know what your doing. So it depends on Amir if he is measuring correctly. Not saying he isn’t.

 

I didn't say measuring is science, did I? I just said it's objective. As in, it can be questioned, it can be reproduced by others, it can be tested, validated. A subjective opinion, such as 'not even a subtle improvement' or 'many veils lifted' or 'better microdynamics' or 'wider soundstage', or... are all in the category of being impossible to verify, but more so, for me, impossible to understand in the context of my own music, my own listening, in my own system.

 

Does Amir make mistakes with his measurements? Sure he does. But he produces a lot of verifiable data, and much of it has been verified by others, including those who dislike him or disagree with him. When a real mistake is reported, he fixes it. Try to convince a subjective audiophile that the soundstage is not as wide as they think it is  This is why objective is ... objectively better

 

[Jud]

1 hour ago, Music Enthusiast said:

I'm out of this shit hole.

 

The "hole" you were so desperate to get back into, you used deception to do it.  Really sucks when thousands of people know you're a liar, and not a very good one.

[Jud]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

I didn't say measuring is science, did I? I just said it's objective. As in, it can be questioned, it can be reproduced by others, it can be tested, validated. A subjective opinion, such as 'not even a subtle improvement' or 'many veils lifted' or 'better microdynamics' or 'wider soundstage', or... are all in the category of being impossible to verify, but more so, for me, impossible to also understand in the context of my own music, my own listening, in my own system.

 

Does Amir make mistakes with his measurements? Sure he does. But he produces a lot of verifiable data, and much of it has been verified by others, including those who dislike him or disagree with him. When a real mistake is reported, he fixes it. Try to convince a subjective audiophile that the soundstage is not as wide as they think it is  This is why objective is ... objectively better

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree with most of this.  Just piping up to say that subjective reports are often helpful to me if they come from someone whose tastes have seemed to jibe with mine in the past.

[sandyk]

2 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Try to convince a subjective audiophile that the soundstage is not as wide as they think it is  This is why objective is ... objectively better

 

 

So now you can measure not only the width of the soundstage, the depth of the soundstage, both behind the speakers AND the listening position , as well as the HEIGHT of the soundstage where this element is present, such as in a well recorded  Thunder Storm ? 

[jabbr]

1 hour ago, Music Enthusiast said:

If mentioning a DAC I've heard is a commercial interest, then Chris can go fuck himself. I'm out of this shit hole. 

 

Wow! That was unprovoked. Chris had no part in what I said.

 

You didn't claim merely to have listened to DAC, rather done so along with a team of engineers and there was some teaching and learning going on. Unless its a DAC engineering club, then it sounds like it might be a commercial enterprise. At the very least its not an unreasonable question on my part. Why not simply answer? No big deal, or it shouldn't be.

 

[pkane2001]

1 minute ago, sandyk said:

 

So now you can measure not only the width of the soundstage, the depth of the soundstage, both behind the speakers AND the listening position , as well as the HEIGHT of the soundstage where this element is present, such as in a well recorded  Thunder Storm ? 

 

No. But if I tell you that my soundstage is bigger than yours, can you prove me wrong?  Can you even argue with this subjective opinion? No, because you have no idea what I'm hearing, except for the vague words of description that can mean very different things to different people. And when I tell you that it just got even bigger when I replaced my power cord, would you run out and buy the same power cord?

[sandyk]

8 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

And when I tell you that it just got even bigger when I replaced my power cord, would you run out and buy the same power cord?

 

 No. I would expect that an already correctly dimensioned power cord would sound the same as your power cord with my well regulated dual mono type construction Class A amplifier.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

33 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

Try to convince a subjective audiophile that the soundstage is not as wide as they think it is

 

That's not totally correct. I listened to what was on the far left and marked the spot. I listened to what was on the far right and marked the spot. I measured the distance between the two spots. It was a reproducible measurement. 😛

[Music Enthusiast]

Wow you guys are sure jumping to conclusions. I mention that I’ve heard 1 DAC and all the sudden I own the company! 

 

The company I was talking about who did the DAC tests was not Mivera Audio, and I was not involved either. 

 

My comment was because my IP was banned because the objectivists who were losing the debate must have reported me. So if he’s going to ban my IP based on fabricated BS then I stand behind what I said. 

[pkane2001]

23 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

That's not totally correct. I listened to what was on the far left and marked the spot. I listened to what was on the far right and marked the spot. I measured the distance between the two spots. It was a reproducible measurement. 😛

 

And did you count the number of veils lifted?

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

 

4 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

 So if he’s going to ban my IP based on fabricated BS then I stand behind what I said. 

 possibly this will help him decide

2 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

 Chris can go fuck himself. I'm out of this shit hole.  

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

Chris has banned my home IP address. Signed in with my phone. Guess I’m making far too much sense to be a part of this forum. 

False. I’m taking measures to counter a ton of anonymous VPN traffic that causes several issues for us behind the scenes. Unless you house is in the LogicWeb data center and you work for the Panamanian company VPN Consumer Network Services, you’re lying about me banning your home IP address. 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

1 minute ago, pkane2001 said:

 

And did you count the number of veils lifted?

 

My system is transparent, no veils to count 😉

I can come over and measure your soundstage if you like. I just had my tape measure calibrated 🤔

[The Computer Audiophile]

@Music Enthusiast Please reveal your industry affiliation. 

 

You haven’t covered your tracks as well as you think. 

[STC]

32 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

That's not totally correct. I listened to what was on the far left and marked the spot. I listened to what was on the far right and marked the spot. I measured the distance between the two spots. It was a reproducible measurement

 

IME, It is not consistant. Sometimes, I could hear a wide stage and sometimes not so. The more I listen the stage appears smaller.