Objectivists/Subjectivists

[pkane2001]

10 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

My system is transparent, no veils to count 😉

I can come over and measure your soundstage if you like. I just had my tape measure calibrated 🤔

 

No need, mine is bigger

 

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

5 minutes ago, STC said:

 

IME, It is not consistant. Sometimes, I could hear a wide stage and sometimes not so. The more I listen the stage appears smaller.  

 

There's a trick to it ST. When the music is playing the soundstage obviously varies, the sax is there and then gone, there, gone. You have to pause the music and then measure when everything is nice and still 🤣

[STC]

3 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

You have to pause the music....

 

My bad...will pause and measure or maybe play them at lower speed while measuring.  

[Don Hills]

21 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

I can come over and measure your soundstage if you like. I just had my tape measure calibrated 🤔

 

Can I interest you in some Calibrated Acoustic String (tm)?

http://www.mcsquared.com/string.htm

[Superdad]

46 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

@Music Enthusiast Please reveal your industry affiliation. 

 

You haven’t covered your tracks as well as you think. 

 

How about putting us out of our misery and revealing his industry affiliation for us?  I asked hime for such pages ago and received a weird passive-agreesive PM from him--with still nothing...

[Music Enthusiast]

3 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

How about putting us out of our misery and revealing his industry affiliation for us?  I asked hime for such pages ago and received a weird passive-agreesive PM from him--with still nothing...

You have never asked me anything. And I have never used the PM system on this forum. If so share a screenshot and prove it. I give you my permission. 

[Superdad]

5 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

You have never asked me anything. And I have never used the PM system on this forum. If so share a screenshot and prove it. I give you my permission. 

 

Oops, I owe you an apology.  It was another member, Rt66indierock.  Guess your writing reminded me of his (or vice versa). 

[PeterSt]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

Guess your writing reminded me of his (or vice versa). 

 

Now that's a good one ...

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

There's a trick to it ST. When the music is playing the soundstage obviously varies, the sax is there and then gone, there, gone. You have to pause the music and then measure when everything is nice and still 🤣

 

If you used a laser distance measurer, would that work fast enough so that a pause would not be necessary?

[esldude]

https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

 

You can try these test tracks.  They are made to determine lateral and vertical sound capability of your system based upon what you hear.  I've found them to be very consistent (yes with a ruler if you like) in to where I hear something in a given system and a specified listening position.  There is some variance between listeners though not a huge amount.  If repositioning the speakers for instance several listeners report the same kind of change in these test results even if their exact positioning of what they hear doesn't quite agree.   The depth portion seems the one where several listeners will sometimes disagree by rather large amounts of where things are. 

 

In one extreme instance I marked out a grid with a sheet on a wall with marking lines every 6 inches, and let people say what grids something covered.  

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

24 minutes ago, esldude said:

https://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php

 

You can try these test tracks.  They are made to determine lateral and vertical sound capability of your system based upon what you hear.  I've found them to be very consistent (yes with a ruler if you like) in to where I hear something in a given system and a specified listening position.  There is some variance between listeners though not a huge amount.  If repositioning the speakers for instance several listeners report the same kind of change in these test results even if their exact positioning of what they hear doesn't quite agree.   The depth portion seems the one where several listeners will sometimes disagree by rather large amounts of where things are. 

 

In one extreme instance I marked out a grid with a sheet on a wall with marking lines every 6 inches, and let people say what grids something covered.  

 

Yes the take me to your LEDR tests. The trouble is mansr told me I can't hear height in a recording - dang it if he's not right coz every time I pause the music to measure height it disappears ! It was just an illusion 😦

[esldude]

48 minutes ago, Audiophile Neuroscience said:

 

Yes the take me to your LEDR tests. The trouble is mansr told me I can't hear height in a recording - dang it if he's not right coz every time I pause the music to measure height it disappears ! It was just an illusion 😦

I think your brain has used it's little legs to run away from itself a little. 🙄

[vmartell22]

7 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

If mentioning a DAC I've heard is a commercial interest, then Chris can go fuck himself. I'm out of this shit hole. 

 

 

Post is a bit old, but has to be said... DUDE, chill. 

 

v

[RickyV]

Indeed the width and depth of sound stage are imo subjective terms. Difficult to measure accurately, not verifiable between systems also depending room acoustics and ears. 

What is interesting is that if the accuracy of DAC increases and the noise levels drop to absurd low levels especially the depth of field seem to increase.

Rob watts talks about that in this clip: https://youtu.be/AAPgbTqJq9s

 

Its a bit long but very interesting.

 

What I also noticed in this clip how often he talks about changing something in the s.w or measure and then go and listen to the change. Especially the increasing depth was a surprise to him.

So engineering and accurate listening go hand in hand, one can't do without the other if want a high level product.

 

 

[RickyV]

10 hours ago, pkane2001 said:

Does Amir make mistakes with his measurements? Sure he does. But he produces a lot of verifiable data, and much of it has been verified by others, including those who dislike him or disagree with him. When a real mistake is reported, he fixes it.

I didn't know his data gets verified by others, that is important. 

 

The only thing I would like to add to measuring correctly is that the meaning probe can influence the signal you want to measure. You have to take that into account as well with ultra low levels of noise.

Probe impedance. But if his measurements gets verified it's ok I guess.

[PeterSt]

3 hours ago, RickyV said:

But if his measurements gets verified it's ok I guess.

 

Haha. But I don't think anyone meant to say exactly that. Instead (IMO):

When gear like from Audio Precision is used, that inherently verifies the measurement because the device can do it.

 

Anyway, I won't agree with any of his measurements because most make no sense at all. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that he shows an FFT of a USB signal (not so in this particular case - that's normal DAC output).

He has nice toys (and the money for it) which doesn't mean he can use them properly. JA may have a say in this, but I feel it is not a good idea to openly ask.

[esldude]

26 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Haha. But I don't think anyone meant to say exactly that. Instead (IMO):

When gear like from Audio Precision is used, that inherently verifies the measurement because the device can do it.

 

Anyway, I won't agree with any of his measurements because most make no sense at all. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that he shows an FFT of a USB signal (not so in this particular case - that's normal DAC output).

He has nice toys (and the money for it) which doesn't mean he can use them properly. JA may have a say in this, but I feel it is not a good idea to openly ask.

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

 

Peter's post is a crock.  Amir has an EE at least. I don't know what say JA has. JA was a liberal arts major.

 

[esldude]

Just now, esldude said:

 

Duplicate

[RickyV]

27 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Haha. But I don't think anyone meant to say exactly that. Instead (IMO):

When gear like from Audio Precision is used, that inherently verifies the measurement because the device can do it.

 

Anyway, I won't agree with any of his measurements because most make no sense at all. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that he shows an FFT of a USB signal (not so in this particular case - that's normal DAC output).

He has nice toys (and the money for it) which doesn't mean he can use them properly. JA may have a say in this, but I feel it is not a good idea to openly ask.

I do not know about the audio precision analyzer, I only played with oscilloscope's and multimeters in my time.

I do not go to the ASR site because I have my doubts. 

[PeterSt]

7 minutes ago, esldude said:

Peter's post is a crock.

 

Of course it was. Plus that it is my subjective opinion. For me, there are just too many examples of odd things he measures and I'd say in all cases biases towards some opinion (this is hardly subjective although we could disagree over that easily) and in the end it feels like he abuses some position or something.

 

If important at all, there's no way I judge the man's skills. But I do kind of object the way he exploits it all.

 

And after all, he is still the person with one of the biggest "fights" ever, which happened during the period that he proposed (or advertised or whatever) WASAPI to the public for all the wrong reasons in the world.

I am sure he can drink my blood for it.

Anyway what came from this was Phasure being the very first with WASAPI support which lasted a year or two of being alone with it. And no wonder, because the product was like a drag. At least at first. For net result, the harder he shouted it was a good thing and the more I thought it was not at all, the more I was sure I was going to have a go with it. So I can thank Amir for that just the same - I could make a first bit perfect product with it (which was a hot issue back in those days).

I tend to combine all with his examples from back then from some poor A/V processor he used at home. It was *the* showcase of someone provoking "audiophilia" while all testified he was not at all in that league (but tried to get WASAPI going). To me he looked "fake" (or faking because of the job at MS he had to accomplish (and which was his last AFIAK).

 

It extends to us having issues with Windows 8 and "phasing" oddness. So I directed Mani to WBF to ask the question there, directly to Amir. He didn't even respond. Maybe he tried to ban MS from his mind.

 

That's all. No big deal. Mostly personal stuff.

[Jud]

37 minutes ago, esldude said:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

 

Peter's post is a crock.  Amir has an EE at least. I don't know what say JA has. JA was a liberal arts major.

 

 

I note Amir says he worked in the early or mid 1980s on the "then new" Unix operating system...

[plissken]

13 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

How about putting us out of our misery and revealing his industry affiliation for us?  I asked hime for such pages ago and received a weird passive-agreesive PM from him--with still nothing...

 

Sounds like Michael Lavorgna at this point.

[esldude]

14 minutes ago, PeterSt said:

 

Of course it was. Plus that it is my subjective opinion. For me, there are just too many examples of odd things he measures and I'd say in all cases biases towards some opinion (this is hardly subjective although we could disagree over that easily) and in the end it feels like he abuses some position or something.

 

If important at all, there's no way I judge the man's skills. But I do kind of object the way he exploits it all.

 

And after all, he is still the person with one of the biggest "fights" ever, which happened during the period that he proposed (or advertised or whatever) WASAPI to the public for all the wrong reasons in the world.

I am sure he can drink my blood for it.

Anyway what came from this was Phasure being the very first with WASAPI support which lasted a year or two of being alone with it. And no wonder, because the product was like a drag. At least at first. For net result, the harder he shouted it was a good thing and the more I thought it was not at all, the more I was sure I was going to have a go with it. So I can thank Amir for that just the same - I could make a first bit perfect product with it (which was a hot issue back in those days).

I tend to combine all with his examples from back then from some poor A/V processor he used at home. It was *the* showcase of someone provoking "audiophilia" while all testified he was not at all in that league (but tried to get WASAPI going). To me he looked "fake" (or faking because of the job at MS he had to accomplish (and which was his last AFIAK).

 

It extends to us having issues with Windows 8 and "phasing" oddness. So I directed Mani to WBF to ask the question there, directly to Amir. He didn't even respond. Maybe he tried to ban MS from his mind.

 

That's all. No big deal. Mostly personal stuff.

Lots of personal feelings in your post.

[esldude]

14 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

I note Amir says he worked in the early or mid 1980s on the "then new" Unix operating system...

Well it certainly had lost that new car smell by the 80s. 😉

[pkane2001]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

Anyway, I won't agree with any of his measurements because most make no sense at all. I mean, it wouldn't be the first time that he shows an FFT of a USB signal (not so in this particular case - that's normal DAC output).

 

Where did he do an FFT of a USB signal? As an example, here's what he measured in the last review, and pretty much the same for all the recent ones. For a Chord DAC:

• FFT of 1KHz signal on analog output at 2v to show harmonic distortion
• THD+N / SINAD
• IMD
• Dynamic Range
• Jitter
• Linearity
• THD+N vs Frequency
• Multi-tone distortion test
• Square wave performance
• Filter response at various sampling rates

Any of these you particularly object to?