Popular Post 89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 This topic seems to becoming more and more of an issue on CA. I'd like to use this post as an opportunity to try an clarify my "problems" with the objectivist camp specifically, since I'm apparently a subjectivist. Broadly speaking, for me, a subjectivist leans more to being interested in other's listening impressions, and personal experiences with whatever is being discussed. Objectivists lean more towards being interested in actual measurements and a scientific explanation of what's behind these subjectivist reports. Within each group there's various degrees of overlap. For example, in my case, although I may be considered a subjectivist, I'm interested in seeing measurements, if available. I'm also very interested in learning the hows and whys behind what myself and others are reporting. I'm also sure that many objectivists are interested in the impressions reported by subjectivists. Many sites and reviews are clearly a combination of objectivist and subjectivist perspective. We've all read reviews with varying degrees of listening impressions and measurements and I'm sure most have a preference for more or less of each. Just as there can be a lot of overlap within the two camps, there also appears to be the opposite case, less and less overlap until those in each camp become almost opposed and unwilling to listen to the other camp (kind of like the way the world in general seems to be going ?). This to me is where the problems begin, although at the risk of offending, I believe it's more of an issue with the hard core objectivists then the hard core subjectivists. From my viewpoint, the objectivists, at least in the context of this site, have nothing to post about without the reporting of experiences by the subjectivists. How many popular, long running threads have we seen based solely on so-called objectivist criteria? Not many, if any I would say. And if there are, I would suspect that very few so-called subjectivists are active participants. On the other hand, there's many, many threads started by people posting their listening impressions. It's these threads that perceived problems arise from. Depending on the topic or context, more or less of the objectivist camp becomes involved. In the worst cases, the objectivists actually "take over" the thread with their requests for measurements, tests, explanations to back up the reported listening impression. It's like the objectivists need the subjectivists to react to, without that, the objectivists are pretty much impotent. Depending on those involved from both camps and the topic and context, many of these threads don't end well, with likely the OP and other early participants long gone. I myself get drawn into some of these threads and always end up regretting it. This post could drag on even more (I know, hard to believe) but to come to a point, for me, as a subjectivist and an alleged adult, I resent being told what I can or cannot hear. It would be one thing if those saying it can't be, generally the more hard core of the objectivist camp, had actually had some kind of personal experience with the product under discussion, but that rarely, if ever, is the case. Their posts are generally based on work experience, prior education, books, YouTube, that have convinced them that what's being reported by the subjectivist is either imaginary or impossible. Many times the fall back is that the science or physics or whatever else is so well known that it would be impossible. To me, this attitude is verging on ludicrous, especially for topics related to computer audio, digital audio, etc. As a layman, it appears this field is changing incredibly rapidly. Hardly what would be expected if everything was already known. I'm sure some objectivists are already thinking "exactly, that's why there's so much snake oil". I'm sure that's true to a large extent. But isn't that in itself a sign of an subject with a lot of unknowns? This to me is probably my biggest issue, the apparent close mindedness from the more scientific/educated side of the hard core objectivists. It strikes me as almost arrogant that anyone would think that they know everything that could ever be known about a topic, especially topics being discussed on this site. Where's the scientific interest to explore for themselves and actually try some of these products for themselves? Then they would be in a position to apply their specific expertise to either prove the subjectivists reporting wrong or at least continue with more investigation. The main point being that they would be in a far more relevant position to post about what may or may not be behind the subjectivist experience. I'm not aware of a lot of scientific breakthroughs that were made sitting at a keyboard arguing in a forum. Again for me, without that personal experience, those objectivist posts have very little relevance, especially after years of reading the same types of things being posted by the same people over and over in multiple threads. Honestly, we've all read it so many times, you can save the effort and not even bother posting. We already know what you're going to say. I'm going to finish with this to give any left reading what they're up against. When I was 6 or 7 years old in school, my teacher told us not to touch cold metal with your tongue or your tongue would freeze to the metal. Recess came and the first thing I did was run over to the closest metal pole and lick it. Guess what? My tongue stuck to it, had to rip off skin to remove it and cried like a baby. But at least now I believed my teacher and I never stuck my tongue on a metal pole in winter again. I guess a subjectivist was born. The point of all this was to hopefully give some perspective from a subjectivist. Thanks for reading if you got this far. sphinxsix, Teresa, look&listen and 1 other 2 2 Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 Would an adult resent being told they can't flap their arms real fast and fly like a bird? Ralf11, Sal1950 and askat1988 2 1 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post 89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 That's an inane analogy, but I'm sure there's some that would. As well, I don't think there's a lot of debate about the maturity of the science behind flight. What would compel you to make a response like that? Honestly curious. That's exactly the type of response that leads to the issues I was trying to give some perspective on. Thanks for the great example. Teresa, sandyk and sphinxsix 1 2 Link to comment
esldude Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 I've on several occasions posted files for listeners to try and to show if they could hear a difference. I get very little response on those. So I've not bothered to do more. Most of the response is from subjective oriented listeners wishing to derail the thread. Funny how that happens when people get to listen. In one I was accused of only posting such files when I knew no one could hear the difference. In that particular one I'd tested myself and could pick the differences blind. I was accused of not having good hearing too. The few who took part couldn't hear the difference. Instead of asking me how I did it most complained in all manner of ways about how blind listening didn't work. Curious all the way round. So what suggestions do you have for bridging the Gap? And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post esldude Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 6 minutes ago, lasker98 said: That's an inane analogy, but I'm sure there's some that would. As well, I don't think there's a lot of debate about the maturity of the science behind flight. What would compel you to make a response like that? Honestly curious. That's exactly the type of response that leads to the issues I was trying to give some perspective on. Thanks for the great example. There shouldn't be some of the debates about the science behind electronics that there are. And some of that does come from adults not wanting to be told something isn't so. Even hearing is mature in some basic areas that people twist into pretzal logic trying to avoid basic facts. Rather than learn from each other they want to treat it like some mystical thing to avoid some simple truth. mansr and sarvsa 2 And always keep in mind: Cognitive biases, like seeing optical illusions are a sign of a normally functioning brain. We all have them, it’s nothing to be ashamed about, but it is something that affects our objective evaluation of reality. Link to comment
Popular Post marce Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 At the end of the day... Ralf11 and esldude 2 Link to comment
Rt66indierock Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 It's not a either or debate. As I work toward marketing high performance audio to younger people they seem to grasp transparent. Coloring the sound is a harder concept. Link to comment
Popular Post 89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 37 minutes ago, esldude said: So what suggestions do you have for bridging the Gap? Thanks for both responses. As for your posted listening test files, I have to say I'm not aware of those or the posts. To be honest it's something I have no interest in. No offense meant. It does raise another point though. As I stated originally, I do have interest in measurements and explanations of what I heard, but I have almost zero interest or capabilities to provide them myself. I'm sure if I or others that post personal experiences had those to provide, they would have been provided. So why keep hammering on in every thread with requests to have them provided if it's obvious they're not available? Stopping that would be one way to help bridge the gap. Posting in threads that you have nothing to contribute to (myself included) would be another way. Those two things alone contribute to nothing but hard feelings at the least. sandyk and Teresa 1 1 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 29 minutes ago, lasker98 said: This topic seems to becoming more and more of an issue on CA. I'd like to use this post as an opportunity to try an clarify my "problems" with the objectivist camp specifically, since I'm apparently a subjectivist. Broadly speaking, for me, a subjectivist leans more to being interested in other's listening impressions, and personal experiences with whatever is being discussed. Objectivists lean more towards being interested in actual measurements and a scientific explanation of what's behind these subjectivist reports. Within each group there's various degrees of overlap. For example, in my case, although I may be considered a subjectivist, I'm interested in seeing measurements, if available. I'm also very interested in learning the hows and whys behind what myself and others are reporting. I'm also sure that many objectivists are interested in the impressions reported by subjectivists. Many sites and reviews are clearly a combination of objectivist and subjectivist perspective. We've all read reviews with varying degrees of listening impressions and measurements and I'm sure most have a preference for more or less of each. Just as there can be a lot of overlap within the two camps, there also appears to be the opposite case, less and less overlap until those in each camp become almost opposed and unwilling to listen to the other camp (kind of like the way the world in general seems to be going ?). This to me is where the problems begin, although at the risk of offending, I believe it's more of an issue with the hard core objectivists then the hard core subjectivists. From my viewpoint, the objectivists, at least in the context of this site, have nothing to post about without the reporting of experiences by the subjectivists. How many popular, long running threads have we seen based solely on so-called objectivist criteria? Not many, if any I would say. And if there are, I would suspect that very few so-called subjectivists are active participants. On the other hand, there's many, many threads started by people posting their listening impressions. It's these threads that perceived problems arise from. Depending on the topic or context, more or less of the objectivist camp becomes involved. In the worst cases, the objectivists actually "take over" the thread with their requests for measurements, tests, explanations to back up the reported listening impression. It's like the objectivists need the subjectivists to react to, without that, the objectivists are pretty much impotent. Depending on those involved from both camps and the topic and context, many of these threads don't end well, with likely the OP and other early participants long gone. I myself get drawn into some of these threads and always end up regretting it. This post could drag on even more (I know, hard to believe) but to come to a point, for me, as a subjectivist and an alleged adult, I resent being told what I can or cannot hear. It would be one thing if those saying it can't be, generally the more hard core of the objectivist camp, had actually had some kind of personal experience with the product under discussion, but that rarely, if ever, is the case. Their posts are generally based on work experience, prior education, books, YouTube, that have convinced them that what's being reported by the subjectivist is either imaginary or impossible. Many times the fall back is that the science or physics or whatever else is so well known that it would be impossible. To me, this attitude is verging on ludicrous, especially for topics related to computer audio, digital audio, etc. As a layman, it appears this field is changing incredibly rapidly. Hardly what would be expected if everything was already known. I'm sure some objectivists are already thinking "exactly, that's why there's so much snake oil". I'm sure that's true to a large extent. But isn't that in itself a sign of an subject with a lot of unknowns? This to me is probably my biggest issue, the apparent close mindedness from the more scientific/educated side of the hard core objectivists. It strikes me as almost arrogant that anyone would think that they know everything that could ever be known about a topic, especially topics being discussed on this site. Where's the scientific interest to explore for themselves and actually try some of these products for themselves? Then they would be in a position to apply their specific expertise to either prove the subjectivists reporting wrong or at least continue with more investigation. The main point being that they would be in a far more relevant position to post about what may or may not be behind the subjectivist experience. I'm not aware of a lot of scientific breakthroughs that were made sitting at a keyboard arguing in a forum. Again for me, without that personal experience, those objectivist posts have very little relevance, especially after years of reading the same types of things being posted by the same people over and over in multiple threads. Honestly, we've all read it so many times, you can save the effort and not even bother posting. We already know what you're going to say. I'm going to finish with this to give any left reading what they're up against. When I was 6 or 7 years old in school, my teacher told us not to touch cold metal with your tongue or your tongue would freeze to the metal. Recess came and the first thing I did was run over to the closest metal pole and lick it. Guess what? My tongue stuck to it, had to rip off skin to remove it and cried like a baby. But at least now I believed my teacher and I never stuck my tongue on a metal pole in winter again. I guess a subjectivist was born. The point of all this was to hopefully give some perspective from a subjectivist. Thanks for reading if you got this far. Implicit in your post is the presumption that the subjectivist view is somehow better, that the objectivists are here only to pick a fight with the poor subjectivists. That automatic classification into us and them, that 'they' are the enemy is what causes a lot of the conflict here, IMHO. I consider myself an objectivist. I came here to learn about computer audio, having been an audiophile for most of my life. I like to see measurements, I prefer to understand the technology, and I prefer to learn about things I don't know or don't understand. I get that there are others who are not interested in these things, been there, done that. But what makes your approach any more valid than mine? Should I just leave because you don't like my approach? It is a hobby, after all. Each of us derives something different from it. Tolerance and civilized discussion is a lost art, apparently and that saddens me immensely. semente, PleasantSounds, mansr and 7 others 10 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, esldude said: There shouldn't be some of the debates about the science behind electronics that there are. I have no idea about your background but do you honestly believe that everything relating to the science of electronics is already known? Nothing more to be learned? Teresa 1 Link to comment
crenca Posted December 28, 2018 Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 hour ago, lasker98 said: On the other hand, there's many, many threads started by people posting their listening impressions. Of course. This is subjectivised audiophiledom. Art and wine, impressionistic, subjective testimonials can and will go on forever. People like to affirm their feelings, emotions, and endlessly opine in a "I added fill_in_the_blank, or I reversed my digital cable, and a 1000 veils were lifted" sort of way. This emotionalism is tightly tied to the consumerism of Audiophiledom, and thus is promoted by EVERYONE on all sides of the industry. The @The Computer Audiophileto his credit, allows an open forum where the very real cons of this culture can be discussed freely, while at the same time allowing these eternal "listening impressions" threads as well such as the austinpop's "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" thread. I have not posted in that thread and would not, because anything but radical subjectivism has been explicitly "moderated" away. 1 hour ago, lasker98 said: It's these threads that perceived problems arise from. Depending on the topic or context, more or less of the objectivist camp becomes involved. In the worst cases, the objectivists actually "take over" the thread This he said, she said is tiring. On the most recent digital cable thread which prompted @The Computer Audiophilepoll for moderation, it was subjectist sandyk's hounding of mansr no nonsense advice, which he does on most threads, that prompted the debate. True, objectivists continued the debate and did not settle for a subjectist "take over" of the thread. In the end, what sort of forum is Chris going to have? OP moderation? Then many (most?) threads will be either/or. Moderation? Some have suggested austinpop, but he is a radical subjectivist who "moderates" what has to be the largest subjectivist shows here at CA - would he, could he, moderate "fairly"? None of this civility stuff is going well - neither this thread or for the wider CA... esldude 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said: Implicit in your post is the presumption that the subjectivist view is somehow better, that the objectivists are here only to pick a fight with the poor subjectivists. That automatic classification into us and them, that 'they' are the enemy is what causes a lot of the conflict here, IMHO. I don't think it's "implicit". I think it can easily be taken that way, which really wasn't my intent. I don't believe I did classify into us and them. I was hoping to show there's a lot of common ground but at the extremes that common ground is gone and that's where the issues arise. If you carefully re-read my initial post and then your response, I hope you would see how much of your own interpretation you put into what I wrote. "They", the enemy, poor subjectivists, pick a fight. Those are your words, not mine. I am definitely not trying to pick a fight, please believe that. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Rt66indierock Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 9 minutes ago, lasker98 said: I have no idea about your background but do you honestly believe that everything relating to the science of electronics is already known? Nothing more to be learned? We are a lot further along than high end audio marketing would have you think. sarvsa, esldude, marce and 1 other 3 1 Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, crenca said: None of this civility stuff is going well - neither this thread or for the wider CA... Maybe a lot of us don't really understand what civility is. There's a lot of common ground here. Why do some have to focus on the extremes instead of that common ground? look&listen 1 Link to comment
Popular Post marce Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 What the objectives accept is that perception is fallible and when a difference is perceived, don't instantly trust their ears, but do further investigation... To determine their is am actual change and if their is what the mechanism is that's causing the change. sarvsa, semente, RickyV and 4 others 5 2 Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Rt66indierock said: We are a lot further along than high end audio marketing would have you think. I really don't believe those posting their own experiences are doing high end marketing. Teresa 1 Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 11 minutes ago, lasker98 said: If you carefully re-read my initial post and then your response, I hope you would see how much of your own interpretation you put into what I wrote. "They", the enemy, poor subjectivists, pick a fight. Those are your words, not mine. That's how I interpreted the following: Quote From my viewpoint, the objectivists, at least in the context of this site, have nothing to post about without the reporting of experiences by the subjectivists..... Depending on the topic or context, more or less of the objectivist camp becomes involved. In the worst cases, the objectivists actually "take over" the thread with their requests for measurements, tests, explanations to back up the reported listening impression. It's like the objectivists need the subjectivists to react to, without that, the objectivists are pretty much impotent. Hugo9000, crenca and mansr 3 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
Popular Post 89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 12 minutes ago, marce said: What the objectives accept is that perception is fallible and when a difference is perceived, don't instantly trust their ears, but do further investigation... To determine their is am actual change and if their is what the mechanism is that's causing the change. It seems a lot of objectivists are more focused on the perception issue. I get that everyone has their own way of perceiving something and when it comes to spending my hard earned dollars, my perception and experience of others that I may have a level of trust in, is going to be the deciding factor. For one thing, I don't have the expertise to make an intelligent decision based on measurements. As well, what makes those specific measurements relevant or accurate? Who am I to know? Where I believe the objectivists can make a truly valuable contribution is in actually doing the investigation based on their own actual experiences (if they really do care enough) and then providing the results. A lot seem to have the ability but not the desire. In my case I may have the desire but not the ability. RickyV and Teresa 2 Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, pkane2001 said: That's how I interpreted the following: I'm disappointed and surprised that's what you took from that. I don't know what else to say. Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 The term "objectivist" is primarily deployed by "subjectivists" as a label and a term of dismissal. It is like calling the other guy a "socialist." You give them a label, so you don't have to take their point of view into consideration. They become, by definition, the outsider, the gadfly, the disruptive tendency. esldude, crenca, Ralf11 and 7 others 9 1 Link to comment
Popular Post wgscott Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 15 minutes ago, lasker98 said: Maybe a lot of us don't really understand what civility is. There's a lot of common ground here. Why do some have to focus on the extremes instead of that common ground? Because others use "uncivil" as a term of dismissal, and "civility" as something to hide behind, while declaring their safe-space. crenca, sarvsa, mansr and 2 others 4 1 Link to comment
Popular Post crenca Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 7 minutes ago, lasker98 said: I really don't believe those posting their own experiences are doing high end marketing. No, but in very important ways they might as well be. Pick just about any random post on @austinpop "A novel way to massively improve the SQ of computer audio streaming" thread and compare it to any random High End marketing post done by Part-Time Audiophile or just about any other Audiophile publication. It's all the same thing... 14 minutes ago, lasker98 said: I am definitely not trying to pick a fight, please believe that. I believe you! That said this subject is difficult because you presuppositions around what "subjective user experience" is, what it means, and how it relates to the "common ground" of the quest for high fidelity makes this discussion very very difficult. Yes, it is a matter of emphasis. As an objectivist, I freely admit that this hobby is 80, 90% "subjectivism". The problem is that subjectivists such as yourself have such a strong emphasis around your subjectivised "user experiences" that you have taken an important truth and mashed, mangled, and abused it into a falsehood. Thus JA is right, Audiophiledom is not about reality, it's about faith. 89reksal and esldude 1 1 Hey MQA, if it is not all $voodoo$, show us the math! Link to comment
Popular Post Jud Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 57 minutes ago, marce said: At the end of the day... Sure. But if someone told you your job was unskilled and easy because all the physics behind it is already known, you might not feel complimented. Of course all the physics behind it is already known. But there's a heck of a lot of proper implementation left to do, and there the attitude that one might not already know everything is a distinct help. I personally feel there are two additional layers when we're talking about audio. One is human hearing, and as far as I'm aware there is only a single scientist working in that field who posts at all on these forums (not terribly often). That leaves an awful lot of knowledge in this area for the other thousands of us to gain. I see a tremendous lack of curiosity about this area from lots of people who feel they favor a scientific point of view, which to me is a bit of a contradiction, because I always thought curiosity was a fundamental for science. The other is how individual pieces of equipment and their interconnections come together to form a system. You wouldn't feel a PCB design was done once you'd selected components, perhaps with no particular specs for several of them, and put traces among them in no particular fashion. But that's what most audio systems are - a computer, a DAC, perhaps a preamp, an amp, speakers (maybe headphones), interconnects, with perhaps a spec or two (you might have a desired processor speed for the computer, a maximum input resolution for the DAC, perhaps a desired minimum output power for the amp, perhaps a desired low end frequency response for speakers/subs), but no particular simulation or testing to tell you how they'll all operate together in your home. No one would design a PCB or circuitry for a piece of audio equipment this way, but that's how we (don't) design our systems. None of this means I don't see among the forum posts claims that I feel are almost certainly ridiculous. But to me it does counsel a certain way of discussing things that begins with humility. And just personally, I have always had a predilection to give far more credibility to those who evidence such humility. Superdad, Currawong, spin33 and 6 others 6 3 One never knows, do one? - Fats Waller The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. - Einstein Computer, Audirvana -> optical Ethernet to Fitlet3 -> Fibbr Alpha Optical USB -> iFi NEO iDSD DAC -> Apollon Audio 1ET400A Mini (Purifi based) -> Vandersteen 3A Signature. Link to comment
Popular Post pkane2001 Posted December 28, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, lasker98 said: I'm disappointed and surprised that's what you took from that. I don't know what else to say. I apologize if I misinterpreted your intentions, but on re-reading your words, I still get the same impression: objectivists have nothing better to do here but to attack subjectivists and to derail their threads. 89reksal, askat1988 and PeterSt 2 1 -Paul DeltaWave, DISTORT, Earful, PKHarmonic, new: Multitone Analyzer Link to comment
89reksal Posted December 28, 2018 Author Share Posted December 28, 2018 1 minute ago, wgscott said: Because others use "uncivil" as a term of dismissal, and "civility" as something to hide behind, while declaring their safe-space. I have to say I don't get the point you're making. I see that as a totally different topic but that's only me. Maybe it's more related than I realize. Link to comment
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