Objectivists/Subjectivists

[Rt66indierock]

22 minutes ago, Norton said:

 

But again you describe youself as being further towards the “objective side” wholly in terms of being critical of what others claim or hear.  You have gone to the trouble of labelling yourself as an objectivist in your signature, but I see nothing yet by way of explanation or illustration as to how you apply that objectivity in a positive form to your own audio choices.  As an objectivist are you able to outline what you like and the measurements and testing that got you there?  Alternatively,  would “Junior Skeptic” be a more accurate self-description ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Maybe go look on ARS, Audibility thresholds of amps and  DAC  measurements? flipflop lays out some of the objective stuff and there are some good comments.

[plissken]

22 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Why not a 3M long Belkin USB cable. which after all complies with the USB specifications , and why not using an Audiophile Software player such as those from Miska, Peter or JRiver ?

 

 

Because I don't need a 3M long cable. I use an 18 inch cable and it keeps things nice and tidy. I mentioned JRiver already along with Tidal.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

According to Amir, if the USB cable makes any difference connected to your DAC that only means your DAC is poorly designed. 

 

And, he's exactly right. If any part of the system which is consumer exchangeable makes a significant difference to the sound then it means the robustness of the setup is poor - it's fragile to variations in the environment, which means that what you experience at any time is dependent on many "wrong things".

 

The best rig is one where you can "jump up and down", do whatever you damn well please - and the the sound remains exactly the same.

[fas42]

4 hours ago, plissken said:

 

Here's the issue. There is no 'The heavy handed application of "attitude" '.  What you just did was paint the honest question I asked with the color of it having attitude.

 

Bottom line is if you don't trust your ears, why should I?

 

 

I'm sorry if you misunderstood - I wasn't reacting to a post of yours at all, when I made that comment.

 

You don't "test ears" with an arbitrary test, chosen by the one questioning an ability - if someone has become sensitive, or acute in picking up on something "specialist" using the physical senses, then that normally won't generalise - if you can easily identify wines by their smell, you would shake your head if someone asked you to identify different animal poop by smell, "as a test".

[fas42]

2 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

To answer a question a few pages back...

 

everything relating to the science of electronics is already known as far as audio goes

 

That does not mean all technological implementations have been made, or that new materials or processing will not occur in the future.  I started a thread 1-2 days ago for just this question.

 

Everything is in place, right now, for brilliant subjective quality to be realised. And the same was the case, 30 years ago. The only reason it doesn't happen is that not enough attention to detail is applied; and while everyone keeps chasing the Adding Goodness! goddess, year after year, all the same old problems will still be present, to drag the perceived quality down ...

[plissken]

13 minutes ago, fas42 said:

 

I'm sorry if you misunderstood - I wasn't reacting to a post of yours at all, when I made that comment.

 

You don't "test ears" with an arbitrary test, chosen by the one questioning an ability -

 

Actually I've not done that at all. What I've done is accommodate the claimants evaluation process.

 

When posters at another forum where going on about burned in cables I offered to send out 2 sets off randomly labeled cables. They could evaluate with out any administrator, in their own setup, with their own material, and that their own pace, at their own # of intervals.

 

The result was as funny as you would have expected.

[fas42]

Fair enough. The subjectivists can trip themselves up just as easily as anyone, if they decide to be dogmatic about things - I have been aware of myself getting drawn into a self imposed 'trap' of trying to discern something; and having to pull back. If I can't pick it, then there is nothing of real value there in the exercise of choosing - the alternatives are equally OK.

[Allan F]

1 hour ago, fas42 said:

If any part of the system which is consumer exchangeable makes a significant difference to the sound then it means the robustness of the setup is poor - it's fragile to variations in the environment, which means that what you experience at any time is dependent on many "wrong things".

 

Many will say that the opposite is true, e.g. if you make significant changes to the source components of your system and there is no difference to the sound, your system lacks transparency.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, plissken said:

 

Because I don't need a 3M long cable. I use an 18 inch cable and it keeps things nice and tidy. I mentioned JRiver already along with Tidal.

 As is usually the case, you are trying to skew the results in your favour.

Use a USB cable of a typical length that most other members would need to use. The vast majority of advertised USB cables appear to be around 1.8M in length, with many members needing to use longer than 1.8M

[fas42]

15 minutes ago, Allan F said:

 

Many will say that the complete opposite is true, e.g. if you make significant changes to the source components of your system and there is no difference to the sound, your system lacks transparency.

 

OK, the way to look it is that there is "your system", and then there is everything else. You want the "system" to be 100% transparent to the recording, that's what you work towards. So, you do whatever's necessary to get closer to that, and anything you do that modifies, and adds to it, to make that happen, is part, becomes part, of "your system".

 

It's a process of refining - not a "Gee whiz! I put in a different amplifier - and my rig sound is totally altered!" ... bad sign! Your rig is now like a theatre stage with a powerful lighting setup - flip a couple of switches, and the mood changes completely. Great, if you want that - but, if you want everything to look 'natural' the method is different.

[STC]

3 hours ago, Ralf11 said:

  I started a thread 1-2 days ago for just this question.

 

Which one?

[Music Enthusiast]

4 hours ago, wgscott said:

 

But it has already been established that differences revealed by a low-end DAC disappear when the quality is improved:

 

 

vs

 

 

 

Of course, the "ultra-high-end" might actually be inferior, in which case it could help reveal a problem.

 

 

Source:  https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/do-usb-audio-cables-make-a-difference.1887/

All that proves to me is with those particular tests he used, he obtained no change between cables with certain DAC’s. What those tests fail to prove is if those tests are all it takes to prove there’s no difference. 

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

All that proves to me is with those particular tests he used, he obtained no change between cables with certain DAC’s. What those tests fail to prove is if those tests are all it takes to prove there’s no difference. 

 All this suggests is that a large percentage of C.A. members are using DACs with inferior USB implementation, even some of the very expensive DACs.

This is borne out by the size of the Cottage Industry devoted to supplying improved USB cables and other USB gadgets such as IsoRegens etc.

[crenca]

11 minutes ago, Music Enthusiast said:

All that proves to me is with those particular tests he used, he obtained no change between cables with certain DAC’s. What those tests fail to prove is if those tests are all it takes to prove there’s no difference. 

 

?  Right!  What is it called (avoiding the word "science" here) that you are asking for - "proof" that there is no difference in the set of all USB cables/end points?

[Allan F]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 All this suggests is that a large percentage of C.A. members are using DACs with inferior USB implementation, even some of the very expensive DACs.

This is borne out by the size of the Cottage Industry devoted to supplying improved USB cables and other USB gadgets such as IsoRegens etc.

 

Why don't we just admit it, Alex. It's all in our minds. Any differences that we hear repeatedly can only be the product of expectation bias or some similar phenomenon, regardless of the fact that we have no idea at the outset whether a new USB cable will sound better, worse, or the same as one with which we have become extremely familiar over time. Our experience gained from decades of critical listening means nothing, apart from giving us a false and unsupportable belief that any differences we hear are real. I hope this will make the objectivists in our community feel better.

 

Happy New Year!

[wgscott]

Not all of them.  Just the ones that you can't identify with your eyes closed.

[esldude]

2 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Not all of them.  Just the ones that you can't identify with your eyes closed.

I may have had an epiphany.  Qualified EE means either Eyes and Ears or maybe Eyes Engaged.?

[sandyk]

6 minutes ago, esldude said:

I may have had an epiphany.

 

 I hope it didn't hurt too much !

[Allan F]

25 minutes ago, esldude said:

I may have had an epiphany.  Qualified EE means either Eyes and Ears or maybe Eyes Engaged.?

Or maybe EE stands for Eccentric Epiphany.

[Sal1950]

43 minutes ago, wgscott said:

Not all of them.  Just the ones that you can't identify with your eyes closed.

That is the bottom line here.  A motto to go forward into the New Year understanding.

[fas42]

Note the fascination with, "identification" ... Now sir, we have introduced two rattles in your car, Rattle A, and Rattle B; to win the Jackpot, you have to identify the correct rattle, 15 out of 20 times ... Umm, I just don't want to hear any rattles, at all ... I'm afraid, sir, that is an unacceptable answer! To be worthy, you have to be able to identify the rattles consistently; this shows you have the correct level of hearing skill to appreciate well engineered audio equipment! ... Ummm, I just want to enjoy a quiet ride in my car, and the music ... That does not compute! That does not compute! That does not ...

[Don Hills]

19 hours ago, Music Enthusiast said:

... Most objectivists who have anything worthwhile to offer avoid forums like the plague. ...

 

I think Thomas is referring to the fact that some of the most truly knowledgeable people, responsible for much of the progress in audio in their lifetime, do frequent forums or mailing lists. Some of them used to post here.

[Audiophile Neuroscience]

3 hours ago, Allan F said:

 

Why don't we just admit it, Alex. It's all in our minds. Any differences that we hear repeatedly can only be the product of expectation bias or some similar phenomenon, regardless of the fact that we have no idea at the outset whether a new USB cable will sound better, worse, or the same as one with which we have become extremely familiar over time. Our experience gained from decades of critical listening means nothing, apart from giving us a false and unsupportable belief that any differences we hear are real. I hope this will make the objectivists in our community feel better.

 

Happy New Year!

 

perhaps they would not be happy if there was nothing to object-to-it about ? but its a nice new year's thought Allan! What staggers me is just how many times the Subjectivist / Objectivist merry go round can ..go round.

 

perhaps we could make this thread a 'sticky' so that people can be tempted to bring future S/O discussions here and out of (most) other threads? Wishful thinking I think.

 

Happy New Year!

[Sal1950]

On 12/30/2018 at 2:11 PM, Sal1950 said:

Are you serious, what did you do, keep a file on my posts? Or did you sit at the keyboard for hours doing research on the number of times you could find me using some religious term?  TOO TOO funny.

Just thought I'd let our members know I was contacted by agtp on another site and he WAS keeping a file on my posts. Something about them or me gives him a unnatural interest.  😁  That's fine,  I'm well prepared for stalkers. 

 

[Ralf11]

Maybe he has a "thing" for bikers?