MQA is Vaporware

[lucretius]

On 6/30/2019 at 8:58 AM, jabbr said:

Roon is the latest to tackle the music library browser business. They don’t have a Linux desktop library browser.

 

Not sure what you mean.  There exists Roon Server for linux, albeit you need Roon Remote to interface to it.

[lucretius]

On 6/30/2019 at 8:48 AM, jabbr said:

By Apple you mean iTunes here. They created the music download business

 

Apple’s iTunes Music Store came into existence for one major reason: Napster.  OTH, I believe it was Apple that introduced DRM -- thanks.

[lucretius]

On 6/30/2019 at 11:42 AM, Sal1950 said:

Your putting the a great motto to a bad cause Chris 

 

I think this was done before. 😀

[The Computer Audiophile]

7 minutes ago, lucretius said:

OTH, I believe it was Apple that introduced DRM

It was forced upon them by the labels. 

 

Steve Jobs
February 6, 2007

With the stunning global success of Apple’s iPod music player and iTunes online music store, some have called for Apple to “open” the digital rights management (DRM) system that Apple uses to protect its music against theft, so that music purchased from iTunes can be played on digital devices purchased from other companies, and protected music purchased from other online music stores can play on iPods. Let’s examine the current situation and how we got here, then look at three possible alternatives for the future.

To begin, it is useful to remember that all iPods play music that is free of any DRM and encoded in “open” licensable formats such as MP3 and AAC. iPod users can and do acquire their music from many sources, including CDs they own. Music on CDs can be easily imported into the freely-downloadable iTunes jukebox software which runs on both Macs and Windows PCs, and is automatically encoded into the open AAC or MP3 formats without any DRM. This music can be played on iPods or any other music players that play these open formats.

The rub comes from the music Apple sells on its online iTunes Store. Since Apple does not own or control any music itself, it must license the rights to distribute music from others, primarily the “big four” music companies: Universal, Sony BMG, Warner and EMI. These four companies control the distribution of over 70% of the world’s music. When Apple approached these companies to license their music to distribute legally over the Internet, they were extremely cautious and required Apple to protect their music from being illegally copied. The solution was to create a DRM system, which envelopes each song purchased from the iTunes store in special and secret software so that it cannot be played on unauthorized devices.

Apple was able to negotiate landmark usage rights at the time, which include allowing users to play their DRM protected music on up to 5 computers and on an unlimited number of iPods. Obtaining such rights from the music companies was unprecedented at the time, and even today is unmatched by most other digital music services. However, a key provision of our agreements with the music companies is that if our DRM system is compromised and their music becomes playable on unauthorized devices, we have only a small number of weeks to fix the problem or they can withdraw their entire music catalog from our iTunes store.

To prevent illegal copies, DRM systems must allow only authorized devices to play the protected music. If a copy of a DRM protected song is posted on the Internet, it should not be able to play on a downloader’s computer or portable music device. To achieve this, a DRM system employs secrets. There is no theory of protecting content other than keeping secrets. In other words, even if one uses the most sophisticated cryptographic locks to protect the actual music, one must still “hide” the keys which unlock the music on the user’s computer or portable music player. No one has ever implemented a DRM system that does not depend on such secrets for its operation.

The problem, of course, is that there are many smart people in the world, some with a lot of time on their hands, who love to discover such secrets and publish a way for everyone to get free (and stolen) music. They are often successful in doing just that, so any company trying to protect content using a DRM must frequently update it with new and harder to discover secrets. It is a cat-and-mouse game. Apple’s DRM system is called FairPlay. While we have had a few breaches in FairPlay, we have been able to successfully repair them through updating the iTunes store software, the iTunes jukebox software and software in the iPods themselves. So far we have met our commitments to the music companies to protect their music, and we have given users the most liberal usage rights available in the industry for legally downloaded music.

With this background, let’s now explore three different alternatives for the future.

The first alternative is to continue on the current course, with each manufacturer competing freely with their own “top to bottom” proprietary systems for selling, playing and protecting music. It is a very competitive market, with major global companies making large investments to develop new music players and online music stores. Apple, Microsoft and Sony all compete with proprietary systems. Music purchased from Microsoft’s Zune store will only play on Zune players; music purchased from Sony’s Connect store will only play on Sony’s players; and music purchased from Apple’s iTunes store will only play on iPods. This is the current state of affairs in the industry, and customers are being well served with a continuing stream of innovative products and a wide variety of choices.

Some have argued that once a consumer purchases a body of music from one of the proprietary music stores, they are forever locked into only using music players from that one company. Or, if they buy a specific player, they are locked into buying music only from that company’s music store. Is this true? Let’s look at the data for iPods and the iTunes store – they are the industry’s most popular products and we have accurate data for them. Through the end of 2006, customers purchased a total of 90 million iPods and 2 billion songs from the iTunes store. On average, that’s 22 songs purchased from the iTunes store for each iPod ever sold.

Today’s most popular iPod holds 1000 songs, and research tells us that the average iPod is nearly full. This means that only 22 out of 1000 songs, or under 3% of the music on the average iPod, is purchased from the iTunes store and protected with a DRM. The remaining 97% of the music is unprotected and playable on any player that can play the open formats. Its hard to believe that just 3% of the music on the average iPod is enough to lock users into buying only iPods in the future. And since 97% of the music on the average iPod was not purchased from the iTunes store, iPod users are clearly not locked into the iTunes store to acquire their music.

The second alternative is for Apple to license its FairPlay DRM technology to current and future competitors with the goal of achieving interoperability between different company’s players and music stores. On the surface, this seems like a good idea since it might offer customers increased choice now and in the future. And Apple might benefit by charging a small licensing fee for its FairPlay DRM. However, when we look a bit deeper, problems begin to emerge. The most serious problem is that licensing a DRM involves disclosing some of its secrets to many people in many companies, and history tells us that inevitably these secrets will leak. The Internet has made such leaks far more damaging, since a single leak can be spread worldwide in less than a minute. Such leaks can rapidly result in software programs available as free downloads on the Internet which will disable the DRM protection so that formerly protected songs can be played on unauthorized players.

An equally serious problem is how to quickly repair the damage caused by such a leak. A successful repair will likely involve enhancing the music store software, the music jukebox software, and the software in the players with new secrets, then transferring this updated software into the tens (or hundreds) of millions of Macs, Windows PCs and players already in use. This must all be done quickly and in a very coordinated way. Such an undertaking is very difficult when just one company controls all of the pieces. It is near impossible if multiple companies control separate pieces of the puzzle, and all of them must quickly act in concert to repair the damage from a leak.

Apple has concluded that if it licenses FairPlay to others, it can no longer guarantee to protect the music it licenses from the big four music companies. Perhaps this same conclusion contributed to Microsoft’s recent decision to switch their emphasis from an “open” model of licensing their DRM to others to a “closed” model of offering a proprietary music store, proprietary jukebox software and proprietary players.

The third alternative is to abolish DRMs entirely. Imagine a world where every online store sells DRM-free music encoded in open licensable formats. In such a world, any player can play music purchased from any store, and any store can sell music which is playable on all players. This is clearly the best alternative for consumers, and Apple would embrace it in a heartbeat. If the big four music companies would license Apple their music without the requirement that it be protected with a DRM, we would switch to selling only DRM-free music on our iTunes store. Every iPod ever made will play this DRM-free music.

Why would the big four music companies agree to let Apple and others distribute their music without using DRM systems to protect it? The simplest answer is because DRMs haven’t worked, and may never work, to halt music piracy. Though the big four music companies require that all their music sold online be protected with DRMs, these same music companies continue to sell billions of CDs a year which contain completely unprotected music. That’s right! No DRM system was ever developed for the CD, so all the music distributed on CDs can be easily uploaded to the Internet, then (illegally) downloaded and played on any computer or player.

In 2006, under 2 billion DRM-protected songs were sold worldwide by online stores, while over 20 billion songs were sold completely DRM-free and unprotected on CDs by the music companies themselves. The music companies sell the vast majority of their music DRM-free, and show no signs of changing this behavior, since the overwhelming majority of their revenues depend on selling CDs which must play in CD players that support no DRM system.

So if the music companies are selling over 90 percent of their music DRM-free, what benefits do they get from selling the remaining small percentage of their music encumbered with a DRM system? There appear to be none. If anything, the technical expertise and overhead required to create, operate and update a DRM system has limited the number of participants selling DRM protected music. If such requirements were removed, the music industry might experience an influx of new companies willing to invest in innovative new stores and players. This can only be seen as a positive by the music companies.

Much of the concern over DRM systems has arisen in European countries. Perhaps those unhappy with the current situation should redirect their energies towards persuading the music companies to sell their music DRM-free. For Europeans, two and a half of the big four music companies are located right in their backyard. The largest, Universal, is 100% owned by Vivendi, a French company. EMI is a British company, and Sony BMG is 50% owned by Bertelsmann, a German company. Convincing them to license their music to Apple and others DRM-free will create a truly interoperable music marketplace. Apple will embrace this wholeheartedly.

[lucretius]

On 6/30/2019 at 12:36 PM, StreamHiRes said:

It’s not like some Joe Blow just made this MQA thing up in his basement.

 

How do you feel about garages?

 

[Samuel T Cogley]

Just for clarity, what problem did MLP claim to solve?  Was it a max bitrate issue from the DVD optical transport?

 

I'm reading that DVD transport has a max bitrate of around 9.8 mbps.  My math says 6 channels of 24 bit 192000 Hz audio is around 27.6 mbps.  But even with MLP, the best you could do is an effective bitrate of 18 mbps.

 

So I'm thinking they likely limited the bit depth to stay under 18mbps.  6 channels of 16/192 is 18.4 mbps. The LFE channel probably provided an opportunity to get the bitrate under 18 mbps.

[mansr]

15 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

Just for clarity, what problem did MLP claim to solve?  Was it a max bitrate issue from the DVD optical transport?

 

I'm reading that DVD transport has a max bitrate of around 9.8 mbps.  My math says 6 channels of 24 bit 192000 Hz audio is around 27.6 mbps.  But even with MLP, the best you could do is an effective bitrate of 18 mbps.

 

So I'm thinking they likely limited the bit depth to stay under 18mbps.  6 channels of 16/192 is 18.4 mbps. The LFE channel probably provided an opportunity to get the bitrate under 18 mbps.

The maximum data rate on a DVD is, as you say, just under 10 Mbps. 6 channels at 24/96 requires 13.8 Mbps, which will readily fit with some compression. MLP is a reasonable lossless codec. FLAC might be better, but it didn't exist when DVD-Audio was being developed. DVD-Audio supports 192 kHz only for stereo content, which just about fits without compression.

[jabbr]

29 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

Apple’s iTunes Music Store came into existence for one major reason: Napster.  OTH, I believe it was Apple that introduced DRM -- thanks.

 

As far as I’m concerned, the major labels should go away. Artists can produce and sell their own CDs or work with a recording studio. They can sell music online. 

 

DRM was demanded by the studios who own the music (artists should own their music). The iTunes DRM is minimal with an easy out (you can still rip to a CD of your choice)

 

Yes, Apple provided a way for people to access music online without stealing it. Huge win. 

[lucretius]

19 minutes ago, jabbr said:

DRM was demanded by the studios who own the music (artists should own their music). The iTunes DRM is minimal with an easy out (you can still rip to a CD of your choice)

 

Long ago, I've lost some DRM tracks (iTunes), when copied to another computer. That's when I stopped using iTunes.

[Shadders]

7 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

Long ago, I've lost some DRM tracks (iTunes), when copied to another computer. That's when I stopped using iTunes.

Hi,

It is going to happen - Microsoft have stopped access to the e-books :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48829661

 

Will happen to other services and purchases, such as games etc. I always purchase the CD or DVD/Blu-ray, and have never downloaded. There will always be a glitch, dispute, or cessation of service, affecting the customers.

 

Regards,

Shadders.

[lucretius]

On 6/30/2019 at 1:50 PM, Paul R said:

By the way, at that time, everything Apple had moved to an open source based Unix.

 

Apple, far more so than Microsoft, which is now an open-source believer, is the most proprietary computer company still in business today. Historically, Apple grows its software from open-source seeds, but the company's developers rarely contribute much code back; that is to say, Apple is much more of an open-source user than a supporter.

 

[new_media]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

Apple’s iTunes Music Store came into existence for one major reason: Napster.  OTH, I believe it was Apple that introduced DRM -- thanks.

 

Apple certainly didn't invent DRM. Liquid Audio, which later became Windows Media Audio, was offering DRM-crippled downloads at least 4 years before the iTunes Music Store launched.

[new_media]

37 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

Long ago, I've lost some DRM tracks (iTunes), when copied to another computer. That's when I stopped using iTunes.

 

iTunes tracks with DRM should still work after being moved to new computer. You just have to authorize iTunes with the account you originally purchased them with.

[The Computer Audiophile]

Anyone remember MusicGiants?

[lucretius]

8 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Anyone remember MusicGiants?

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=2665

[Paul R]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

Apple’s iTunes Music Store came into existence for one major reason: Napster.  OTH, I believe it was Apple that introduced DRM -- thanks.

 

Came into being because Steve Jobs was able to take on the music industry and win, at least a bit.  Then more and more wins.

 

Napster was a file sharing service at the time, under lawsuit. Super inventive, and probably some of the inspiration for both iTunes and the iTunes Store.   

 

As for DRM, Apple did not introduce it, and fought against it quite effectively - you are spreading misinformation.  Lookup the Secure Digital Music Initiative. You will find the roots of DRM technology go back decades before even that. IBM, in fact, rejected encrypted software as far back as 1969, after spending a ton of money trying to make it viable. 

 

MQA just represents yet another pitiable attempt to implement DRM, this time after the horse has left the barn. Software based DRM is always ultimately defeated, and hardware based DRM usually fails after a bit too. 

 

 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

Despite MLP, I would have preferred that DVD-Audio succeed over SACD.

DVD-A was simply a container for 24 bit audio. Once we got passed dial up it was destined to die quickly.

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

2 hours ago, lucretius said:

 

So we can blame all this hi rez nonsense on old Neil?

He was one of the first to have is engineers archive tapes with state of the art (for the time) ADC, and many of them at 176.4.

[Samuel T Cogley]

When I finally got around to ripping DVD-A discs, was quite disappointed to see the volume maximization and peak limiting.  Just like MQA 🙂

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Anyone remember MusicGiants?

I still have a baseball cap from them.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I still have a baseball cap from them.

At least you can still use that. The music isn’t playable anymore. 

[Ishmael Slapowitz]

15 minutes ago, Samuel T Cogley said:

When I finally got around to ripping DVD-A discs, was quite disappointed to see the volume maximization and peak limiting.  Just like MQA 🙂

That being said there many DVD-As with great 24 bit mastering, many at 24/192...but what was a little insidious was many remixes, with no indication as such...titles from the Eagles, Grateful Dead, and others come to mind. Even the DVD-A of the Stone Temple Pilots Core was a remix.

[alfe]

4 hours ago, mansr said:

4 hours ago, mansr said:

The maximum data rate on a DVD is, as you say, just under 10 Mbps. 

 

Don't believe wikipedia too much, the maximum transfert rate of DVD is 11,08 Mbps.

[FredericV]

Sometimes we need to remind you that MQA is NOT 24 BIT. This is from public FB. Anyone can look him up and see this post.

MQA uses a 24 bit flac container, but it can't resolve 24 bit - no matter what the influencers claim - they never learn - and they are wrong. Maybe he can explain where MQA gets it's data for the first unfold, and still be able to resolve 24 bit ...he can't .... 

 

Even Bob admitted to Alpha Audio that music is not 24 bit but typically has a lot less resolution (which MQA uses - and gets away with - to hide it's crypto DRM below the noise floor of the music), so why does PV claim MQA is 24 bit? Where does he get that info? Does he make it up?

[jabbr]

2 hours ago, Ishmael Slapowitz said:

DVD-A was simply a container for 24 bit audio. Once we got passed dial up it was destined to die quickly.

 

In my view it died because there is no way for me to play DVD-A on my computer, or store it in my library. I still buy CDs and SACDs ... I started buying SACDs when I learned how to rip these to my computer using my PS-3.