ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[asdf1000]

7 hours ago, JoshM said:

So are you saying this is an example of Amir getting a measurement wrong? How does this demonstrate his fairness or the value of his measurements?

 

Yes that's exactly what I said obviously. I wrote it. 

 

And here's important added background. I could make the call Amir got it wrong because I had additional 3rd party data to look at to make the call.

 

What I have been saying from the beginning I'd like to see more 3rd party measurements, not less... Common sense says more source is better than just more from Amir.

 

I said numerous times that I have been a fan of Stereophile (JA's measurements) and SoundStage (DS measurements) way before ASR forum existed...

 

In the case of Mojo at the time I had:

 

1. Rob Watts APx555 plots

2. JA's Stereophile's measurements.

3. GoldenEar Japan's APx555 measurements which aligned with Rob Watts

 

i.e. more 3rd party measurements in addition to plots from the DAC designer himself. 

 

Amir adds extra datapoints but I like more.

 

I also mentioned his Mojo measurements were some of his earliest with APx555.

 

Later, his Chord Qutest measurements aligned with Rob Watts and Stereophile. State of the art DAC.

 

And now his measurements align with manufacturer's measurements for KEF R3, Genelec, Neumann, RME, Focurite Sennheiser, Universal Audio, Schiit Audio's newest products etc...

 

 

[asdf1000]

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I'm looking for objective information.

 

Have you pulled up the Modi 1 measurements yet?

[fas42]

Someone's take on that Modi 1 back then, https://darko.audio/2013/01/schiit-audio-modi-2496-dac-review/ - which to me seems about right as a take on the unit, considering the measurements. Also checked out some people commenting on how the 3 compared to the 1, having both, or heard both - a general sense that they were very, very similar to listen to ... so what? Well, the "dramatic" improvement in measurements did little to enhance a subjective take of the beast - it's 'signature', in important areas, were set by other, not measured attributes ...

[PeterSt]

7 hours ago, Miska said:

 

For me, just the fact there exists GUI and display output in a device doing audio output puts me off.

 

I fully agree.

 

There is no such thing as GUI in Windows as well as the playback software, when audio plays. No-thing. It is all "physically" eliminated. That is, in my software.

[semente]

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Yes that's exactly what I said obviously. I wrote it. 

 

And here's important added background. I could make the call Amir got it wrong because I had additional 3rd party data to look at to make the call.

 

What I have been saying from the beginning I'd like to see more 3rd party measurements, not less... Common sense says more source is better than just more from Amir.

 

I said numerous times that I have been a fan of Stereophile (JA's measurements) and SoundStage (DS measurements) way before ASR forum existed...

 

In the case of Mojo at the time I had:

 

1. Rob Watts APx555 plots

2. JA's Stereophile's measurements.

3. GoldenEar Japan's APx555 measurements which aligned with Rob Watts

 

i.e. more 3rd party measurements in addition to plots from the DAC designer himself. 

 

Amir adds extra datapoints but I like more.

 

I also mentioned his Mojo measurements were some of his earliest with APx555.

 

Later, his Chord Qutest measurements aligned with Rob Watts and Stereophile. State of the art DAC.

 

And now his measurements align with manufacturer's measurements for KEF R3, Genelec, Neumann, RME, Focurite Sennheiser, Universal Audio, Schiit Audio's newest products etc...

 

 

 

You're quite a fan of Rob Watts.

Are you sure he isn't pushing snake oil?

[asdf1000]

50 minutes ago, semente said:

Are you sure he isn't pushing snake oil?

 

Seen 3rd party measurements to show no snake oil ;-)

 

Kimber Kable however... :-)

 

[semente]

41 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Seen 3rd party measurements to show no snake oil ;-)

 

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/chord-hugo-m-scaler-stereophile-review-measurements-also.11868/

 

Not that I agree with the ASR church in regard to upsampling by the way...

 

41 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Kimber Kable however... :-)

 

 

Kimber cable has extremely high capacitance which will produce an audible effect.

 

Some of their prices are ludicrous but so are some of Chord's... It's a transversal problem in domestic audio.

[asdf1000]

5 minutes ago, semente said:

Some of their prices are ludicrous but so are some of Chord's... It's a transversal problem in domestic audio.

 

I respect your comment. Pricing is not something I brought up in this discussion though.

 

So it's 'problem' of a different kind, for some people.

 

Technical performance, the Chord stuff is very very good (not only because Chord marketing says, but 3rd party measurements). Just like some much more affordable products too.

 

[Bill Brown]

6 hours ago, semente said:

Kimber cable has extremely high capacitance which will produce an audible effect.

 

In speaker cable it could be argued that this is a good idea (one I agree with, preferring high capacitance rather than high inductance).  It also could be argued that this isn't the case for interconnects, though star-quad has it and I use it for my balanced connections.

 

Bill

[Ben-M]

On 2/25/2021 at 10:18 PM, plissken said:

I can assure you that I'm indeed a cat. Joe is a penguin. I see him at my AA meetings.

I am still dying at this. Thanks.

[wbh]

The basic confusion  behind ASR, Amir-o-philes, hydrogenaudio folks, et. al., is that when they note that MEASUREMENTS is only thing that matters, are are SELF-CONFLICTED  (cognitive dissonance) in that the cheapest phones and WalMart devices also measure extremely well. So why continue to test even $100 dacs when your phone will do. Hell, John Atkinson proved how decently a 2003 Apple iPod measured here:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/apple-ipod-portable-music-player-measurements

 

So why do they  bother to buy cheap audiophile gear (Topping d-10, etc., Schiit Modi, etc) when even cheaper gear will fit the OBJECTIVE bill? 

And why continue to beat the same, boring drum at all -- i.e., one carbon-copy/copied-n-pasted "science-based" review after 'nother ? Oh ... 'cause Amir needs the $$ from his ... merch ;)

 

 

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/asr-merchandise-to-order.20549/

https://www.audio “science” review/forum/index.php?threads/help-and-ideas-for-asr-merchandize.19820/page-9

 

I'm waitin' for ASR underwear. Chris C. needs that stylish ASR logo on is left butt cheek.

If not, maybe he  can squeeze into some XXL Spider-Man drawz ;)

[jtwrace]

Perhaps you all should watch this:

 

 

[lucretius]

7 hours ago, semente said:

Kimber cable has extremely high capacitance which will produce an audible effect.

 

In some cases the lack of shielding will also produce an audible effect.  🙂

[bobbmd]

Dood? Try DUDE

[Bill Brown]

1 hour ago, lucretius said:

 

In some cases the lack of shielding will also produce an audible effect.  🙂

 

Though the low inductance decreases the cable acting as an "antenna" and perhaps decreases the need for a shield (that may cause other problems at speaker level).  :)

[wbh]

2 hours ago, jtwrace said:

Perhaps you all should watch this:

 

 

Gotta say ... CC is a natural when it comes to YT. And no ... I ain't an AS supportin' member ... but I sho' wunt bored. Not with Amir ... he keeps his vids short ... but even so, I'm yawned AF!!!!!

Maybe ASR should take Penn & Teller's advice for video success .... f-bombs and TITS ;)

[Josh Mound]

19 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Have you pulled up the Modi 1 measurements yet?

I’m honestly confused. As near as I can tell, the ASR measurements didn’t conflict with the Modi 1’s specs. Perhaps they might’ve, but as I said above, Amir doesn’t necessarily take the same measurements or use the same VRMS as the manufacturer. Regardless, at the time Amir measured the Modi 1, it was a five-year-old discontinued product. 
 

19 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Yes that's exactly what I said obviously. I wrote it. 

 

And here's important added background. I could make the call Amir got it wrong because I had additional 3rd party data to look at to make the call.

 

What I have been saying from the beginning I'd like to see more 3rd party measurements, not less... Common sense says more source is better than just more from Amir.

 

I said numerous times that I have been a fan of Stereophile (JA's measurements) and SoundStage (DS measurements) way before ASR forum existed...

 

In the case of Mojo at the time I had:

 

1. Rob Watts APx555 plots

2. JA's Stereophile's measurements.

3. GoldenEar Japan's APx555 measurements which aligned with Rob Watts

 

i.e. more 3rd party measurements in addition to plots from the DAC designer himself. 

 

Amir adds extra datapoints but I like more.

 

I also mentioned his Mojo measurements were some of his earliest with APx555.

 

Later, his Chord Qutest measurements aligned with Rob Watts and Stereophile. State of the art DAC.

 

And now his measurements align with manufacturer's measurements for KEF R3, Genelec, Neumann, RME, Focurite Sennheiser, Universal Audio, Schiit Audio's newest products etc...

 

 

 

There have been other times when his measurements haven’t aligned with the manufacturer’s or other reviewers’. Important parts of his Yggdrasil measurements were contradicted by Schiit, JA, AtomicBob, and Jude (who even asked AP for advice on linearity). Amir’s response was to continue asserting he was right and knew better than AP how to operate AP’s analyzer. 

[asdf1000]

3 hours ago, JoshM said:

Regardless, at the time Amir measured the Modi 1, it was a five-year-old discontinued product. 

 

This is a completely irrelevant point in the context of this discussion... which is about why I think more sources of 3rd party measurements are only a good thing... I mentioned numerous times, I've loved JA's (Stereophile) and DS's (SoundStage) measurements before ASR Forum existed. Amir now adds more datapoints.

 

By no means would I want ASR's site to be the only source! Read my own Chord Mojo example carefully too see this... 

 

If Chris adds detailed measurements alongside his subjective reviews (I don't care about other people's subjective reviews. I use my own ears but I don't have an issue with people that do want to read subjective impressions) then he offers the Stereophile playbook, which I've been a fan of for a long time.  And would have my vocal support.

 

So I'm not sure why he's gone on such a defensive tangent and used the words "disingenuous" and "paranoid" and "strange". When you look at my position, then his reaction is most "strange"...

 

3 hours ago, JoshM said:

As near as I can tell, the ASR measurements didn’t conflict with the Modi 1’s specs. Perhaps they might’ve

 

This doesn't make any sense.

 

3 hours ago, JoshM said:

There have been other times when his measurements haven’t aligned with the manufacturer’s or other reviewers’. Important parts of his Yggdrasil measurements were contradicted by Schiit, JA, AtomicBob, and Jude (who even asked AP for advice on linearity). Amir’s response was to continue asserting he was right and knew better than AP how to operate AP’s analyzer. 

 

Yes I followed this case too at the time. It's similar to the Chord Mojo I myself shared... But the Mojo case had much less ugly back-and-forths. Plus the Mojo had detailed APx555 plots shared by the designer on the product's release... well before Amir measured... 

 

Now though, Schiit are sending products to Amir and publishing their own AP plots (I personally value the latter more). 
 

The discussion of DACs is far less interesting to me than amps and speakers and headphones, which Amir now does. Things that produce sound.

 

And his measurements lately correlate well with manufacturer measurements by KEF, Sennheiser, Genelec, Neumann, AKG, Benchmark, JBL, Revel, Hypex and PuriFi based amps, THX based amps and more...

[The Computer Audiophile]

5 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

This is a completely irrelevant point in the context of this discussion... which is about why I think more sources of 3rd party measurements are only a good thing... I mentioned numerous times, I've loved JA's (Stereophile) and DS's (SoundStage) measurements before ASR Forum existed. Amir now adds more datapoints.

 

By no means would I want his site to be the only source! Read my own Chord Mojo example carefully too see this... 

 

If Chris adds detailed measurements alongside his subjective reviews (I don't care about other people's subjective reviews. I use my own ears but I don't have an issue with people that do want to read subjective impressions) then he offers the Stereophile playbook, which I've been a fan of for a long time.  And would have my vocal support.

 

So I'm not sure why he's gone on such a defensive tangent and used the words "disingenuous" and "paranoid" and "strange". When you look at my position, then his reaction is most "strange"...

 

 

This doesn't make any sense.

 

 

Yes I followed this case too at the time. It's similar to the Chord Mojo I myself shared... But the Mojo case had much less ugly back-and-forths. Plus the Mojo had detailed APx555 plots shared by the designer well before Amir measured... 

 

Now though, Schiit are sending products to Amir and publishing their own AP plots (I personally value the latter more). 
 

 

 

I almost posted that you forgot to remind everyone that Schiit send Amir components now. Then you saved me at the end. 
 

So, if I have it straight, your off on this tangent because one component measured differently from what a manufacturer claimed? One component!

 

And, we still don’t know what was different from the claims vs measurements. 
 

I still think your crusade is for other reasons than keeping manufacturers honest. One product wasn’t right!

[asdf1000]

On 2/26/2021 at 11:35 AM, plissken said:

Interesting when I searched for the DCS Debussy:

 

I wonder if dCS were forum sponsors at the time he wrote about his frustrations.

 

Or if forum sponsorship came after 😄

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

I wonder if dCS were forum sponsors at the time he wrote about his frustrations.

 

Or if forum sponsorship came after 😄

I don’t get it. Are you insinuating something?

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

If Chris adds detailed measurements alongside his subjective reviews (I don't care about other people's subjective reviews. I use my own ears but I don't have an issue with people that do want to read subjective impressions) then he offers the Stereophile playbook, which I've been a fan of for a long time.  And would have my vocal support.

I have no interest in joining the old guard. 

[asdf1000]

4 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

I almost posted that you forgot to remind everyone that Schiit send Amir components now. Then you saved me at the end. 
 

So, if I have it straight, your off on this tangent because one component measured differently from what a manufacturer claimed? One component!

 

And, we still don’t know what was different from the claims vs measurements. 
 

I still think your crusade is for other reasons than keeping manufacturers honest. One product wasn’t right!

 

You asked for an example and I shared an example. Go to ASR and have a look at the numbers.

 

I'm not going to keep going with more examples (not just ASR examples, but also Stereophile too) with someone that clearly has a conflict of interest in this discussion.

 

I don't know why you kept participating after on page 7 you said you'd leave the chat and I was happy to give you the last word.

 

How in your mind this suggests "I still think your crusade is for other reasons than keeping manufacturers honest." when I am the one that politely asked you to the close topic, well this is strange and disingenous behaviour on your part.

 

You know this.

 

People can look and decide for themselves.

 

You are now the first person I will 'ignore' on this forum 😃 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

You are now the first person I will 'ignore' on this forum

For some reason I don’t believe you. Perhaps it’s your demand for voter fraud investigations or excuse me, the nearly nonexistent measurement discrepancy. 
 

If there was actually an issue here to crusade about, I’d be in your camp all the way. To me it just seems like you’re a measurement monger. That’s totally fine, just not my style. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

P.S. you keep suggesting that my conflicts of interest with advertisers has something to do with what I say. Either come up with some facts or stop the libelous bloviating.