ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[firedog]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto said:

I wouldn't either. They're intended for near field over a mixing desk, usually for engineers and producers who are already half deaf. The ones I've heard have been awfully bright and shouty, which works for mixing and raw playback, but not something I'd want to sit and relax to in my home or office. 

IME, one person's bright and shouty is another person's "accurate". To each his own.

From what I know of people who mix, they don't want something bright and shouty, they want something that lets them hear everything clearly and accurately, so that their mix will sound good on a variety of setups at the listener level.

[charlesphoto]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

IME, one person's bright and shouty is another person's "accurate". To each his own.

From what I know of people who mix, they don't want something bright and shouty, they want something that lets them hear everything clearly and accurately, so that their mix will sound good on a variety of setups at the listener level.

Of course and an important distinction to make. But overly detailed accuracy isn't always the best for home listening and can come off bright and overly aggressive, esp if like many at ASR one doesn't believe in any better than Home Depot or Amazon Basics cabling or a pi as a streamer. YMMV as in everything in audio. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

6 minutes ago, charlesphoto said:

esp if like many at ASR one doesn't believe in any better than Home Depot or Amazon Basics cabling or a pi as a streamer.

With the caveat that if you sell those things that are “better” than Home Depot cabling and a Pi and happen to run that site, that’s totally above board. Just don’t talk about them without measurements and double blind tests 😁

[Miska]

From personal experience I know very well for example how these monitors sound like:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/genelec-studio-monitor-1031a-loudspeaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer-measurements

 

You can also see in Fig.2 the resonance peak I'm talking about. And I know the sound makes patches come off my teeth, so to say...

 

Another speaker where metal dome resonance is very clearly visible in Stereophile measurements, just hit exactly 30 kHz this time:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-300-loudspeaker-measurements

 

HiFi-News measures up to 40 kHz and there those metal dome "oil can" resonances are better visible. On soft domes, those resonances are below the cross-over frequency. And with titanium/diamond and similar materials they move up to about 40 - 50 kHz range.

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, Miska said:

From personal experience I know very well for example how these monitors sound like:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/genelec-studio-monitor-1031a-loudspeaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer-measurements

 

You can also see in Fig.2 the resonance peak I'm talking about. And I know the sound makes patches come off my teeth, so to say...

 

Another speaker where metal dome resonance is very clearly visible in Stereophile measurements, just hit exactly 30 kHz this time:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-300-loudspeaker-measurements

 

HiFi-News measures up to 40 kHz and there those metal dome "oil can" resonances are better visible. On soft domes, those resonances are below the cross-over frequency. And with titanium/diamond and similar materials they move up to about 40 - 50 kHz range.

The soft dome Dynaudio Xeo 10 on my desk are lovely. 

[charlesphoto]

10 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

The soft dome Dynaudio Xeo 10 on my desk are lovely. 

I won't believe you until I see your measurements... ;)

[firedog]

29 minutes ago, Miska said:

From personal experience I know very well for example how these monitors sound like:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/genelec-studio-monitor-1031a-loudspeaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer-measurements

 

You can also see in Fig.2 the resonance peak I'm talking about. And I know the sound makes patches come off my teeth, so to say...

 

Another speaker where metal dome resonance is very clearly visible in Stereophile measurements, just hit exactly 30 kHz this time:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-300-loudspeaker-measurements

 

HiFi-News measures up to 40 kHz and there those metal dome "oil can" resonances are better visible. On soft domes, those resonances are below the cross-over frequency. And with titanium/diamond and similar materials they move up to about 40 - 50 kHz range.

J. Gordon Holt loved the Genelecs in near field listening, but not in more distant setups.

[wbh]

Hey AS/CA folks ... let's try to stay on-topic shall we ... I assume this Thread was created to comment on Amir's YT channel. Right? N'est ce pas?

Not seein' a whole lotta dat in the da past few posts. Anyway ... thankin' y'all in 'vance fer 'bservin' da rules  ;)

 

I'm out here in the Muir woods for a lil' R&R .... and while squattin' to go Numero Dos, I was thinkin' 'bout Amir and his vlog. Ya' know ... despite his dumbed-down fanbase, I gotta say that his AP555 live demos (his vids) are quite good. I always give 'em that LIKE. And, 'course, me SUBSCRIBED to his channel from day 1.

Yeah ... for that science and engineering stuff, a fella really does need live and dynamic screens (motion in time). And that's only possible in real life (classroom) or video. 

I've got the Pohlmann and Watkinson big thick textbooks sittin' on my shelf ... and they are pretty much worthless, even for basics.

Too badz ASR is da "place" it haz becomez. Hell, I caint even stick around long 'nough to leaf-wipe me bum. Dem Mods!!! 

[asdf1000]

15 hours ago, Miska said:

I just personally wouldn't buy Genelec's for music listening. Even though it's a Finnish company too. I've heard and used many of their speakers and it's just not my thing. Amps, DACs and the DSPs they have are not so great either and hard to replace with better ones given that those are active speakers.

 

8 hours ago, Miska said:

From personal experience I know very well for example how these monitors sound like:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/genelec-studio-monitor-1031a-loudspeaker-studio-monitor-1092a-powered-subwoofer-measurements

 

You can also see in Fig.2 the resonance peak I'm talking about. And I know the sound makes patches come off my teeth, so to say...

 

By going into subjective territory can you see the silly path you've taken this discussion 😃

 

The resonant peak of metal dome tweeters outside audible band makes patches come off your teeth.

 

But the metal driver Sennheiser HD800 with known resonance peak inside audible band , which you use for development work you've said, does not bother you at all? 🤔

I can't stand the HD800 for this (again inside audible band where there is a lot of musical energy...).

 

Like a dentist drill ... and this is a metal driver milli meters from the ear !

 

So many people made mods to fix this flaw.

 

You should have left it at this comment yesterday 😃:

15 hours ago, Miska said:

Good measurements don't mean that the sound would be good. But if something measures really badly it's a good way to reduce amount of gear you need to test by listening.

 

Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense. For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice...

 

But who cares what I think and like? Nobody should. Just listen to what you enjoy. I don't want to read about what others like and don't like subjectively when I can decide with my own ears.

 

Then you have people with conflicts of interests chiming in, people that are paid by manufacturers and write reviews, which just distorts discussions.

 

The coaxial KEF LS50 Meta (metal dome! 😲) that you're interested in getting will make great nearfields 😉

 

 

HD800 measured with state of the art GRAS45BC

 

 

You should have left it at your comment yesterday:

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, asdf1000 said:

You should have left it at your comment yesterday:

Two things. 
 

1. You forgot to say Schiit is sending ASR gear now. 
 

2. perhaps you should’ve taken your own advice long ago. 

[asdf1000]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Two things. 
 

1. You forgot to say Schiit is sending ASR gear now. 
 

2. perhaps you should’ve taken your own advice long ago. 

 

Any constructive comments ? Something to add value to the discussion ?

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

23 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Any constructive comments ? Something to add value to the discussion ?

 

 

In your mind, everyone should be taking your advice. Your confidence and obfuscation knows no bounds. 

[asdf1000]

50 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

In your mind, everyone should be taking your advice. Your confidence and obfuscation knows no bounds. 

 

What utter non-sense.

 

I shared an example of how silly it is to take things down the subjective route, in a discussion about measurements.

 

It went down the stupid path of 'my speakers are better than yours'. How you could see that as productive discussion, is strange.

 

If you have a constructive comment on this post above, share it. 

 

Otherwise you just look like an upset troll that's had his feelings hurt.

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

55 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

What utter non-sense.

 

I shared an example of how silly it is to take things down the subjective route, in a discussion about measurements.

 

It went down the stupid path of 'my speakers are better than yours'. How you could see that as productive discussion, is strange.

 

If you have a constructive comment on this post above, share it. 

 

Otherwise you just look like an upset troll that's had his feelings hurt.

 

 

 

Wow...

 

Hi Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle...

[asdf1000]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

Wow...

 

Hi Pot, I'd like to introduce you to Kettle...

 

You didn't understand the point of the example then...

 

[AudioDoctor]

Just now, asdf1000 said:

 

You didn't understand the point of the example then...

 

 

Are you sure?

[asdf1000]

Just now, AudioDoctor said:

 

Are you sure?

 

Yes your reply proved it.

 

 

[asdf1000]

22 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Are you sure?

 

Let me connect the dots for you, to show why 'pot calling kettle black' makes absolutely zero sense.

 

In the very same post that I say:

 

1. "Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense."

 

2. "But who cares what I think and like? Nobody should. Just listen to what you enjoy. I don't want to read about what others like and don't like subjectively when I can decide with my own ears."

 

I also deliberately write:

 

1. "I can't stand the HD800 for this (again inside audible band where there is a lot of musical energy...). Like a dentist drill ... and this is a metal driver milli meters from the ear ! " (with measurement btw)

 

2. "For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice..." (there's measurement data for this too)

 

These are thoughts I generally keep to myself (deliberately) but people started going down this path of subjective impressions before my post, while I was just talking about objective measurements.

 

The point of these 2 examples is to show how silly and unproductive it is to start sharing these subjective impressions with others and going down the 'my speakers are better than yours' and 'you don't have good speakers/headphones' which is exactly the way the thread started heading before my post.

 

So 'pot calling kettle black' makes no sense.

 

If you think the way the thread was headed was productive with that kind of subjective discussion, well each to their own I guess.

 

[Superdad]

20 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

I don't need someone else to tell me something sounds good or bad...

But I thought that was the whole purpose of ASR... 
 

20 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

...when I can simply decide that myself with my own ears.

Shhh...best not let Amir and his minions see you say that! 

 

[Just kidding a bit. I can tell from your posts that you are not painted into any one corner.]

[asdf1000]

34 minutes ago, Superdad said:

[Just kidding a bit. I can tell from your posts that you are not painted into any one corner.]

 

😃 correct. I'm still a proud Rendu owner... after all these years there still isn't anything with BOTH the slim form factor and so light that can easily be hidden out of sight AND great and easy OS support...  I mentioned that very early in this thread. Not hidden.

 

I'm also not interested in the sometimes 'circle jerk' nature of some discussions over on that forum, which seems to be happening in this thread too, with the purist subjectivists. I try to ignore that over the ASR forum. Before ASR Forum it was no different for me with the comments under Stereophile reviews on their website. I  enjoy skipping to JA's measurements.

 

I'm just interested in the technical discussion without the emotion but it seems some people have had their feelings hurt and feel the need to chime in with nonsense one liners that add no value to the discussion at hand.

 

Miska has the ability (and while you've mostly stayed out of this thread I think you can too) to have a technical discussion without the emotion. I might disagree with him on some things but because he actually makes good sense in his arguments and generally backs up his points objectively, I agree with him more than I disagree.

 

So I've enjoyed his contributions a lot here.

 

This is what I'm interested in. 

 

If someone isn't interested then that's fine but go browse a different thread. Nobody is forcing anyone to read and reply on this thread. Spare the silly one liners.

 

[Summit]

8 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

 

 

By going into subjective territory can you see the silly path you've taken this discussion 😃

 

The resonant peak of metal dome tweeters outside audible band makes patches come off your teeth.

 

But the metal driver Sennheiser HD800 with known resonance peak inside audible band , which you use for development work you've said, does not bother you at all? 🤔

I can't stand the HD800 for this (again inside audible band where there is a lot of musical energy...).

 

Like a dentist drill ... and this is a metal driver milli meters from the ear !

 

So many people made mods to fix this flaw.

 

You should have left it at this comment yesterday 😃:

 

Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense. For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice...

 

But who cares what I think and like? Nobody should. Just listen to what you enjoy. I don't want to read about what others like and don't like subjectively when I can decide with my own ears.

 

Then you have people with conflicts of interests chiming in, people that are paid by manufacturers and write reviews, which just distorts discussions.

 

The coaxial KEF LS50 Meta (metal dome! 😲) that you're interested in getting will make great nearfields 😉

 

 

HD800 measured with state of the art GRAS45BC

 

 

You should have left it at your comment yesterday:

 

 

 

We are all different I like subjective impressions of audio. That means that if someone  for example states that KEF LS/LSX 50 sounds better than Genelec 8341A' I know that we don't share the same idea about how good sound should sounds like. That' perfectly fine to like different speakers, but also good to know when other audio gear are debated.  Knowing what a person think about a few key products is fundamental for me to see if we share the same image of high fidelity.

 

Yes of course we should just listen to what we enjoy. That's not up to debate🤪. The thing is which gear could suite me and me listning room, because I don't want and can't borrow home every speaker/amp/DAC and test for myself. 

 

Can't I use measurement as a guide instead? For some gear, if they are correct made and by the same person/equipment. But even then it will tell me only some things I want to know IME/IMO.

 

Final I agree on the significant difference between inside and far outside audible band, when debating measurement of speakers. 

 

 

[asdf1000]

23 minutes ago, Summit said:

We are all different I like subjective impressions of audio. That means that if someone  for example states that KEF LS/LSX 50 sounds better than Genelec 8341A' I know that we don't share the same idea about how good sound should sounds like. That' perfectly fine to like different speakers, but also good to know when other audio gear are debated.  Knowing what a person think about a few key products is fundamental for me to see if we share the same image of high fidelity.

 

Absolutely no problem with any of that of course...  but in a thread about measurements, I would ask the subjectivists that aren't interested in measurements like ASR provide, to go start a different thread to share those impressions somewhere else. Or just go do something else...

 

I started this thread and stated I have no interest in reading about what others hear. Not by Amir, not by JA at Stereophile, not by a/the 'Computer Audiophile'.

 

Have you seen what the thread starter of 'A novel way to massively improve'  thread says and does, if someone comes into that thread talking about objective measurements?

 

So as the thread starter here, I think it's a fair and reasonable thing to ask that these subjective discussion go to a different thread.

 

27 minutes ago, Summit said:

The thing is which gear could suite me and me listning room, because I don't want and can't borrow home every speaker/amp/DAC and test for myself. 

 

I respect that 100%. I just ask that such impressions be discussed in those relevant threads. Not asking for more than that. 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Summit said:

Can't I use measurement as a guide instead? For some gear, if they are correct made and by the same person/equipment. But even then it will tell me only some things I want to know IME/IMO.

 

 

Absolutely, anyone can use measurements however they like. I just don't like the 'circle jerk' mentality that some people feel they need to chime in with, on objective discussions.

 

There are other threads to go read and participate on if this particular discussion doesn't interest you (this isn't directed at you btw - you are obviously a smart and very reasonable person to communicate with).

 

33 minutes ago, Summit said:

Final I agree on the significant difference between inside and far outside audible band, when debating measurement of speakers. 

 

Noice. There was some good discussion with Miska on this earlier in the thread, about the relevance of digital filtering images over 300 kHz ... I would personally like to see some of his measurements showing how this does actually affect distortion measurements within audible band but I do respect that he's probably done these measurements. Still would be nice to see though.

 

Thanks for your respectful and pleasant comments. Much appreciated.

 

 

[JoeWhip]

Round and round we go, where will we stop, in this case, everyone knows.

[Miska]

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

The resonant peak of metal dome tweeters outside audible band makes patches come off your teeth.

 

Yes, exactly. But inside audible band (~100 kHz as I've stated earlier). Similar feeling as from the ultrasonic teeth cleaner used by dentists which sounds just like an old modem handshake.

 

(by the way I know many people who can hear ultrasonic pest repellers for example, they can cause a lot of painful discomfort)

 

So far comparing my listening results to measurements I've concluded that the discomfort is indeed correlated with this resonance.

 

This is not different from subjective listening of digital filters and modulators, what happens above 20 kHz very much affects how they sound.

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

But the metal driver Sennheiser HD800 with known resonance peak inside audible band , which you use for development work you've said, does not bother you at all?

 

What resonance peak where? Cannot locate such in those plots. In addition the driver is plastic, not metal.

 

Here's diffuse field frequency response of my HD800 pair as provided by Sennheiser based on it's serial number:

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Going into subjectives about what we like and dislike is just non-sense.

 

It is not, it matters more than the measurements.

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

For example, in my opinion Dynaudio's garbage vertical directivity make it sub-optimal for nearfield, compared to well done coaxial (like Genelec 8341A's). For nearfield I'm not interested in hold my head in a vice...

 

I'm not using my Dynaudio floorstanders as nearfield monitors...

 

And to me, Genelec's sound shit, no matter how they measure. I cannot listen to those. And I've listened too much to those for work...

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

The coaxial KEF LS50 Meta (metal dome! 😲) that you're interested in getting will make great nearfields 😉

 

So far I've not seen the resonance in it's measurements. But I'll wait for HiFi-News to do it, since they measure up to 40 kHz while Stereophile stops at 30 kHz.

 

But I will also need to listen to the LS50 Meta before deciding if I'm going to buy it. If it has the ear piercing metal dome sound I won't buy it regardless of how it measures.

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

HD800 measured with state of the art GRAS45BC

 

Not too much off from the Harman target. If you want to look at it in traditional frequency response way, you need to apply at least apply diffuse field compensation to the response.

 

9 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

You should have left it at your comment yesterday:

 

?

 

[ShawnC]

32 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

I started this thread and stated I have no interest in reading about what others hear. Not by Amir, not by JA at Stereophile, not by a/the 'Computer Audiophile'.

I thought you started this thread to prove that Amir wasn't a woman.  If you had clearly stated what your intent of this thread was, then the results may be more to your liking.