ASR Audio Science Review forum YouTube Channel

[asdf1000]

3 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

I thought you started this thread to prove that Amir wasn't a woman. 

 

Yes and I wrote that on page 7 also, so this isn't breaking news...

 

Same post where I said the thread could be closed (as the thread starter).

 

Thanks for chiming in though...

 

 

[Miska]

7 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

The point of these 2 examples is to show how silly and unproductive it is to start sharing these subjective impressions with others and going down the 'my speakers are better than yours' and 'you don't have good speakers/headphones' which is exactly the way the thread started heading before my post.

 

It is not silly and unproductive. It is important to try to correlate listening experiences and measurements. Otherwise subjective experiences become just hands-waving.

 

[asdf1000]

1 minute ago, Miska said:

 

It is not silly and unproductive. It is important to try to correlate listening experiences and measurements. Otherwise subjective experiences become just hands-waving.

 

 

Of course it is for this thread.

 

Have you seen what the thread starter of 'A novel way to massively improve'  thread says and does, if someone comes into that thread talking about objective measurements?

 

So as the thread starter here, I think it's a fair and reasonable thing to ask that these subjective discussion go to a different thread. 

[skatbelt]

41 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Absolutely no problem with any of that of course...  but in a thread about measurements, I would ask the subjectivists that aren't interested in measurements like ASR provide, to go start a different thread to share those impressions somewhere else. Or just go do something else...

 

I started this thread and stated I have no interest in reading about what others hear. Not by Amir, not by JA at Stereophile, not by a/the 'Computer Audiophile'.

 

 

Ik think that why this fierce discussions always arise, has to do with the impression that over at ASR the goal does not seem to be to test objectively but to provide as much evidence as possible of the assumption that in the audio world there is a lot of snake oil and overpriced products. In my perception, this is often the underlying tone.

 

That said, I strongly encourage initiatives such as those of Amir / ASR, but I do expect an independent attitude and a reviewer who really studies what is being tested beforehand. And also a reviewer who clearly indicates (and puts into perspective) the shortcomings or limitations of test methods and techniques.

[ShawnC]

13 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

 

Yes and I wrote that on page 7 also, so this isn't breaking news...

 

Same post where I said the thread could be closed (as the thread starter).

 

Thanks for chiming in though...

 

 

I'm sorry page 1 for me starts with that post.  So I'm missing 6 pages.  I Keep trying to get the first 6 pages but their missing.   

[Miska]

3 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

So as the thread starter here, I think it's a fair and reasonable thing to ask that these subjective discussion go to a different thread. 

 

OK, I guess there are very few threads and places where people actually try to understand correlation between subjective listening experiences and objective measurements. Which is pretty much all about the work I do...

 

To me, searching those correlation is one of the primary reasons for doing the measurements. If your measurements don't show the differences you are hearing, maybe you are not looking at the right measurements or right place in the measurements. And adjust the measurements accordingly.

 

After 20+ years of doing this, I have a hunch how things work.

 

[asdf1000]

2 minutes ago, ShawnC said:

I'm sorry page 1 for me starts with that post.  So I'm missing 6 pages.  I Keep trying to get the first 6 pages but their missing.   

 

No worries, yes Page 1 started with that but I also brought it up again when I asked for the thread to be closed (as the thread starter). 

 

But it wasn't closed by the forum boss and the discussion ended up going in an interesting direction. I guess that's what he wanted?

[asdf1000]

15 minutes ago, Miska said:

What resonance peak where?

 

Below, as shared earlier. Nearly every measurement I've seen of HD800 with state of the art GRAS or B&K machines show the peak...

 

I know Sennheiser provide it - I had HD800 and currently have HD800S myself.

 

All 3rd party measurements I've seen show this peak had been fixed by Sennheiser with HD800S. And that the HD800 has this peak.

 

 

28 minutes ago, Miska said:

Not too much off from the Harman target. If you want to look at it in traditional frequency response way, you need to apply at least apply diffuse field compensation to the response.

 

The red curve is the diffuse field compensated response... the peak is there, as expected.

 

Oratory1990 has the same GRAS measurement rig that Mr. Harman Curve (Dr. Sean Olive) himself has...

 

 

17 minutes ago, Miska said:

In addition the driver is plastic, not metal.

 

Apologies, my error. But the plastic resonates like a mofo in the critical midrange area

 

19 minutes ago, Miska said:

I'm not using my Dynaudio floorstanders as nearfield monitors...

 

And to me, Genelec's sound shit, no matter how they measure. I cannot listen to those. And I've listened too much to those for work...

 

I wasn't referring to your Dynaudios. 

 

But if I say Dynaudio sounds shit and I would never again own those, how is the direction of such a discussion productive?

 

Such comments are clearly not productive and you know this but this is what you kicked off when you commented about not liking Genelecs sound... And you hurt my feelings a little bit !!

 

A bit like Amir hurt some other peoples feelings it seems 😃

 

21 minutes ago, Miska said:

So far I've not seen the resonance in it's measurements. But I'll wait for HiFi-News to do it, since they measure up to 40 kHz while Stereophile stops at 30 kHz.

 

But I will also need to listen to the LS50 Meta before deciding if I'm going to buy it. If it has the ear piercing metal dome sound I won't buy it regardless of how it measures.

 

Noted and fair comments of course.

 

 

[asdf1000]

42 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

OK, I guess there are very few threads and places where people actually try to understand correlation between subjective listening experiences and objective measurements. Which is pretty much all about the work I do...

 

To me, searching those correlation is one of the primary reasons for doing the measurements. If your measurements don't show the differences you are hearing, maybe you are not looking at the right measurements or right place in the measurements. And adjust the measurements accordingly.

 

After 20+ years of doing this, I have a hunch how things work.

 

 

Of course that is an interesting topic and I am happy to start a seperate thread for that.

 

Separate because some key smart people that would contribute to said topic are missing from this thread here because they want nothing to do with the title, "Audio Science Review Forum".

 

So such a discussion would be wasted in this thread here, for that reason.

 

What you are talking about deserves it's own thread without ASR in the title and doesn't even need to mention Amir at all.

 

Sound fair and reasonable?

 

Of course it does.

 

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...what about this thread? It's had some interesting/related back-and-forth:

 

[Miska]

9 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

The red curve is the diffuse field compensated response... the peak is there, as expected.

 

Looks normal headphone response to me, not sure which peak you are talking about. Headphones that have resonances that annoy me are Grado and Beyerdynamic T-series.

 

9 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Apologies, my error. But the plastic resonates like a mofo in the critical midrange area

 

I guess I'm just deaf then. I have four headphones in use. T+A Solitaire, Sennheiser HD800, Shure SRH1540 and AKG K-601. These sound fine to me.

 

Wanted to get also the newer fancy AKG model but didn't have budget at the time and then Harman shut down the Austria stuff.

 

16 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

But if I say Dynaudio sounds shit and I would never again own those, how is the direction of such a discussion productive?

 

I don't have problem with that if you think they sound bad due to some specific measurement property for example. That would be logical.

 

18 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

Such comments are clearly not productive and you know this but this is what you kicked off when you commented about not liking Genelecs sound... And you hurt my feelings a little bit !!

 

Sorry if my personal subjective experience hurts your feelings. But I also tried to provide objective reason why I think I don't like the sound. Since based on my experience there's such correlation.

 

I could also tell why I think I don't like sound of lot of things I have, when used in a certain way.

 

Long time ago I didn't understand why for example many CDs sounded bad. Now I know better.

 

20 minutes ago, asdf1000 said:

A bit like Amir hurt some other peoples feelings it seems 😃

 

At least for me, not him so much than some other people on his forum. Some of the stuff there is just illogical. Like saying product X is bad based on measurement and product Y is good based on measurements. But then on the other hand saying that nobody's gonna hear any difference anyway. So I kinda don't understand why they make such SINAD ranking and tout so much about it while at the same time they think it doesn't matter. There's a missing logic there.

 

It is even more conflicting attitude that put me off enough, when they continue telling me that "your measurements don't matter, because nobody can hear the difference" but "our measurements matter a lot, despite nobody can hear the difference".. So ehh?

 

[asdf1000]

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

At least for me, not him so much than some other people on his forum. Some of the stuff there is just illogical. Like saying product X is bad based on measurement and product Y is good based on measurements. But then on the other hand saying that nobody's gonna hear any difference anyway. So I kinda don't understand why they make such SINAD ranking and tout so much about it while at the same time they think it doesn't matter. There's a missing logic there.

 

 

All your comments noted. 

 

But regarding the part I quoted here, we've discussed this to death since many pages back. Let's not go there again and again (please!). Hopefully this makes you chuckle but I tried to google Finnish word for please and got this 😄

 

 

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

It is even more conflicting attitude that put me off enough, when they continue telling me that "your measurements don't matter, because nobody can hear the difference" but "our measurements matter a lot, despite nobody can hear the difference".. So ehh?

 

Noted and I agree the discussions there can be unhelpful too. I've said the same numerous times in this thread here, so I'm in agreement with you.

 

20 minutes ago, Miska said:

Sorry if my personal subjective experience hurts your feelings.

 

Ha, I was joking... Somebody else's subjective experience cannot hurt my feelings about a pair of the most accurate monitors on the planet (which I can adjust to taste with EQ...).

 

I must be deaf above 20 kHz but I'm personally fine with that 🙃

 

 

[mevdinc]

It's amazing how this thread started and still going strong.
I am not equipped technically to discuss the rudiment of measurements. I am a programmer and my simple logical approach would suggest that all hifi manufacturers must use decent equipment to measure their products to their satisfaction before commercially releasing them.
I also think some designers and manufacturers put more emphasis on  the actual listening tests than measurements.
 

Speaker brands such as Genelec and ATC are used in many studios by many mixing and mastering engineers.
I remember seeing a measurement of ATC 19 on ASR where the results seemed very poor and ATC speakers were dismissed as poor/bad designs on different forums including Geasrlutz. And there are many ATC users there. The speaker measured was a very old model and maybe it was defective, who knows.

At the end of the day, measurements are important to show that the products are performing to certain specification. But at the same time, we know that each designer voices their product in the way they want. In the same way that the mastering and mixing engineers produce the music that we listen to.

Our hobby is full of objective and subjective elements and it's a question of balance as to which is more important to each individual.

[Miska]

14 minutes ago, mevdinc said:

I remember seeing a measurement of ATC 19 on ASR where the results seemed very poor and ATC speakers were dismissed as poor/bad designs on different forums including Geasrlutz. And there are many ATC users there. The speaker measured was a very old model and maybe it was defective, who knows.

 

Yeah, David Gilmour for example uses ATC monitors on his Astoria studio. I've heard some of those bigger ATC monitors and to me they sound fine.

 

But from studio monitors I'm mostly inclined towards Adam Audio monitors (oh yeah, I like sound of those ribbon tweeters)... ;)

 

In addition to Elac speakers I use and their JET ribbon tweeter, I find Danish brand Audiovector interesting.

 

Swiss brand Piega also makes bunch of wider range ribbon hybrid hifi speakers I find interesting.

 

[asdf1000]

16 minutes ago, Miska said:

But from studio monitors I'm mostly inclined towards Adam Audio monitors (oh yeah, I like sound of those ribbon tweeters)... ;)

 

 

I have a pair of speakers with ESS Heil AMTs.

 

Dr Klaus Heinz (founder of Adam, now founder of HEDD Audio) knew Dr. Heil and in this interview with Darko he is sitting next to a pair of Heils I have too (video link below).

 

I love the Heil AMTs too ;-) with DSP correction... DIY project.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mevdinc]

14 minutes ago, Miska said:

 

Yeah, David Gilmour for example uses ATC monitors on his Astoria studio. I've heard some of those bigger ATC monitors and to me they sound fine.

 

But from studio monitors I'm mostly inclined towards Adam Audio monitors (oh yeah, I like sound of those ribbon tweeters)... ;)

 

In addition to Elac speakers I use and their JET ribbon tweeter, I find Danish brand Audiovector interesting.

 

Swiss brand Piega also makes bunch of wider range ribbon hybrid hifi speakers I find interesting.

 

Yes, there are many well known artists and groups using ATCs both at home and in the studio including David Gilmour, Mark Knofler, Lenny  Kravitz and others...
I did once consider buying Adams too, but I started with the ATCs way back in 1998 and still very happy to use them. We all have our favourites :)
 

[mevdinc]

I hope I am not derailing the topic but just read this article on Stereophile by Jason Victor Serinus and I wanted to share it here.
We are talking about measurements and things but it's incredible how many different ways people enjoy listening to music.
I think music touches us all in many ways and feeds our souls.

"Listening": a Video Tribute to Art Dudley
https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-video-tribute-art-dudley
 

[semente]

6 hours ago, asdf1000 said:

Absolutely no problem with any of that of course...  but in a thread about measurements, I would ask the subjectivists that aren't interested in measurements like ASR provide, to go start a different thread to share those impressions somewhere else. Or just go do something else...

That is neither clear from the thread title nor from the first post...

Besides, there’s a sub forum dedicated technical discussions in case you’ve missed it.

 

But the problem in my view is not whether people like or dislike measurements, you seem to be struggling to accept any criticism of ASR or Amir.

[KeenObserver]

I have not read this whole thread, i only skipped through parts of it.

As I understand it, from what reading I have done, the items tested on ASR are sent in for testing from private parties?

Does Amir inspect the items and confirm with the manufacturer that they are standard items in standard working order?

If I were the Catpee Company and my main competitor was the Dogpoo Company, could I send in some altered Dogpoo items for testing?

[KeenObserver]

Some testing sites test products that are sent in by the manufacturer, leading some critics to say that they are hand picked, specially tuned items.

Some testing sites buy retail stock from retailers, anonymously. This, in my way of thinking, is the fairest method.

[firedog]

10 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

I have not read this whole thread, i only skipped through parts of it.

As I understand it, from what reading I have done, the items tested on ASR are sent in for testing from private parties?

Does Amir inspect the items and confirm with the manufacturer that they are standard items in standard working order?

If I were the Catpee Company and my main competitor was the Dogpoo Company, could I send in some altered Dogpoo items for testing?

Amir accepts items sent in by consumers and also from the manufacturer. He appears to have a good idea who the senders are and which items he accepts seems to be arranged in advance with the person interested in sending it in.  He doesn't accept items from rival manufacturers.

 

In instances where there seems to be something not right with a unit, Amir will mention it in his review as a possible cause of the results,  and also generally contacts the manufacturer for reaction. I remember a Schiit piece that had an unusual result, and Amir accepted a replacement from Schiit and updated his review. Schiit also told the owner to send the unit to them and fixed it for the owner.

[The Computer Audiophile]

28 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

Some testing sites buy retail stock from retailers, anonymously. This, in my way of thinking, is the fairest method.

This is Consumer Reports style and it’s the best. But, there’s only one Consumer Reports for a reason. It’s expensive and consumers must be willing to foot the bill through subscriptions.

 

I’d love to run AS like CR, but making it work financially is just impossible. 

[KeenObserver]

Ultimately, it comes down to the fairness and integrity of the tester.

[The Computer Audiophile]

22 minutes ago, firedog said:

In instances where there seems to be something not right with a unit, Amir will mention it in his review as a possible cause of the results,  and also generally contacts the manufacturer for reaction. I remember a Schiit piece that had an unusual result, and Amir accepted a replacement from Schiit and updated his review. Schiit also told the owner to send the unit to them and fixed it for the owner.

This is gotcha journalism.
 

If there’s an issue, it makes sense to contact the manufacturer before publication rather than attempt to un-ring the bell afterward. Nobody wins with bad information. In fact, it’s worse when the site claims to be scientific and objective. I don’t think anyone believed the tabloids when they posted pictures of Bat Boy. But, a site hiding behind the term “Science” can fool many people. 

[pkane2001]

25 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

But, a site hiding behind the term “Science” can fool many people. 

It’s nice then that measurements are not subjective and can be repeated by others, especially those suspicious of the results. Someone’s faked measurements  are easy to disprove. Someone’s opinion, not so much.