Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Clockmeister]

The bottom line here chaps is simple, if it works for you stick with it.

 

For myself my test equipment uses square wave forms so does my audio equipment; a sine wave does not produce the same desirable results on my system that I like.

 

Other equipment is more suited to sine waves,  if John feels sign waves work better for the eRegen then he designed the unit and will know more about than just about anyone else so not much to debate really.

[Iving]

2 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

Other equipment is more suited to sine waves,  if John feels sign waves work better for the eRegen ...

 

I'd be very interested to know whether this can be confirmed. I don't recall seeing it ever.

 

3 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

not much to debate really.

 

I think the debate is very interesting and helps me make purchasing decisions / understand my system.

[Clockmeister]

20 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

I'd be very interested to know whether this can be confirmed. I don't recall seeing it ever.

 

Very simple to clear up, ask the the gent himself, I may have misinterpreted things 😪 

20 minutes ago, Iving said:

 

I think the debate is very interesting and helps me make purchasing decisions / understand my system.

 

Apologies, having gone through this process for almost two decades it does leave me a touch jaded at times.

[Iving]

Just now, Clockmeister said:

a touch jaded at times

 

lol hope it springs eternal from the young man's breast

[Clockmeister]

5 hours ago, Confused said:

Have you had any experience of the Habst Digital?  At one time it seemed to be the subjectively preferred cable of choice over in the "novel" thread.  (It is most definitely in the "less affordable" category though)

 

Hello Confused

 

I have to admit, not one I have the privilege of listening so I could not comment on that one sorry.

 

If you have one happy to have a listen and preform a full measurement suite on it and post the details so how it compares in the pantheon of cables no problem at all.

 

You are not so far away from ourselves just a short haul up super slab 4.

[LowMidHigh]

24 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

 

Very simple to clear up, ask the the gent himself, I may have misinterpreted things 😪 

 

Apologies, having gone through this process for almost two decades it does leave me a touch jaded at times.

 

It's been discussed and clarified many a time: the ER is meant to accept a square wave by design. The best outcome is with a low phase square wave, carried over a low attenuation cable. 

[Clockmeister]

1 minute ago, LowMidHigh said:

 

It's been discussed and clarified many a time: the ER is meant to accept a square wave by design. The best outcome is with a low phase square wave, carried over a low attenuation cable. 

 

Excellent you have cleared that up for me LMH, hence the brick wall filter for the sine wave boys!

 

As I personally do not require an e.Regen not a particular problem I have encountered so thank you for the clarification.

 

Its is appreciated

 

[MarkusBarkus]

2 hours ago, R1200CL said:

It seems people isn’t much interested in knowing what’s inside the box.

Do you have an AfterDark clock your self ?

I do not use an external clock of any brand, but I enjoy the thread.
 

I'm not sure not having a clock on my eRG negates the validity of my observation and comments to you, as I was making the point that you were suggesting AD was into some sort of deceipt, but offering only your opinion as proof. 
 

I *think* you may think if a company doesn't directly design and develop every component in its product, there is something bad going on. 
 

Companies use many components designed and manufactured by others, from enclosures to the actual components inside.

 

Silly example: companies don't usually manufacture the resistors and capacitors inside...but they may well test/measure them for internal QA before use in their products, or test boards fabbed by others.

 

A company may purchase 100 OCXO units, which have the same spec, but upon testing, some might test *better* than others. The best ones may be used in product A$$ while others may be used in product B$.

I recall some high-end audio manufacturers note this for their flagship products with ultra-precise crystals, for example.
 

The issue would be if the more expensive A$$ product used the lessor B$ component. 
 

IMO one is purchasing a finished product, and if it works as advertised and you can afford it, all is good.
 

If purchasers open a 100 dollar device and find there are only 10 dollars worth of parts, they might feel cheated, but I'm not sure that tells the entire story. A lot goes into spec-ing, procurement, assembling, etc.

 

Now, if a product does not *perform* according to the advertised specs you paid for, that's a legitimate complaint, but taking pics of PCBs and parts numbers only tells a part of the story, IMO.

[MartinT]

35 minutes ago, MarkusBarkus said:

I *think* you may think if a company doesn't directly design and develop every component in its product, there is something bad going on. 
.

.

.

A company may purchase 100 OCXO units, which have the same spec, but upon testing, some might test *better* than others. The best ones may be used in product A$$ while others may be used in product B$.

 

Exactly this.  There are countless OEM arrangements out there, from simple re-badging to module provision.  Using another design does not in any way denigrate the product if it performs to specification.

 

Performance selection and categorisation also happens, which is what I believe AfterDark are doing.

[Clockmeister]

With regard to phase noise (jitter) graphs, the one very important attribute which is often over looked by the fact I have 'x'  value on which part of the curve is the amount of spurii on the curve itself.

 

Martin T observations in relation to rf noise further up the frequency scale is valid, this can by influenced by the amount and amplitude of the spurii themselves this (imho) has as much effect on the end result as having a low phase noise.

 

Below is the plot of one of the clocks we use, you can see the minimal amount of spurii on the curve compared to many others.

 

 

 

[MasterWarzombie]

7 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Il semble que les gens ne s'intéressent pas beaucoup à savoir ce qu'il y a à l'intérieur de la boîte.

Avez-vous une horloge AfterDark vous-même?

 

J'aime voir les autres publier leurs mesures depuis AfterDark. Mine attaché. 
 

Scan 30 avril 2021 à 11.42.pdf 1,24 Mo · 24 téléchargements

edit : annulé

[MasterWarzombie]

8 hours ago, R1200CL said:

It seems people isn’t much interested in knowing what’s inside the box.

Do you have an AfterDark clock your self ?

 

I like to see others post their measurements from AfterDark. Mine attached. 
 

Scan 30 Apr 2021 at 11.42.pdf 1.24 MB · 29 downloads

Your certificate is from April 2020!
Your data is much better than that indicated on the site. they are equivalent to an emperor crown while you have the King version. very strange !!!

[Clockmeister]

I now understand why Martin T AD clock has had a positive difference after looking at the circuit and its limitations with its rail noise. The power supply is contributing a great deal imho

[Mops911]

8 hours ago, Clockmeister said:

if John feels sign waves work better for the eRegen

Dude, he never said that. He said square is the best IF the implementation is right which is hard and expensive. He said sine is easier to implement for a good value solution where cost is an objective.

[JohnSwenson]

10 hours ago, Iving said:

 

I'd be very interested to know whether this can be confirmed. I don't recall seeing it ever.

 

 

I think the debate is very interesting and helps me make purchasing decisions / understand my system.

I've always said that a very good square wave with a very good cable (low attenuation over higher frequencies) and proper impedance  will be the best. This does not mean sine waves are BAD. A really good sine wave with a well shielded cable will be better than a not so great square wave.

 

John S.

[MasterWarzombie]

On 4/30/2021 at 1:34 PM, Clockmeister said:

The bottom line here chaps is simple, if it works for you stick with it.

 

For myself my test equipment uses square wave forms so does my audio equipment; a sine wave does not produce the same desirable results on my system that I like.

 

Other equipment is more suited to sine waves,  if John feels sign waves work better for the eRegen then he designed the unit and will know more about than just about anyone else so not much to debate really.

It will be necessary that one explains to me why from now on the best for the etherregen it is the sine wave because Uptone indicated that the ER is "square wave". Besides, Afterdark was quick to make a special ER square wave version!
In fact, we take the simple consumer that I am for an idiot.

 

EDIT ! I had not read the posts including that of john just above which "puts the church in the center of the village"
However, this debate becomes complex!

[Iving]

47 minutes ago, MasterWarzombie said:

this debate becomes complex!

 

It is! Especially for non-technicians.

- Sine vs. Square clock;

- Properties of waves - oscilloscopes and interpretation;

- Properties of transmit and receive devices and how they relate to each other - and how vagaries in that relationship may be explained;

- Cables - whether they matter - how they matter;

- Filter or not (if Sine).

For argument's sake, in all things there are two approaches towards understanding:

1. Bottom Up - in which theories and explanations are derived from first principles. [nuts and bolts, mechanics, physics, electronics]

2. Top Down - in which theories and explanations are derived from the empirical testing of ideas. [If I think A and B might be related, how can I demonstrate that convincingly?]

Re Bottom Up - I am not a technician, and like to learn from reading what experts have to say. And, of course, they do not always agree - in which case I make my own mind up until something else comes along.

Re Top Down - I am most definitely a listener/audiophile with my own system - but have only one par of ears. I would love to read more listening experiences. The nearer they map to my own system the better - for obvious reasons.

[R1200CL]

21 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

Your certificate is from April 2020!
Your data is much better than that indicated on the site. they are equivalent to an emperor crown while you have the King version. very strange !!!

I agree it’s very strange. I don’t expect @AfterDark. to explain why one year old. 
Given the difference in price, and only 5 dBc away from the Eva, maybe it’s the King one should aim for. 
 

There may, or may not be an availability of already measured King clocks. But maybe potentially buyers should ask for measurements upfront. 
 

If I purchase a second King, I definitely ask for phase noise measurements up front. 
(I will need time to find out of a splitter is enough, or purchase a second one is preferable). 
 

I hooked up just an hour ago. So need some time to evaluate. Sounding good. 

[R1200CL]

On 4/30/2021 at 3:33 PM, MartinT said:

 

Exactly this.  There are countless OEM arrangements out there, from simple re-badging to module provision.  Using another design does not in any way denigrate the product if it performs to specification.

 

Performance selection and categorisation also happens, which is what I believe AfterDark are doing.

Yes, Adrian is definitely re- badging. You can purchase his clocks fairly cheap on AliExpress or eBay. 
To me it has a god value that the clock is put in box and properly (hopefully) measured. Mine is above 20 dBc compared to official data sheet. One could question that, but to my knowledge so far it’s possible for a limited percentage of a batch to obtain better numbers. Also these clocks isn’t made for audio, and may focus on other parameters as more important in data sheet. Like age. 
 

I think he will only gain being more open about what’s he actually is doing. It takes time and money to do what  he is doing, and of cause that’s an added value, he shall be paid for. 

I must say that when open my clock, I was thinking of blaming him for a fraud, but I probably more into purchasing a second clock from him, when the wallet allows 😀

Still, I won’t mind a second measurement of my clock. 

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, MasterWarzombie said:

Afterdark was quick to make a special ER square wave version!

The clock (and PCB) he use offer square out, so it didn’t take him much effort to offer this.

 

Those that has purchased the Queen should open it, and confirm this. Don’t you ever think you got a special design clock. You never did. It’s all a standard available on AliExpress. 
 

(Nothing necessary wrong with that).

 

[nichino]

23 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

The clock (and PCB) he use offer square out, so it didn’t take him much effort to offer this.

 

Those that has purchased the Queen should open it, and confirm this. Don’t you ever think you got a special design clock. You never did. It’s all a standard available on AliExpress. 
 

(Nothing necessary wrong with that).

 

Given the serious implications of your claims, I think it is only fair to @AfterDark.that you post links to the Aliexpress clocks which you allege that Adrian is using.

 

Btw as far as I can recall from the various threads, I do not think that Adrian ever claimed that his higher tier clocks have any "special design", just good old calibration and measurements to meet the minimum stated specs of each specific tier. 

[R1200CL]

3 minutes ago, nichino said:

Given the serious implications of your claims, I think it is only fair to @AfterDark.that you post links to the Aliexpress clocks which you allege that Adrian is using.

 

Btw as far as I can recall from the various threads, I do not think that Adrian ever claimed that his higher tier clocks have any "special design", just good old calibration and measurements to meet the minimum stated specs of each specific tier. 

I think you easily can do this yourself as an owner of a AfterDark clock. 

[MartinT]

Attached is my AfterDark certificate.  It appears to be several steps above a King in spec.

AfterDark Giesemann King.PDF

[PYP]

On 4/30/2021 at 2:38 AM, Clockmeister said:

What I can say cable wise (and we do not retail these cables either) is the Shunyata is one of the better cables  I have listened to. If you have the system and the speakers resolution then one of the top cables I have listened to is the absolute dream BNC. However it purchase cost outweighs may complete systems so it is excluded from this conversation.

Hello David,

 

The Shunyata clock cables are interesting.  The Delta cable looks like an ordinary cable (excellent build from the descriptions).  The Alpha cable adds the Cmode doodad (not pronounced commode!).  According to their website: "Shunyata Research has developed a CMODE filter that effectively reduces common-mode noise without introducing the sonic compression ..."  The Sigma has two CMODEs.   

 

There certainly seems to be endless ways/types of noise to reduce.  Do the doodads add something to the party?

 

Thanks.  

[MasterWarzombie]

15 minutes ago, MartinT said:

Attached is my AfterDark certificate.  It appears to be several steps above a King in spec.

AfterDark Giesemann King.PDF 22.88 kB · 4 downloads

the Kings are excellent. The certificates are dated April 2020 . Why ?Mine was from February 2021 while the serial number is older .I'm just a square queen facing her sine king. :).