Master Clock for your EtherREGEN

[Johnnydev]

35 minutes ago, MartinT said:

Attached is my AfterDark certificate.  It appears to be several steps above a King in spec.

AfterDark Giesemann King.PDF 22.88 kB · 10 downloads

And what is the Allan Deviation?

[R1200CL]

1 hour ago, MartinT said:

Attached is my AfterDark certificate.  It appears to be several steps above a King in spec.

AfterDark Giesemann King.PDF 22.88 kB · 16 downloads

And page 2 ?

 

[DarqueKnight]

3 hours ago, R1200CL said:

The clock (and PCB) he use offer square out, so it didn’t take him much effort to offer this.

 

Those that has purchased the Queen should open it, and confirm this. Don’t you ever think you got a special design clock. You never did. It’s all a standard available on AliExpress. 
 

(Nothing necessary wrong with that).

 

 

You can go to an automobile dealer and order two automobiles of the same model, with the same body style, same interior, SAME ENGINE, yet with different transmissions, different suspensions, different brakes, different wheels, different tires, and different engine tuning. It would be incorrect to say they are the same automobile, even though they share most of the same parts. The acceleration, braking, cornering, fuel economy, ride comfort, road feel, interior noise level, overall automotive performance, and PRICE will be significantly different. To the casual observer, the automobiles will appear to be the same...until they are both driven under both ordinary and demanding circumstances.

 

The stereophonic performance and build quality of my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock and BG7TBL clocks are substantially different. With regard to build quality, The AfterDark clocks are purposely built with due regard for high performance audio applications. Therefore, it is insulting to say that the AfterDark clocks are only offering something standard that is available for $100 on AliExpress. If I had found that to be true, I would have sent my Emperor Double Crown back, and I certainly would not have ordered an AfterDark Queen clock for my office system.

 

Measurements were taken of the square wave outputs of my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock and one of my BG7TBL clocks.

 

Figure 1. Test setup top level left to right: AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock, Tektronix TDS 2012 oscilloscope, Oyaide DB-510 75 ohm 1.3m clock cable, BG7TBL clock, TeraDak DC-30 linear power supply for BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 2. Overhead view of test setup.

 

Figure 3. Square wave pulse train from AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

Figure 4. Square wave pulse train from BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 5. Square wave pulse from AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

Figure 6. Square wave pulse from BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 7. Fast Fourier Transform (frequency domain) plot of AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock square wave output. The magnitude of the 10 MHz fundamental is 66 dB, 8.8 dB greater than that of the BG7TBL.

 

Figure 8. Fast Fourier Transform (frequency domain) plot of BG7TBL clock square wave output. The magnitude of the 10 MHz fundamental is 57.2 dB, 8.8 dB lower than that of the AfterDark Emperor Double Crown. However, comparing the amplitudes of the time domain square wave pulse trains (figures 3 and 4) shows that the BG7TBL clock has a much higher overall amplitude when all the noise and harmonics are added in.

 

In listening evaluations, stereophonic performance was better when the EtherREGEN was driven by the external BG7TBL clock, compared to the ER's internal Crystek clock. Both the ER and the BG7TBL were powered by linear power supplies. Stereophonic performance was further improved when the BG7TBL clock. was replaced with the Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

As I have said before, I am an audio cheapskate. I would have been thrilled if the BG7TBL was a "giant killer" and I heard very little or no significant difference between the BG7TBL and the AfterDark Emperor Double Crown. My BG7TBLs are good clocks and they provide good performance value for the money, but they are not "giant killers".

[DarqueKnight]

Measurement certificate for my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

 

DK - AD - EDC Calibration Certificate.pdf

[AfterDark.]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

I agree it’s very strange. I don’t expect @AfterDark. to explain why one year old. 
Given the difference in price, and only 5 dBc away from the Eva, maybe it’s the King one should aim for. 
 

There may, or may not be an availability of already measured King clocks. But maybe potentially buyers should ask for measurements upfront. 
 

If I purchase a second King, I definitely ask for phase noise measurements up front. 
(I will need time to find out of a splitter is enough, or purchase a second one is preferable). 
 

I hooked up just an hour ago. So need some time to evaluate. Sounding good. 

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

Certainly, we are considering to offer the phase noise measurement upfront if customer would like to know, we have different batches, some better specification on phase noise and Allan Derivation. 

 

Love to hear the King is sounding good, they are excellent choices vs price. The batch is limited production, so you are wise to choose this grade. I know you are very details mind when compared different grades. 

 

Have a nice day and lets join the burn in party.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[AfterDark.]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

Yes, Adrian is definitely re- badging. You can purchase his clocks fairly cheap on AliExpress or eBay. 
To me it has a god value that the clock is put in box and properly (hopefully) measured. Mine is above 20 dBc compared to official data sheet. One could question that, but to my knowledge so far it’s possible for a limited percentage of a batch to obtain better numbers. Also these clocks isn’t made for audio, and may focus on other parameters as more important in data sheet. Like age. 
 

I think he will only gain being more open about what’s he actually is doing. It takes time and money to do what  he is doing, and of cause that’s an added value, he shall be paid for. 

I must say that when open my clock, I was thinking of blaming him for a fraud, but I probably more into purchasing a second clock from him, when the wallet allows 😀

Still, I won’t mind a second measurement of my clock. 

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

This Giesemann Clock is specially selected grade, we burn in all the OCXO for 35days before performing testing and tuning, we selected from batch of 200units OCXO units every month. The very best will be use for our range of products. We ensure every customers will receive the state of art product from us.

 

So, what about, we have some unusable or non-performs grade? This will goes to secondary market and factory will sold them at residue price on AliExpress or eBay accordingly. 

 

The measurement of Phase Noise and Allan Derivation will provide the true indicator on performance of OCXO, and tuning and hand build of Giesemann Clock for audio application is really give the amazing results for audiophiles. 

 

Have a nice weekend.

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark.

[AfterDark.]

9 hours ago, R1200CL said:

The clock (and PCB) he use offer square out, so it didn’t take him much effort to offer this.

 

Those that has purchased the Queen should open it, and confirm this. Don’t you ever think you got a special design clock. You never did. It’s all a standard available on AliExpress. 
 

(Nothing necessary wrong with that).

 

 

Hi! R1200CL,

 

We have range of product which can sources from OCXO vendor, so we can get the latest product or parts direct from factory. The Queen square wave is purchase from one of the leading OCXO factory which is converting sine from square wave inside the OCXO module, so there is no convertor outside the OCXO, we choose this approach, as it will gives better performance, so we can implement easily for all EtherREGEN customers. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

[AfterDark.]

6 hours ago, DarqueKnight said:

 

You can go to an automobile dealer and order two automobiles of the same model, with the same body style, same interior, SAME ENGINE, yet with different transmissions, different suspensions, different brakes, different wheels, different tires, and different engine tuning. It would be incorrect to say they are the same automobile, even though they share most of the same parts. The acceleration, braking, cornering, fuel economy, ride comfort, road feel, interior noise level, overall automotive performance, and PRICE will be significantly different. To the casual observer, the automobiles will appear to be the same...until they are both driven under both ordinary and demanding circumstances.

 

The stereophonic performance and build quality of my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock and BG7TBL clocks are substantially different. With regard to build quality, The AfterDark clocks are purposely built with due regard for high performance audio applications. Therefore, it is insulting to say that the AfterDark clocks are only offering something standard that is available for $100 on AliExpress. If I had found that to be true, I would have sent my Emperor Double Crown back, and I certainly would not have ordered an AfterDark Queen clock for my office system.

 

Measurements were taken of the square wave outputs of my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock and one of my BG7TBL clocks.

 

Figure 1. Test setup top level left to right: AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock, Tektronix TDS 2012 oscilloscope, Oyaide DB-510 75 ohm 1.3m clock cable, BG7TBL clock, TeraDak DC-30 linear power supply for BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 2. Overhead view of test setup.

 

Figure 3. Square wave pulse train from AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

Figure 4. Square wave pulse train from BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 5. Square wave pulse from AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

Figure 6. Square wave pulse from BG7TBL clock.

 

Figure 7. Fast Fourier Transform (frequency domain) plot of AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock square wave output. The magnitude of the 10 MHz fundamental is 66 dB, 8.8 dB greater than that of the BG7TBL.

 

Figure 8. Fast Fourier Transform (frequency domain) plot of BG7TBL clock square wave output. The magnitude of the 10 MHz fundamental is 57.2 dB, 8.8 dB lower than that of the AfterDark Emperor Double Crown. However, comparing the amplitudes of the time domain square wave pulse trains (figures 3 and 4) shows that the BG7TBL clock has a much higher overall amplitude when all the noise and harmonics are added in.

 

In listening evaluations, stereophonic performance was better when the EtherREGEN was driven by the external BG7TBL clock, compared to the ER's internal Crystek clock. Both the ER and the BG7TBL were powered by linear power supplies. Stereophonic performance was further improved when the BG7TBL clock. was replaced with the Emperor Double Crown clock.

 

As I have said before, I am an audio cheapskate. I would have been thrilled if the BG7TBL was a "giant killer" and I heard very little or no significant difference between the BG7TBL and the AfterDark Emperor Double Crown. My BG7TBLs are good clocks and they provide good performance value for the money, but they are not "giant killers".

 

Hi! DarqueKnight,

 

The Emperor Double Crown Triple Version is customised design and very limited supply every month. So, we are quite confident the performance will be impressed. We would like to share the good feed we just received from latest customer using EDC. 

 

We just released a new clock cable, would you mind to performance review for us? I am quite happy to provide a demo unit for you to performs real listening testing. 

 

 

Have a nice weekend. 

 

Best Regards,

Adrian

AfterDark. 

 

[DarqueKnight]

23 minutes ago, AfterDark. said:

 

Hi! DarqueKnight,

 

We just released a new clock cable, would you mind to performance review for us? I am quite happy to provide a demo unit for you to performs real listening testing. 

 

 

Of course!

[R1200CL]

@Superdad or @JohnSwenson

I’m using the Cybershaft splitter with Mini-Circuits to feed both the EtherRegen as well as my SU-2 from the very nice AfterDark clock I’ve got. The King has been powered with both LPS-1.2 and dual LPS-1 in series. 

 

However the EtherRegen stops working after a few minutes in this setup. So I need to pull power cable quite often. Setting it back to internal clock is OK. Or removing the splitter I think. 
 

Do you have an explanation to this behavior ?

[Superdad]

26 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

However the EtherRegen stops working after a few minutes in this setup. So I need to pull power cable quite often. Setting it back to internal clock is OK. Or removing the splitter I think.

Must be something about either the splitter, interaction with the SU-2, or just a slight cable problem.  When run from an external clock EtherREGEN does not tolerate even the most brief hiccup in the clock.  That is what is happening and that is why you need to repower.  

Work on your set up a bit and you will likely cure the issue.

[ambre]

34 minutes ago, R1200CL said:

@Superdad or @JohnSwenson

I’m using the Cybershaft splitter with Mini-Circuits to feed both the EtherRegen as well as my SU-2 from the very nice AfterDark clock I’ve got. The King has been powered with both LPS-1.2 and dual LPS-1 in series. 

 

However the EtherRegen stops working after a few minutes in this setup. So I need to pull power cable quite often. Setting it back to internal clock is OK. Or removing the splitter I think. 
 

Do you have an explanation to this behavior ?

Do you use equal 50 Ohm Clock cables delivered by Afterdark?

[Mops911]

On 5/1/2021 at 3:22 PM, DarqueKnight said:

Measurement certificate for my AfterDark Giesemann Emperor Double Crown clock.

I have problems reading these plots

 

to me it looks -119.5dB at 1 and -132dB at 10....how to read/see -143?

[DarqueKnight]

28 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

I have problems reading these plots

 

to me it looks -119.5dB at 1 and -132dB at 10....how to read/see -143?

The plot is a logarithmic scale on the horizontal axis, where every division is a power of 10.

At the far left, we have 10^0 = 1 Hz

The next division is 10^1 =10 Hz

There are spuriae (spikes) at 10 Hz which obsure the measurement because the descending curved line is "interrupted". You have to visualize, or draw, a continuous curved line that has been interrupted by the spuriae. You can then see that the continuous curve intersects the 10 Hz division at about -143 dBc/Hz

 

[R1200CL]

4 hours ago, ambre said:

Do you use equal 50 Ohm Clock cables delivered by Afterdark?

No, I will try that. 

[Mops911]

23 hours ago, DarqueKnight said:

about -143 dBc/Hz

thanks @DarqueKnight

 

My problem was actually not reading the graph but interpreting it correctly. How would I know that a line which consist of constant "spuriae" can be interpreted in a best case way ;-) Are the spuriae measurement artifacts? Or is there a more serious problem around 10Hz where the performance has an issue due to power supply, vibrations or other problems...

[DarqueKnight]

28 minutes ago, Mops911 said:

thanks @DarqueKnight

 

My problem was actually not reading the graph but interpreting it correctly. How would I know that a line which consist of constant "spuriae" can be interpreted in a best case way ;-) Are the spuriae measurement artifacts? Or is there a more serious problem around 10Hz where the performance has an issue due to power supply, vibrations or other problems...

 

A detailed explanation can be found here:

 

https://www.silabs.com/community/blog.entry.html/2018/01/29/timing_101_6_thec-rCpu

 

https://www.silabs.com/community/blog.entry.html/2018/02/26/timing_101_the_case-7BtO

[Clockmeister]

7 hours ago, Mops911 said:

thanks @DarqueKnight

 

My problem was actually not reading the graph but interpreting it correctly. How would I know that a line which consist of constant "spuriae" can be interpreted in a best case way ;-) Are the spuriae measurement artifacts? Or is there a more serious problem around 10Hz where the performance has an issue due to power supply, vibrations or other problems...

A good observation Mops

 

One which we will be delving into in great depth in coming weeks.

 

Going to be explaining and producing information on how power rail noise, harmonic content, shot, Johnson noise crap programming code, incorrectly designed transmission lines, poor circuit board layout all contribute to what you see on that curve and how it effects then end result.

 

We also have the ability to de embed the various elements of the whole so we can see the effects of a noisy power rail, via a real time spectral analysis simultaneously with time/frequency plots

 

We may also organise a comparison between the clocks with regard to measurements then a real listening session.

 

Time to de BS this subject 

 

 

[Iving]

23 minutes ago, Clockmeister said:

 a comparison between the clocks with regard to measurements then a real listening session

 

wow

any clues as to line-ups - both clocks and listeners

should be most educational!

 

edit: if the design/procedure is amenable, i might be able to help with some basic stats - unlikely to be an authoritative study without substantial n etc - but legitimate stats - and some better than none

[Rasputin]

So I got the minicircits filter today 75 ohm. Tried it on etheregen, then on the chiana clock using sine wave. THe BNC is from ghentaudio Belden.  Well, it sucked the life out of the sound.  it got sterile and dead.  Connected the BNC from the square wave to etheregen, better than with the filter, but without the china clock etheregen sounds best.  The best result with the china clock I had - square wave into etheregen with an acrolinc very expensive bnc cable.  That combinatin was quite better than eitheregen alone. 

 

This is my experiment:) and I'm not going the afterdark road..

[jean-michel6]

On 5/5/2021 at 9:33 AM, Clockmeister said:

A good observation Mops

 

One which we will be delving into in great depth in coming weeks.

 

Any update . Looking forward to hear from you ! 

[LewinskiH01]

Does anybody know/measured if the Ghent E07 Belden 1694A BNC 75Ω Coax Cable is a genuine 75 Ohm, good cable for BG7BTL?

[Superdad]

46 minutes ago, LewinskiH01 said:

Does anybody know/measured if the Ghent E07 Belden 1694A BNC 75Ω Coax Cable is a genuine 75 Ohm, good cable for BG7BTL?

 

If you follow our guidelines--especially when it comes to the BG7TBL clock--then you really don't need to worry about the impedance of that cable.

a) Do not use the square wave output of the BG7TBL--it is lousy. Use the sine wave output.

 

b) With sine wave clock you do not need to be concerned with clock/cable/device impedance matching.

 

c) Get the Mini-Circuits 11MHz low-pass filter we recommend and put that right at the BNC input of the EtherREGEN.

(https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-10.7%2B or

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/mini-circuits-blp-10-7-low-pass-filter-for-giesemann-clock-group-buy-for-audiophilestyle-com)

 

Read:

 

[roman410]

1 hour ago, Superdad said:

 

If you follow our guidelines--especially when it comes to the BG7TBL clock--then you really don't need to worry about the impedance of that cable.

a) Do not use the square wave output of the BG7TBL--it is lousy. Use the sine wave output.

 

b) With sine wave clock you do not need to be concerned with clock/cable/device impedance matching.

 

c) Get the Mini-Circuits 11MHz low-pass filter we recommend and put that right at the BNC input of the EtherREGEN.

(https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-10.7%2B or

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/mini-circuits-blp-10-7-low-pass-filter-for-giesemann-clock-group-buy-for-audiophilestyle-com)

 

Read:

 

But if your BG7TBL clock have only squarewave output where from my experience clock cables still matter I recommend for you this clock cable https://www.amazon.com/Laird-Digital-Cinema-4794R-B-B-003-Assembly/dp/B01MTOKUFI.  it is made from very good Belden 4794R bulk wire.

 

I compare Belden 4794R to another amazon available clock cable https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N6XL1XW/ref=twister_B01MUH69P1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1   what a lot people recommended and found Belden sounding much better.

 

I like Belden 1694A RCA terminated on S/PDIF position but how this type of coaxial sounding like clock cable I do not have idea.

 

 

[LewinskiH01]

2 hours ago, Superdad said:

 

If you follow our guidelines--especially when it comes to the BG7TBL clock--then you really don't need to worry about the impedance of that cable.

a) Do not use the square wave output of the BG7TBL--it is lousy. Use the sine wave output.

 

b) With sine wave clock you do not need to be concerned with clock/cable/device impedance matching.

 

c) Get the Mini-Circuits 11MHz low-pass filter we recommend and put that right at the BNC input of the EtherREGEN.

(https://www.minicircuits.com/WebStore/dashboard.html?model=BLP-10.7%2B or

https://www.adark.co/collections/project-giesemann-ocxo/products/mini-circuits-blp-10-7-low-pass-filter-for-giesemann-clock-group-buy-for-audiophilestyle-com)

 

Read:

 

 

yes, I've read the paper and followed the comments about minicircuits. Unfortunately some weeks before John published the paper I had purchased the BG7BTL with square waves only . My recollection is DarqueKnight measured the BG7BTL square waves with different 75ohm cables and one that came with a unit (a DCS?) measured well despite being cheap. Some have reported good results with BG7BTL square waves, so I'm checking in Ghent makes suitable cables as I will be ordering a couple other cables from them.