Why do most audiophile prefer passive speakers?

[erasergate]

May I know why ? 

 

In relation to this, I have more questions.

 

- It seem to me that an active speakers is more convenient ?

- Can i still put powered speakers on AMP/DAC ?

- there are speakers with built in amp/dac , will the external amp/dac override it ? add? or vice versa?

[Speedskater]

It's an audiophile tradition to switch and swap things. So with active speakers, they get locked out of this old practice. Plus they already have amplifiers (maybe several amplifiers).

But now with DSP crossovers better active speakers can be made at any price point than speaker & amplifier combinations.

[DuckToller]

- depending on your personal situation - YES, MAYBE
- Powered speaker without DSP (digital sound processing) in the digital domain may allow the use of analogue input without altering the signal
- no, but you may experience differences in sq due to better digital-analogue conversion, better filters, and  some ADC in the active speakers. You may have to deal then with more than one conversion of the signal. Using speakers without DSP may solve that problem, but can inherit others.

As in all hobbies, there is no unique way to to things ... and you may always face trade offs ...
In general, you trade the advantage of haveing a choice for amplification against an eventually more favorable design concept when going active. But .. it depends, i.e.  many people like the Kiii actives, while other prefer the Dutch & Dutch to them. The amplification of the D&D appears to be lesser (afaik) but ....

When you have a bigger budget to spend and no limitation in acoustic space, you may want to have separate units doing different tasks, as you can mod your system more comfortably by exchanging one unit at a time. Hence then you may have other factors added to the system, like cables and re-clockers or fibre-optics modules. That might work very well for you until you arrive being tired about box swapping  A good reason to separate amplifier from speakers could be for example the need for some advanced ROOM eq, which is usually applied before the signal leaves the amplification.

For enjoying some "good" audio reproduction , you need to consider the follwing factors: BUDGET, source/signal, signal path, transducers, ROOM.
At a certain level, you begin to have diminishing returns on your hobby investments. Depends on yourself to find out, when that starts.
One rule of thumb for some is: "Everything counts". Others could be: "Shortest path wins" or "straight wire with gain" " Blue lights are imperative"
Have fun!
 

 

[Richard Dale]

1 hour ago, erasergate said:

May I know why ? 

 

In relation to this, I have more questions.

 

- It seem to me that an active speakers is more convenient ?

- Can i still put powered speakers on AMP/DAC ?

- there are speakers with built in amp/dac , will the external amp/dac override it ? add? or vice versa?

Active speakers have built in amplifiers and so there is no reason to have another one.
 

Audiophiles don’t use active speakers for mainly historical reasons. They are more attractive now we have class D amplifiers, and they can be all digital - that is what has changed in the last ten years.

 

These are the rules and reasons I followed when creating my KEF LS50 wireless based active system. You want active speakers with built in DACs and DSP as well as amplifiers, and ideally a streamer too. Then a pair of active subwoofers are a more cost effective way to get high quality bass than large floor standing speakers. You should spend up to about the same amount of money on acoustic treatment for the room as you spend on the speakers, unless the speakers are really expensive.

[firedog]

2 hours ago, erasergate said:

May I know why ? 

 

In relation to this, I have more questions.

 

- It seem to me that an active speakers is more convenient ?

- Can i still put powered speakers on AMP/DAC ?

- there are speakers with built in amp/dac , will the external amp/dac override it ? add? or vice versa?

Traditionally, audiophiles like to play with boxes and (usually mistakenly) think they can play mix and match and come up with a better combination of amp/dac/speaker than the designer of a speaker with the electronics built in. But quality actives will almost always sound better than a passive version of the same speaker with a traditional amp. That's becuase the designer has maximized the amp/speaker combo so that the amp matches the speaker as well as possible. They are also usually a better buy on the dollars/SQ scale. Less boxes=more economical build for a given level of SQ. 

 

If you especially like or already have a very good passive only speaker model, it doesn't fit the active/powered path and that's a deal breaker for many. And for some audiophiles, playing around and switching components is part of the fun of the hobby. 

 

Audiophiles also like to upgrade gradually, one component at a time. If all your electronics are in the speaker box, you can't do this. However, today there are so many good actives available at all price points that you could start with something modest and climb the ladder to more expensive and better sounding models as you go. Dynaudio is a good example of this-a whole line of actives. 

 

1)Yes, until-if they need repair.

2) Speakers with built in amp, cannot be connected to another power amp - only a preamp or other analog line source. You can use an external DAC as your source. 

3) If the speakers also have a built in DAC, they will take either a digital source, or/also take an analog source and

then digitize it and feed it to the internal DAC. With good actives you are very unlikely to improve performance using outside boxes, as they've already been performance optimized. You might color the sound in a way you like, though. For instance, you could feed the actives from a tube based source if you like the sound of tubes.  Or from a specific DAC that you love the sound of. 

There are also those who use a turntable and feed the analog output to their actives. With the better ones, there is little or no downside to this, as the AD/DA conversion is very high quality, and the result still sounds like vinyl. 

[bluesman]

Why do most audiophile prefer passive speakers?

Hoping to offend as few as possible, I think it’s because they don’t know any better.  As long as they don’t require more from you than you’re willing to devote to them and they deliver what you need, the only thing that matters is how they sound.  
 

Having said that, many actives that can sound great on their own terms impose unacceptable restrictions like limited input options or restricted playback formats.  If you love your USB DAC, you don’t want active speakers whose only digital inputs are optical.  Many decent powered speakers have digital inputs, but their onboard electronics will only play at or below Redbook.  Powered speakers need power - so there are two more relatively thick cables to route and hide.  A fair number of actives have no grilles, which made me hesitate to put any where they’re at all likely to get whacked or even just sprayed with Pledge.

And many are best described as unattractive in appearance.  I tried a pair of small black powered monitors on the back wall of our living room, and they looked so bad I didn’t even wait for my wife to see them - they looked terrible there.  I’ll buy a pair of white A2s if I ever find a decent sale on them (no, I don’t really need another pair of speakers - I only have half of what I have to test, review, and report on new ideas and experiences).

[BlueDL]

As has been pointed out above, there is quite a good choice in actives available nowadays. I hope to go for actives in the future. I need to find an aesthetically acceptable set of floorstanders in order to comply with the ‘wife acceptance factor’ rules in our house (as our lounge doubles as my listening room, unfortunately).
I am eyeing up some ex-demo ATC SCM40A, but they may be too bassy for my room size. A home demo would be a must before parting with that kind of cash.

I think keeping the DAC outside of the speakers does at least allow a greater degree of future-proofing to feed any urge for upgrades or tinkering.

[Kal Rubinson]

6 hours ago, bluesman said:

Hoping to offend as few as possible, I think it’s because they don’t know any better.  

And they don't understand the advantages or the implementations.

[GregWormald]

I agree with Kal.

 

BTW I use the following definitions:

Passive speaker=no built-in/standard power. If there is a crossover it is also passive.

Active speaker=built-in/standard power. If there is a crossover it is also active i.e. each driver is individually driven with its specific required signal, which is produced in an individual amplifier; or occasionally in a separate pre-amplifier stage which feeds the individual amplifier.

Powered speaker=built-in/standard power. If there is a crossover it is passive.

 

I've been a hi-fi aficionado for more than 60 years and have been tempted by actives a couple of times but was never able to have an extensive preview and the costs ($$$$$) were beyond my means. A few years ago I was able to have a long audition of a set that were in my price range, and they were better than any other speaker I listened to at that time. So I bought them.

 

4 way speakers (drivers=hi, mid, mid-bass, 4 bass), 4 active crossovers in each box with multiple room/preference adjustments, all analog implementation, 650 watts/channel, separate power supply box, current drive.

 

 

 

[erasergate]

I'm learning a lot from you guys.

 

For some reason, i still prefer forums over youtube. Coz here, you can ask questions with very good answer.

[AudioDoctor]

I don't have anything against powered speakers, I just really like the sound of my SET tube amp...

[erasergate]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

I don't have anything against powered speakers, I just really like the sound of my SET tube amp...

 

Agree... hope I can have a setup like yours in the future.

[4est]

I think Audio Doctor pretty much nailed it. I have components that I already like, and speakers that I love that just aren't made with built in amps. If I were looking for a set it up and forget it system, I might consider active speakers.

[Speedskater]

12 hours ago, AudioDoctor said:

I don't have anything against powered speakers, I just really like the sound of my SET tube amp...

Well SET tube amplifiers and their speakers are a separate bread of animal. While audiophiles enjoy their special sound, they don't meet the definition of accurate hi-fi audio.

[Kal Rubinson]

15 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Well SET tube amplifiers and their speakers are a separate bread of animal. While audiophiles enjoy their special sound, they don't meet the definition of accurate hi-fi audio.

Uh-oh.  Tread carefully.  Most of audiophilia is about preference (which is indisputable) and not about accuracy. 🙃

[Priaptor]

On 5/13/2020 at 6:25 PM, Kal Rubinson said:

And they don't understand the advantages or the implementations.

Kai,

Very true.

 

As an old audiophile I am that person that you and others describe and I don't understand because in my situation and in the case of many, it's just too much of a pain in the rear end to compare, especially on some of the selected equipment we choose to own. Tough to teach old dogs new tricks.

 

My dad may he RIP would always buy a Buick. I would ask why don't you look an Oldsmobile, etc. "Because I like Buick". 

 

Many of us older "audiophiles" just go with the flow of "components" as we are most comfortable with that. 

[AudioDoctor]

45 minutes ago, Speedskater said:

Well SET tube amplifiers and their speakers are a separate bread of animal. While audiophiles enjoy their special sound, they don't meet the definition of accurate hi-fi audio.

 

How dare I enjoy something eh?

[firedog]

28 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

How dare I enjoy something eh?

Chutzpah. You should be locked up.

[kumakuma]

On 5/13/2020 at 5:18 PM, GregWormald said:

 

I've been a hi-fi aficionado for more than 60 years and have been tempted by actives a couple of times but was never able to have an extensive preview and the costs ($$$$$) were beyond my means. A few years ago I was able to have a long audition of a set that were in my price range, and they were better than any other speaker I listened to at that time. So I bought them.

 

4 way speakers (drivers=hi, mid, mid-bass, 4 bass), 4 active crossovers in each box with multiple room/preference adjustments, all analog implementation, 650 watts/channel, separate power supply box, current drive.

 

 

What did you buy?

[Speedskater]

1 hour ago, Kal Rubinson said:

Uh-oh.  Tread carefully.  Most of audiophilia is about preference (which is indisputable) and not about accuracy. 🙃

If only audiophiles would write "I prefer this over that" rather than "this is better than that", most endless threads would disappear.

* * * * * * * * * * *

Thinking about it further, that won't work. They will still write about unheard sound differences.

[Norton]

I don’t think it’s got anything to do with audiophiles making uninformed choices or just enjoying box swapping etc etc, but rather that active speakers simply haven’t been that that common in  bricks and mortar HiFI stores apart from offerings from Linn or ATC that will be out of many’s price range.  Thus if you’ve already got a legacy passive system, it’s a big step to ditch both amps and speakers just because active alternatives  are available.
 

While they might be convenient in the studio, I’m also far from convinced that active speakers are some kind of categorical magic bullet.

[semente]

51 minutes ago, Norton said:

active speakers simply haven’t been that that common in  bricks and mortar HiFI stores apart

 

Also a system made of separate components is easier and cheaper to upgrade.

 

Good actives are expensive.

 

Most actives are professional tools.

 

Smaller pro-actives have limited low-frequency extension, must be used with subs and they're designed for nearfield listening (but so are mini-standmounts).

 

Pro actives are pedestrian-looking rugged-black things. Ugly.

Most pro actives will not flatter bad recordings, cheaper ones are downright harsh-sounding.

 

Most pro actives don't have grills nor dedicated stands.

 

Actives require a preamplifier.

 

Pro actives use connections that are less common in domestic equipment.

[Kal Rubinson]

3 hours ago, Norton said:

I don’t think it’s got anything to do with audiophiles making uninformed choices or just enjoying box swapping etc etc, but rather that active speakers simply haven’t been that that common in  bricks and mortar HiFI stores apart from offerings from Linn or ATC that will be out of many’s price range

1.  There are too few brick-and-mortar stores and they tend to be as technologically conservative as most audiophiles.  No surprise there.

2.  Active speakers such as Linn and ATC are just as old-hat as the passive loudspeakers on which they are based.  That includes many so-called "pro actives."

3.  The real dividing line is between all these and the new designs with DSP and cabinets focussed on controlling dispersion.  They are the next wave and some are already here.

[jcbenten]

When I bought my Linn system, oh so many years ago, I wanted an active system.  ATC was too expensive (for me), PMC unobtainable, and the Paradigm Active40 seemed to be discontinued as soon as it was released.  I was really interested in the Active 40s but not obtainable.  The Linn and Naim active systems are a bit different where they mount the crossovers in another box or in the amps so not really reducing system size.  I have read where this xover mounting in external boxes can be done with numerous speakers.  I went with Linn as I liked the sound and I could go Aktiv if I desired.  I should have when upgraded with the 2250 amp a few years later.  Now I am not sure I want to sink money into a 20+ year old system.

 

Nowadays the active systems are obtainable.  While the Kiis and D&Ds are a bit rich for me, but if my system crashed tomorrow, I would look at the Dynaudio Xeo line.  May not have all the DSP the higher cost alternatives but I think I would be just fine.

[GregWormald]

12 hours ago, kumakuma said:

 

What did you buy?

SGR CX4F

 

The story—

I first became interested in going active when I heard the active upgrade for my Linn Kabers, but the price of the active crossovers and 3 Linn amps (LK100?) made that impossible for me.

 

When I went listening to replace the Kabers I was seduced by the SGR CX4F Mk 1 speakers made in Melbourne. For an audition I flew to Melbourne, was picked up at the airport, given run of the designer's/manufacturer's family home (and demonstration lounge), fed homemade snacks, taken to lunch, joined them for a family dinner, shown the factory, got to play with unmounted drivers and their boxes, and then was returned to the airport. When I decided to buy (I was almost certain after 15! minutes, but stayed for the rest of the day😀 enjoying the hospitality and the music) they refunded my air fare. At the time the active speakers were A$10,000. A short few years later the upgrade to the Mark 2 became available—which included a couple of new drivers, the current drive amplifier system, transport and wooden shipping crates. A$4,500.

 

I can't see me upgrading again—unless the MT3.2 gets current drive! (No! Please don't do it, I probably can't afford it.)

 

They also look good. (Mine are rosewood, the front panel is leather.)

 

 

SGR's web page for CX4F here.