Why do most audiophile prefer passive speakers?

[Lone Mountain Audio]

On 5/16/2020 at 5:21 AM, Kal Rubinson said:

No DSP.  Old school.  Not what I would associate with modern acoustic design.

 

HI Kal

Is DSP really the sign of modern acoustic design?  Active has nothing to do with DSP or Class D or anything like that.  Its about trying to create a minimum phase loudspeaker for lower phase error and less distortion as a by product.

 

I am sure someday the idea of putting amps BEFORE a giant, lossy coils of copper in a passive crossover will be perceived as so old fashioned.  It is the same way we've been doing it since the 1930s or before!   Sort of a parallel between a combustion engine on a transmission to an axle to drive the wheels (lots of losses and problems created by all the parts between power and wheel) instead of a electric motor directly on the wheel.   Putting many feet of copper in line between the amp and the speaker is not ideal -you cannot control phase.  You lose dampening factor.  You lose a significant percentage of power in the cable itself, especially on runs over 3 feet.  Many other aspects of the speaker performance are better served by designing the exact amp the driver needs and hook it to the driver with 6 inches of wire, then match that to the other amps and drivers in the system so the entire 3 way system has proper balance (you aren't clipping woofers before tweeters, etc).  If I put the exact same speaker in passive form next to an active version, using the same topology and devices in the passive amp so it has the same sonic signature as the active amp packs inside the speakers, the performance differences are striking.  Imaging, precision, detail, dynamics are all improved dramatically.  Anyone can hear it.  Its a way larger difference than the difference fuses or power cords or many other items make.  And in the case of the company I work with, ATC does NOT use DSP or Class D or any EQ inside for "room correction".  The problem with DSP room correction is you are changing the direct sound of the speaker based on reflected sound in the room.  The direct sound isn't wrong- its the reflected sound that's got all the error when added to the direct sound.  SO onw would think the solution is to focus on improving the reflected sound (your room) and not changing this expensive speaker you just bought because its "wrong".   Obviously there are many benefits to Room Correction as it can improve things subjectively especially when you cannot change your room, but its not ideal.  Don't fix what is right based on what is broken.

 

The only thing you cannot experiment with is amplifiers, as active so lowers the distortion and improves clarity that all the things in front of the speaker become even more important.  The preamp (like that tube sound?), the turntable and cartridge, the cabling, the DAC and streamer are all even more audible as individual devices that have their own character.  I think active INCREASES your hobby as you'll change the front end WAY more with active.

 

Brad  

 

   

[Kal Rubinson]

5 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

I could go on but these are probably the big reasons active is better- regardless of brand or design philosophy.  The two leaders in active have been Genelec and ATC, both began doing it this way in the early 80s and have not stopped.  Unlike Genelec, ATC does make passive versions of the speakers available for those that insist and two levels of performance in active: standard (19A through150A  and fully discrete (SE50 and SE100).  The discrete does indeed sound better.

What is the difference between standard active and fully discrete active? 

[Kal Rubinson]

4 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

And in the case of the company I work with, ATC does NOT use DSP or Class D or any EQ inside for "room correction".  The problem with DSP room correction is you are changing the direct sound of the speaker based on reflected sound in the room. 

I did not say anything about room correction, iirc.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

8 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

What is the difference between standard active and fully discrete active? 

 

The standard active uses some output devices in an Integrated Circuit.   A discrete design as separate output devices that can be matched and driven with more current.  I am not an electronic designer so I always think of it as discrete is the old fashioned way of doing it, and IC's is the newer way.   I'm not sure that's an ideal discription for you or what you wanted to know.

 

Brad

[Lone Mountain Audio]

13 minutes ago, Kal Rubinson said:

I did not say anything about room correction, iirc.

No you didn't, sorry to infer that.  Earlier posts about active linked it heavily to DSP and Class D, which are unrelated to active, so I was responding in broader terms.  Id love for you to A/B an active and passive side by side.  Its quite eye opening (or I should say ear opening).

 

Brad 

[Kal Rubinson]

1 hour ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

The standard active uses some output devices in an Integrated Circuit.   A discrete design as separate output devices that can be matched and driven with more current.  I am not an electronic designer so I always think of it as discrete is the old fashioned way of doing it, and IC's is the newer way.   I'm not sure that's an ideal discription for you or what you wanted to know.

No, I understand that clearly as it is the distinction between discrete semiconductors and integrated circuits.  Also, your preference is also understandable.

1 hour ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

No you didn't, sorry to infer that.  Earlier posts about active linked it heavily to DSP and Class D, which are unrelated to active, so I was responding in broader terms.  

There are many parameters possibly involved in modern speaker design including radiation pattern control with novel shapes and loading as well as electronics and DSP.  

1 hour ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Id love for you to A/B an active and passive side by side.  Its quite eye opening (or I should say ear opening).

Could be but I am not going to be the one to do it.  Too much else, too little time.  

[Cazzesman]

On 5/16/2020 at 12:55 PM, GregWormald said:

SGR CX4F

 

The story—

I first became interested in going active when I heard the active upgrade for my Linn Kabers, but the price of the active crossovers and 3 Linn amps (LK100?) made that impossible for me.

 

When I went listening to replace the Kabers I was seduced by the SGR CX4F Mk 1 speakers made in Melbourne. For an audition I flew to Melbourne, was picked up at the airport, given run of the designer's/manufacturer's family home (and demonstration lounge), fed homemade snacks, taken to lunch, joined them for a family dinner, shown the factory, got to play with unmounted drivers and their boxes, and then was returned to the airport. When I decided to buy (I was almost certain after 15! minutes, but stayed for the rest of the day😀 enjoying the hospitality and the music) they refunded my air fare. At the time the active speakers were A$10,000. A short few years later the upgrade to the Mark 2 became available—which included a couple of new drivers, the current drive amplifier system, transport and wooden shipping crates. A$4,500.

 

I can't see me upgrading again—unless the MT3.2 gets current drive! (No! Please don't do it, I probably can't afford it.)

 

They also look good. (Mine are rosewood, the front panel is leather.)

 

 

SGR's web page for CX4F here.

 

Hi Greg,  Nice post,

 

The only thing that got me to move on from Stuarts wonderful SGR's was a chance to move onto the Kii 3's.  

 

Wonderful Family to deal with a SGR.   The Lunch time demo is to die for. 

 

I haven't looked back with the 3's but the SGR's will always have a place in my heart because they led me to Actives..

 

Once you go Active (with DSP) you never go back 🙂

 

Regards Cazzesman

[baconbrain]

4 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

 

Once you go Active (with DSP) you never go back 🙂

 

 

Never say never! 😉

[Speedskater]

18 hours ago, Lone Mountain Audio said:

Id love for you to A/B an active and passive side by side.  Its quite eye opening (or I should say ear opening).

It will come down to the skill level's of the design engineers involved. An 'active crossover' has a lot more parameters to mess up. It happens often with DIY 'active crossovers' they look at the specs for their speakers and put those numbers in, but what comes out is not the same as the original design.

[Kal Rubinson]

2 hours ago, Speedskater said:

It will come down to the skill level's of the design engineers involved. An 'active crossover' has a lot more parameters to mess up. It happens often with DIY 'active crossovers' they look at the specs for their speakers and put those numbers in, but what comes out is not the same as the original design.

I thought we are talking about commercial designs created by professionals and not DIY.  The latter are not predictable.

 

 

[Cazzesman]

11 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

Never say never! 😉

 

You going back to the dark and muddy side? 😀

 

Regards Cazzesman

[baconbrain]

18 hours ago, Cazzesman said:

 

You going back to the dark and muddy side? 😀

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

Hey Cazzesman,

 

No such plans. The Kii‘s are still the setup of choice, but who knows what the future might bring ..? 😃

 

BB

 

[Cazzesman]

5 hours ago, baconbrain said:

 

Hey Cazzesman,

 

No such plans. The Kii‘s are still the setup of choice, but who knows what the future might bring ..? 😃

 

BB

 

 

My future hopefully holds a large inheritance that will be duly spent extravagantly on the BXT 🙂

 

Happy listening.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[Khaos]

I happened upon this thread while listening to my passive Boston Acoustic speakers that have been hanging under the eave of my home here in MN since 1995 and sound as clean, crisp, and deep as the day I bought them! 🙃 Lol

 

Unlike silicone wafers, Lithium batteries, and various precious metals destined for landfills across the globe; analog is a physical media that it isn't as well designed for filling landfills.

 

Drops analog mic (which I don't fret about breaking), picks up ball, and snickers home...

 

 

 

[AudioDoctor]

35 minutes ago, Khaos said:

I happened upon this thread while listening to my passive Boston Acoustic speakers that have been hanging under the eave of my home here in MN since 1995 and sound as clean, crisp, and deep as the day I bought them! 🙃 Lol

 

Unlike silicone wafers, Lithium batteries, and various precious metals destined for landfills across the globe; analog is a physical media that it isn't as well designed for filling landfills.

 

Drops analog mic (which I don't fret about breaking), picks up ball, and snickers home...

 

 

 

 

I have a hard time figuring out how you have had speakers outside your house, in MN no less, for 26 years and they are still in perfect working order?

[Khaos]

15 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

I have a hard time figuring out how you have had speakers outside your house, in MN no less, for 26 years and they are still in perfect working order?

Been hanging in the wind since 1995! See pic... They sound as sweet today and they did when I bought them!

[AudioDoctor]

6 minutes ago, Khaos said:

Been hanging in the wind since 1995! Wait, what happened to the pic?! I'll post a pic when I can figure it out?!

 

Do you only hang them when they're in use? I just can't wrap my head round this. I am also in MN.

[Khaos]

1 minute ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Do you only hang them when they're in use? I just can't wrap my head round this. I am also in MN.

I've never taken them down, even in -40F degree temps. Only clean them once in a while and check the connections. They're connected by 14 gauge monster cable, which I got when the company sold good quality.

[AudioDoctor]

1 minute ago, Khaos said:

I've never taken them down, even in -40F degree temps. Only clean them once in a while and check the connections. They're connected by 14 gauge monster cable, which I got when the company sold good quality.

 

Really impressed.

[Khaos]

2 minutes ago, AudioDoctor said:

 

Really impressed.

Yeah it's cool. I'm tinkering around with a raspberry pi right now. I can get sound directly from the pi to a walmart cd player to the speakers. Although I have to turn up the volume 100% to hear anything, but it's clear as a bell. Gonna get a FX Audio DAC and plan to hookup the speakers to the headlphone amp because I can. I have a mid 80's Pioneer that still works, but is huge AF.

[loop7]

As others have said, passive speakers are critical to the hobby aspect of the audiophile. Most of my music listening is via active speakers which has been the case for 18 months now.

 

So, here's a question:

 

Does anyone wonder if companies such as Wilson Audio, Magico, Rockport, etc will ever design and build active main speakers?

 

I once asked a speaker manufacturer ($60,000 top price) if he thought his speakers might be better if active to which he replied "probably" but said it wouldn't be strategic which makes total sense.

[AudioDoctor]

8 minutes ago, loop7 said:

As others have said, passive speakers are critical to the hobby aspect of the audiophile. Most of my music listening is via active speakers which has been the case for 18 months now.

 

So, here's a question:

 

Does anyone wonder if companies such as Wilson Audio, Magico, Rockport, etc will ever design and build active main speakers?

 

I once asked a speaker manufacturer ($60,000 top price) if he thought his speakers might be better if active to which he replied "probably" but said it wouldn't be strategic which makes total sense.

 

I think that active speakers and DSP definitely have a place in audio and there is no doubt they can get better numbers out of them. Whether that translates to better music? I don't know.

[Khaos]

32 minutes ago, loop7 said:

As others have said, passive speakers are critical to the hobby aspect of the audiophile. Most of my music listening is via active speakers which has been the case for 18 months now.

 

So, here's a question:

 

Does anyone wonder if companies such as Wilson Audio, Magico, Rockport, etc will ever design and build active main speakers?

 

I once asked a speaker manufacturer ($60,000 top price) if he thought his speakers might be better if active to which he replied "probably" but said it wouldn't be strategic which makes total sense.

Can digital outperform my sorry Boston Acoustics (and whatever I choose to power them)? Of course, but is that the question we should ask? 1) Can digital ever achieve the same durability and recyclability inherent to analog? No. 2) Can digital ever achieve the same level of industry standardization as analog? No. Digital is an artifice always chasing it's own tail.

[davide256]

I wouldn't buy an active speaker unless the amp was a plug in module that could be easily replaced. Speakers tend to last forever but electronics age/obsolesce.

[Lone Mountain Audio]

Davide256, you have a strong point regarding DSP driven actives.  This does evolve as chips change.  

Brad