Mains Power Cord Recommendations For Zenith SE and/or Satement.

[kennyb123]

7 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

I’ll get to power cords in a moment but confirmation bias has been coming up a lot lately so i decided to do some reading up on the scientific literature. While the science is mainly around linguistics and social aspects there is some around audio which makes fascinating reading.

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. Was anything mentioned about how long it lasts?  I’d imagine it’s strongest the moment we make a change, but then dissipates as our mind gets consumed with other thoughts.  Or maybe we immediately find that our expectations weren’t exactly right and we find ourselves needing to adjust to the information we’re hearing.  Haven’t we moved beyond confirmation bias at this point?  
 

Eventually what we’ve added is no longer “new” and its actual performance has reshaped our understanding of the value it has brought us.  I recently experienced this after substituting ASC Isothermal tube traps for GIK Monster bass traps in the front corners behind my speakers.  My expectations were completely blown away by this move as I was oblivious to how badly my room had been masking the upper frequencies.
 

[Blackmorec]

When you set out to buy a hi-fi you’ll be aware that there is a huge variety of hardware that you can chose from that comes in all price categories and offers sound quality from the very mediocre to the incredibly excellent. This is true for loudspeakers, amplifiers, turntables, CD players, servers,  streamers, DACs, pre-amplifiers, phono-amplifiers and of course all the interconnecting cables. So when you’ve bought all the goodies for your new system, you should also chose cables and power cables appropriate for your system.....no point in either buying great gear then interconnecting it poorly, conversely there’s not point in being economical with your purchases then over-investing in cables to try and win additional sound quality.  When it comes to the Zenith SE there’s no doubt that you can elevate its performance with ‘better’ power cords....although I’m not sure what ‘better’ means in terms of technical features and specs; I only know that it means “sounds substantially  better”.  I took an aftermarket cable from Synergistic Research, played some specific music and noted specific improvements.....what and when.... then replace said cable with the OEM cable . If the improvements are still present then there’s no improvement and my judgement was influenced by confirmation bias. If the improvements are not present, then I’m hearing genuine SQ benefits from the new cable.  Now I may also find in this comparison that I have a strong preference for the sound of the new cable, which may still be confirmation bias, but frankly if I like something a lot better, why would I worry which particular mental process generates the liking as long as I can identify specific easily discerned differences which I prefer?

Do I need measurements?  Not unless they increase my listening pleasure, which they won’t but I would say that measurements....the right measurements.....would be useful in understanding why I preferred a particular cable over another for which I currently have no technical explanation. However making measurements that show no difference and concluding from that there’s therefore no aural difference would just be silly. All it means if measurements don’t reveal the reason for aural differences is that I’m not measuring the thing that causes the aural change.  If one measurement fails to support another all it means is that there’s no correlation or interaction between those 2 measures, given that one is physical and the other sensory. The problem with cables is that there are lots of variables and the impact of those variables differs according to the system the cable is installed in. Therefore in hi-fi we use specs to short list then chose cables by how they sound rather than how they measure. 

[Ralf11]

yes, you do not need measurements - but you do need statistics 

 

run 10 double blind listening tests - if you can tell the difference 9 or 10 times out of 10 then there is a difference you can hear/perceive

 

 

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

yes, you do not need measurements - but you do need statistics 

 

run 10 double blind listening tests - if you can tell the difference 9 or 10 times out of 10 then there is a difference you can hear/perceive

 

 

 

 Listening to music for relaxation and enjoyment is NOTHING like repetitive Analytical listening where you are trying to hear minute differences, and after a while everything starts to sound the same, and you may even end up with a headache with lengthy DBT sessions.

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

yes, you do not need measurements - but you do need statistics 

 

run 10 double blind listening tests - if you can tell the difference 9 or 10 times out of 10 then there is a difference you can hear/perceive

 

 

That sounds so enjoyable I can’t stop thinking about it. 

[Ralf11]

Then don't do it and just throw away your money

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 minute ago, Ralf11 said:

Then don't do it and just throw away your money

That’s the beauty of being an adult. We can make our own choices and decide how we have fun. And, we can elect to not be saved by crusaders. 

[fas42]

Or, another way of looking at the process 😉 ...

 

The equipment, no matter expensive, how superb it is technically, is always an impediment; it's always getting between you and the music that's on the recording ... so what you want to do is to get rid of every last suggestion that you are "listening to your gear" - as soon as there is the slightest whiff of something which is not about the recording, but rather the playback chain, that means it's not "invisible enough".

 

That is, equipment never, ever 'improves' the recording - it can only degrade it - so the goal is to do everything you can think of "to make the rig go away" ... it just turns out that this is close to an endless journey; there is almost always another refinement to make the "cloak of invisibility" more 'perfect', 🙂.

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

Then don't do it and just throw away your money

Experience helps us to improve our discernment capabilities.  The more one experiments with cameras, lenses, shutter speed, etc, the better one becomes at seeing how much these things matter.  The same is true about audio - as we grow we get better at being able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

But what about those who have made the choice to not gain any insight by trusting their ears?  Their lack of experience hasn’t equipped them with an understanding of how discerning us humans can be about such things.   Because they refuse to try to sort out these differences themselves they foolishly think that the rest of us are as inept as they choose to be - so they end up saying foolish things. 

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

Experience helps us to improve our discernment capabilities.  The more one experiments with cameras, lenses, shutter speed, etc, the better one becomes at seeing how much these things matter.  The same is true about audio - as we grow we get better at being able to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

But what about those who have made the choice to not gain any insight by trusting their ears?  Their lack of experience hasn’t equipped them with an understanding of how discerning us humans can be about such things.   Because they refuse to try to sort out these differences themselves they foolishly think that the rest of us are as inept as they choose to be - so they end up saying foolish things. 

 

It isn't your ears, it is your perception that confirmation bias interferes with.  That is why you need to be careful when deciding to buy something like an AC power cord.

 

Or just buy a big phat one - I see some on audio advisor now for $1,500.

 

I'd rather get the Vincent tube pre + DAC, new pentode design or not.

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

That is why you need to be careful when deciding to buy something like an AC power cord

Thank you for attempting to save those grown men who don’t know they want to be saved. They’ve made it their entire, likely successful, lives without anonymous people on the internet there to save them. I don’t know how they get to work in the morning. Got forbid they enjoy the car ride in anything other than a used ‘98 Carolla. 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

 

It isn't your ears, it is your perception that confirmation bias interferes with.  That is why you need to be careful when deciding to buy something like an AC power cord.

 

No one is saying that we have no need to be careful when spending that kind of money.  
 

If our perceptions are so certain to steer us in the wrong direction, why aren’t we reading about it here?  Where is all the lamenting from folks upset that they allowed their perceptions to get the best of them?  Might the absence of this tell you that your concerns are overblown and out of touch with reality? 

 

I could fully understand giving your advice to the person who is upset that his perceptions caused him to throw his money away.  That person would certainly benefit from advice that would help him do a better job of keeping his expectations in check  But to repeatedly offer this advice to those delighted with bang they keep getting for their buck - that just seems... nuts.

[The Computer Audiophile]

I also don’t think anyone is selecting power cables over food and medications. This is a hobby on which we spend our disposable income. Many people have worked their butts off their entire lives to be able to have some fun, relax, try new things, etc... without crusaders breathing down their necks.  

[rickca]

I buy everything with confidence.  If you read enough reviews, you're sure to find a positive one.

[Ralf11]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thank you for attempting to save those grown men who don’t know they want to be saved. They’ve made it their entire, likely successful, lives without anonymous people on the internet there to save them. I don’t know how they get to work in the morning. Got forbid they enjoy the car ride in anything other than a used ‘98 Carolla. 

 

what is wrong with you?

 

and lose the crusader stuff too - it cuts both ways

 

the OP asked a question - a diverse group of people are giving him answers - do you not trust him to decide??

[sandyk]

53 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

the OP asked a question - a diverse group of people are giving him answers - do you not trust him to decide??

 

This thread is about Mains Power Cord Recommendations .

The OP is not interested in replies from a small group of members telling him that he is wasting his time and money.

 He is asking for recommendations from members who have heard differences between different A.C. mains cables. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3hHQvkUhJo

 

[kennyb123]

57 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

This thread is about Mains Power Cord Recommendations .

The OP is not interested in replies from a small group of members telling him that he is wasting his time and money.

 

Exactly!  In addition "run 10 double blind listening tests.." isn't answering a question that the OP asked.  

 

I read something interesting recently about narcissists.  They often target people who have a quality they greatly admire but they find missing in themselves.  To make themselves feel better about their inadequacy they often craft an alternative reality in which that deficiency is no longer a deficiency but the norm (I'm paraphrasing).  I'd imagine if narcissist felt bad about his inability to sort out audio differences on his own, a way he might relieve that tension is to craft a reality in which none of us are equipped to do such a thing - maybe even going as far as saying that those who make such claims must be imagining it. Such a person would likely be relentless in trying to make reality conform to the way he needs it to be - and would be disdainful of those whose actions threatened his alternative reality.

 

I apologize to the OP and others for taking things so far off track with the above.  I just thought some might find this of interest.  

[Blackmorec]

Fascinating stuff Kenny. The part I never understand about how these posts go is the nastiness that soon emerges when the logic becomes unarguable. Do people really feel that passionate about ‘saving others’ from theIr own hi-fis or is there something else afoot? I think your post is very insightful in that regard. 

 

I have no problem whatsoever in people disagreeing with whatever I post and I’m always willing to enter a debate. Its how I learn things. What I’m not fond of at all are the attempts to drag one into acrimonious arguments, although I do understand how that works from a psychological standpoint. 

 

Now back on topic I would like to add that power cables are one way to get more out of a Zenith SE or Statement. Optimising the upstream network is another and may be the more cost effective in terms of the $$$ spent and the SQ improvements realised.  Also quite surprising is the type of and number of improvements that bring rewards.......better ethernet cables, linear power supplies for network components, better DC cables,  isolation, vibration control. What all these upstream improvements do is to make the whole soundstage more 3 dimensional, immersing and cohesive. There really is a remarkable amount of detail in these files and so far I haven’t reached a point where the improvements stop, so it seems that the upstream side is wide open for improvement.  Just to note that the soundstage, 3 dimensionality and cohesiveness are all created in the brain based on the quality of the 2 loudspeaker signals......the cleaner and more pristine the signals, the better the brain can construct the 3 dimensional picture...so I assume that removing noise and jitter allows the system to create a more pure and pristine version of the signal. 

 

 

 

 

[mansr]

8 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thank you for attempting to save those grown men who don’t know they want to be saved.

No, thank you for your heroic efforts in saving the high-end audio industry from the destructive forces of science and reason.

[mansr]

Can we make it a rule that anyone who opens a thread with a question must identify which answer is acceptable? That way we can all avoid wasting time giving unwanted answers.

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

 

Now back on topic I would like to add that power cables are one way to get more out of a Zenith SE or Statement. Optimising the upstream network is another and may be the more cost effective in terms of the $$$ spent and the SQ improvements realised.  Also quite surprising is the type of and number of improvements that bring rewards.......better ethernet cables, linear power supplies for network components, better DC cables,  isolation, vibration control. What all these upstream improvements do is to make the whole soundstage more 3 dimensional, immersing and cohesive. There really is a remarkable amount of detail in these files and so far I haven’t reached a point where the improvements stop, so it seems that the upstream side is wide open for improvement.  Just to note that the soundstage, 3 dimensionality and cohesiveness are all created in the brain based on the quality of the 2 loudspeaker signals......the cleaner and more pristine the signals, the better the brain can construct the 3 dimensional picture...so I assume that removing noise and jitter allows the system to create a more pure and pristine version of the signal. 

 

 

Very well said.  

 

In terms of your comment about "the cleaner and more pristine the signals", I think you might find this an interesting read, particularly what they have to say about "sound masking":

 

https://www.acousticsciences.com/media/articles/how-tubetraps-opened-whole-new-realm-precision-performance-audio-playback-systems

 

Quite profound to hear what these can do to make the sound clearer and more pristine.  I think I might even prioritize these (or something like them) ahead of a better power cord for the Zenith - and ahead of making the move from SE to Statement.

 

 

[kennyb123]

1 hour ago, Blackmorec said:

Fascinating stuff Kenny. The part I never understand about how these posts go is the nastiness that soon emerges when the logic becomes unarguable. Do people really feel that passionate about ‘saving others’ from theIr own hi-fis or is there something else afoot? I think your post is very insightful in that regard. 

 

I have no problem whatsoever in people disagreeing with whatever I post and I’m always willing to enter a debate. Its how I learn things. What I’m not fond of at all are the attempts to drag one into acrimonious arguments, although I do understand how that works from a psychological standpoint. 

 

See #2:  https://blogs.psychcentral.com/psychology-self/2018/08/narcissist-arguing/.  

[sandyk]

46 minutes ago, mansr said:

Can we make it a rule that anyone who opens a thread with a question must identify which answer is acceptable? That way we can all avoid wasting time giving unwanted answers.

 

You would love that . You have tried almost everything else to silence those who disagree with you, even down to demanding they be banned from the forum.

 Besides which, the OP already has the ability to ask Chris for Moderator powers, which at least one from your side uses extensively.

[4est]

1 hour ago, mansr said:

Can we make it a rule that anyone who opens a thread with a question must identify which answer is acceptable? That way we can all avoid wasting time giving unwanted answers.

Come on now Mans, it was pretty clear that the OP wanted suggestions based on observations. If you observed no difference on that device, just say so. This notion that there is no science to back this up isn't applicable in this thread.

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, kennyb123 said:

 

Very well said.  

 

In terms of your comment about "the cleaner and more pristine the signals", I think you might find this an interesting read, particularly what they have to say about "sound masking":

 

https://www.acousticsciences.com/media/articles/how-tubetraps-opened-whole-new-realm-precision-performance-audio-playback-systems

 

Quite profound to hear what these can do to make the sound clearer and more pristine.  I think I might even prioritize these (or something like them) ahead of a better power cord for the Zenith - and ahead of making the move from SE to Statement.

 

 

Hi Kenny,

Thanks for that....very interesting. Funnily enough I owned a pair of Dahlquist DQ10s and loved the damned things....they made music sound real, especially impressive back then. I also built 8 bass traps using a very interesting recipe that allowed you to tune how much bass was absorbed or reflected, simply by turning the trap and exposing more or less of a reflective panel that covered the absorption layer for half of the circumference. They worked extremely well.  When I left Germany I had no further use for them so I gave them away. Some guy came and took 4. The next day he called back practically begging for the other 4. 

 

These days I have no bass traps but I may put 2 or 4 into my room corners at some stage.  What I do use are Devialet Expert 440 Pro CI monoblocks which includes SAM (Speaker Active Matching) which corrects bass timing down to 0Hz. Turns out this is extremely important also for frequencies above where SAM rolls off (ca. 150) . The results are quite spectacular

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/speaker-active-matching-sam-technology-in-the-devialet-expert-220-pro-integrated-amplifier/