Mains Power Cord Recommendations For Zenith SE and/or Satement.

[fas42]

3 hours ago, Blackmorec said:

There really is a remarkable amount of detail in these files and so far I haven’t reached a point where the improvements stop, so it seems that the upstream side is wide open for improvement.  Just to note that the soundstage, 3 dimensionality and cohesiveness are all created in the brain based on the quality of the 2 loudspeaker signals......the cleaner and more pristine the signals, the better the brain can construct the 3 dimensional picture...so I assume that removing noise and jitter allows the system to create a more pure and pristine version of the signal.

 

 

The ear/brain's a funny beast - it can handle some anomalies, things like FR imperfections with ease, or missing bass fundamentals; but other misdemeanors are too much for it - and the detail within are lost to its understanding. The great satisfaction when you do enough 'right' things which eliminate, or attenuate playback misbehaviour is that "unlistenable" recordings emerge like a jack-in-the-box from the squashed, disheveled messes they normally appear to be.

 

"Pristine" recordings will barely move, because the mind has already worked out everything that's happening in the event space; the great delight is unveiling the musical treasures within the "reject" albums or tracks; their complexity which was formerly indecipherable is now fully formed, and becomes a subjectively satisfying experience.

[marce]

10 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Thank you for attempting to save those grown men who don’t know they want to be saved. They’ve made it their entire, likely successful, lives without anonymous people on the internet there to save them. I don’t know how they get to work in the morning. Got forbid they enjoy the car ride in anything other than a used ‘98 Carolla. 

Shouldn't grown men be able to discuss the reality of audio repreduction and the underlying mechanisms instead of throwing the dummy out of the pan because someone disagrees with their viewpoint... 

[4est]

45 minutes ago, marce said:

Shouldn't grown men be able to discuss the reality of audio repreduction and the underlying mechanisms instead of throwing the dummy out of the pan because someone disagrees with their viewpoint... 

You keep suggesting that others not take things so seriously, and yet here you are intimating that they are not adult enough if they don't desire to be ridiculed for not abiding by what is misconceived of as science. I doubt anyone in audio has not encountered the pro vs con debates about cabling. The true adult thing is to let the children play their games while you play yours.

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Shouldn't grown men be able to discuss the reality of audio repreduction and the underlying mechanisms instead of throwing the dummy out of the pan because someone disagrees with their viewpoint... 

Without a doubt. But the key thing here isn’t that someone disagrees....its the way the disagreement is framed in order to manipulate a particular response. You really shouldn’t believe that this manipulation is covert. It isn’t. Many people understand how the manipulation works. Its effect is to ruin an interesting conversation and frankly drag down the whole tone of the forum. Go back over some of my most recent posts and look at the purposely provocative and insulting replies....they are intended to either intimidate or failing that, invoke an answer that can then be condemned.  I have absolutely no problem with someone disagreeing with my viewpoint. I rely a lot on logic and experience so I acknowledge there may be holes or flaws in my conclusions and I very much appreciate being corrected. However when that correction takes the form of scathing abuse, I know that there’s another agenda. I realised that some people find my posts threatening, i just couldn't figure out why, until now. You see, that’s the beauty of a forum. 

[marce]

19 minutes ago, Blackmorec said:

. I realised that some people find my posts threatening, i just couldn't figure out why, until now. You see, that’s the beauty of a forum. 

I would love to know who and why they would find your posts threatening... 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, marce said:

Shouldn't grown men be able to discuss the reality of audio repreduction and the underlying mechanisms instead of throwing the dummy out of the pan because someone disagrees with their viewpoint... 

Grown men are allowed to piss in the punch bowl. However, I wouldn't let it happen at my party and I'm sure the people already enjoying themselves at the party wouldn't like it. 

 

When participants of a conversation clearly don't want to hear someone tell them they are crazy audiophools, I'm all for not letting it happen. 

 

I don't understand why people are on a crusade to save others. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

Also, anyone is free to start his own thread here and talk about how crazy audiophools are for believing what they believe. The fact that people don't do this often reminds me of kids who used to fight after school in sixth grade. If nobody went to watch the fight, the fight wouldn't take place. 

[4est]

2 minutes ago, marce said:

I would love to know who and why they would find your posts threatening... 

And I do not understand why you would even  care one way or another. You appear to have your mind made up about this, how about you be a big boy and let others discover for themselves too.

[kumakuma]

4 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

You would love that . You have tried almost everything else to silence those who disagree with you, even down to demanding they be banned from the forum.

 

 

What a load of crap!

 

The only person he suggested banning was you and it was because of your angry posts, not because you disagreed with him.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

What a load of crap!

 

The only person he suggested banning was you and it was because of your angry posts, not because you disagreed with him.

I concur. 

[marce]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Grown men are allowed to piss in the punch bowl. However, I wouldn't let it happen at my party and I'm sure the people already enjoying themselves at the party wouldn't like it. 

 

When participants of a conversation clearly don't want to hear someone tell them they are crazy audiophools, I'm all for not letting it happen. 

 

I don't understand why people are on a crusade to save others. 

Its not a crusade to save others, some people make claims often bizarre claims others disagree, so its OK to propagate audiophile myths without any questioning...

Instead of all crying about saving someone, come back with some technical references to back the myths up... that's what the more objective audiophiles do, look for a mechanism and also don't accept their hearing as some infallible and like to check all angles...

And if you are not a true believer in the faith you are a heretic who's viewpoint is to be disregarded... Sorry but this hobby is getting more and more like a religion every day, with its own messiahs, myths and beliefs, with seemingly science and physics as the work of heretics... 

[marce]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Also, anyone is free to start his own thread here and talk about how crazy audiophools are for believing what they believe. The fact that people don't do this often reminds me of kids who used to fight after school in sixth grade. If nobody went to watch the fight, the fight wouldn't take place. 

The last few days your wording and attitude has changed and not for the better in my book, I use to enjoy this site, but the recent stuff, your language such as above "crazy audiophools" is getting a bit uncomfortable for my liking... Its all becoming very personal and strange. There have been numerous threads started to look at more engineering/physics behind some beliefs and reported phenomena, but the true believers do just the same as you accuse the more objective members off....  

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

4 minutes ago, marce said:

Its not a crusade to save others, some people make claims often bizarre claims others disagree, so its OK to propagate audiophile myths without any questioning...

Instead of all crying about saving someone, come back with some technical references to back the myths up... that's what the more objective audiophiles do, look for a mechanism and also don't accept their hearing as some infallible and like to check all angles...

And if you are not a true believer in the faith you are a heretic who's viewpoint is to be disregarded... Sorry but this hobby is getting more and more like a religion every day, with its own messiahs, myths and beliefs, with seemingly science and physics as the work of heretics... 

I respectfully disagree with everything.

 

You seem to be confusing a hobbyist forum for a scholarly journal. With all due respect, it seems like you could take the fun out of a wine tasting trip as well. 

 

It isn't a matter of "propagate audiophile myths without any questioning" because nobody here is the Minister of Information that will demand you believe him and change your own system in your house. It's a group of friends talking about having fun, trying tweaks, and reporting what they hear. 

 

It's of zero interest to debate technical details for most people. There's nothing wrong with that. You guys have a serious issue with letting people live and have their own discussions. 

 

No viewpoints are to be disgraced around here. This is entertainment, a hobby, fun. People do this to escape busy lives. You are free to open your own thread and say whatever you want. You just can't piss in the punch bowl of people having a good time, who don't want your piss. 

[marce]

2 hours ago, 4est said:

And I do not understand why you would even  care one way or another. You appear to have your mind made up about this, how about you be a big boy and let others discover for themselves too.

I asked a direct question, so obviously I care, as to your reply, look what your accusing others off, yet you tell me to be a big boy....... Sad.

The reason why I asked is because its a HOBBY FORUM, I don't find any replies threatening and no one else should...

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, marce said:

The last few days your wording and attitude has changed and not for the better in my book, I use to enjoy this site, but the recent stuff, your language such as above "crazy audiophools" is getting a bit uncomfortable for my liking... Its all becoming very personal and strange. There have been numerous threads started to look at more engineering/physics behind some beliefs and reported phenomena, but the true believers do just the same as you accuse the more objective members off....  

 

I respect your opinion greatly and thank you for sharing it. 

 

I use the term "crazy audiophools" because it comes from those who demand objective data and have a very hard time letting people enjoy their own conversations and HiFi experiences. I didn't make that term up, I borrowed it from the objective extremists. 

 

I love the threads started to look at engineering and physics behind beliefs. Great stuff!

 

Yes, the "true believers" as you call them do exactly the same thing. 100% correct and it's not OK. If you want to stick with objective data in a thread, I'll do my best to moderate that thread and will hand over moderating rights for the OP to do the same. This is how it has worked for years around here. 

[Blackmorec]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Also, anyone is free to start his own thread here and talk about how crazy audiophools are for believing what they believe. The fact that people don't do this often reminds me of kids who used to fight after school in sixth grade. If nobody went to watch the fight, the fight wouldn't take place. 

Well if there was ever any argument or doubt about the relative power of the sword and the word, this post clinches it, in favour of the word. 

[pkane2001]

17 minutes ago, marce said:

The last few days your wording and attitude has changed and not for the better in my book, I use to enjoy this site, but the recent stuff, your language such as above "crazy audiophools" is getting a bit uncomfortable for my liking... Its all becoming very personal and strange. There have been numerous threads started to look at more engineering/physics behind some beliefs and reported phenomena, but the true believers do just the same as you accuse the more objective members off....  

 

 

Wow. I was just about to post a similar sentiment. @The Computer Audiophile, lately you seem to jump into threads where even the OP said he welcomes different opinions (like this one!) apparently in order to stop contributions from those with some knowledge and expertise. Not every opinion is equal. Some are informed, others are faith-based.

 

At the very least, I'd recommend that you respect your own terms of service and let the OP moderate their own threads except where direct personal attacks are involved. You're not on an equal footing here with the rest of the members. You're the owner and the moderator, so your participation sets the tone for the site.

 

On 12/7/2019 at 8:12 AM, Yorkshireman said:

Thanks for all of the replies so far on both sides of the notorious Mains Cable (power lead) debate. I'm a strong believer in Free Speech and that there is always more than one way to look at something.

[The Computer Audiophile]

16 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Wow. I was just about to post a similar sentiment. @The Computer Audiophile, lately you seem to jump into threads where even the OP said he welcomes different opinions (like this one!) apparently in order to stop contributions from those with some knowledge and expertise. Not every opinion is equal. Some are informed, others are faith-based.

 

At the very least, I'd recommend that you respect your own terms of service and let the OP moderate their own threads except where direct personal attacks are involved. You're not on an equal footing here with the rest of the members. You're the owner and the moderator, so your participation sets the tone for the site.

 

Hi Paul - With respect to this thread, it seems to have taken on a life of its own. I was under the impression that this was an impression based thread. I always try to follow my own rules because I believe in them. If I haven't in this thread, it wasn't on purpose or malicious. 

 

I don't do things to, "stop contributions from those with some knowledge and expertise." I have stated countless times that people are free to start their own threads if the comments being offered are not what the OP is looking for. In fact, by asking for new threads to be created I'm doing the opposite of what you suggest I'm doing. Bickering back and forth hasn't gotten people anywhere over the last 12 years of AS. Starting new threads ensures a place for the discussions. 

 

Over the last week or so I got tired of people jumping into conversations to leave short quips about separating idiots from their money, audiophools, etc... It gets old. I'm human just like everyone else here, although I once thought a member of the objective crowd was a bot, and my patience wax and wane like everyone else. 

 

I don't like disrespect toward members of this community (not accusing you). When I see objectivists continually go into every thread, in which they know they aren't wanted, only to leave trolling comments, it gets old. Sure the trolling comments might be 100% factual, but that doesn't matter in every thread. 

 

Audiophile Style isn't the front line in the attack on science. It's a hobbyist forum for people to have fun. If one's idea of fun is ruining fun for others, then it's time to move on (not aimed at you). On the other hand, if one's idea of fun is increasing their level of enjoyment in this hobby, that's awesome.

 

Both objectivists and subjectivists and everyone in between can have fun here. However, there are some cases where neither party is interested in what the other has to say. Both sides need to live with that.

[pkane2001]

22 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Hi Paul - With respect to this thread, it seems to have taken on a life of its own. I was under the impression that this was an impression based thread. I always try to follow my own rules because I believe in them. If I haven't in this thread, it wasn't on purpose or malicious. 

 

I don't do things to, "stop contributions from those with some knowledge and expertise." I have stated countless times that people are free to start their own threads if the comments being offered are not what the OP is looking for. In fact, by asking for new threads to be created I'm doing the opposite of what you suggest I'm doing. Bickering back and forth hasn't gotten people anywhere over the last 12 years of AS. Starting new threads ensures a place for the discussions. 

 

Over the last week or so I got tired of people jumping into conversations to leave short quips about separating idiots from their money, audiophools, etc... It gets old. I'm human just like everyone else here, although I once thought a member of the objective crowd was a bot, and my patience wax and wane like everyone else. 

 

I don't like disrespect toward members of this community (not accusing you). When I see objectivists continually go into every thread, in which they know they aren't wanted, only to leave trolling comments, it gets old. Sure the trolling comments might be 100% factual, but that doesn't matter in every thread. 

 

Audiophile Style isn't the front line in the attack on science. It's a hobbyist forum for people to have fun. If one's idea of fun is ruining fun for others, then it's time to move on (not aimed at you). On the other hand, if one's idea of fun is increasing their level of enjoyment in this hobby, that's awesome.

 

Both objectivists and subjectivists and everyone in between can have fun here. However, there are some cases where neither party is interested in what the other has to say. Both sides need to live with that.

 

I appreciate the job in front of you, Chris. I own and moderate a number of large international forums (5000+ members) and this place seems way more chaotic and out of control than anything I have to deal with.

 

My advice is to be careful how you determine that "neither party is interested in what the other has to say." It should be based on the OP wishes and not on the opinion or loud screaming of a few vocal individuals that jump in to every thread to protest and attack anything that contradicts their beliefs.

 

[Ralf11]

14 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

This thread is about Mains Power Cord Recommendations .

The OP is not interested in replies from a small group of members telling him that he is wasting his time and money.

 

 

No, I communicated with him and that does not seem to be the case.

 

It is a wonderful thing however, that you are there to protect him from good advice (like using an isolation transformer or balanced power) and to protect the Cable Crusaders

[Ralf11]

I don't understand why people are on a crusade to save others from the perfectly good AC cables* that high-end manfs. include with their expensive products.

 

By "people" I exclude the companies that sell such cables and their dealers.

 

 

* Warranty on this post extends to AC cables only and does not apply to DC cables or speaker cables.  May not apply in some states (of confusion or altered reality).  Void where prohibited by law.  

 

 

[The Computer Audiophile]

21 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

My advice is to be careful how you determine that "neither party is interested in what the other has to say." It should be based on the OP wishes and not on the opinion or loud screaming of a few vocal individuals that jump in to every thread to protest and attack anything that contradicts their beliefs.

Great advice. I'd never want to steer a discussion away from the OP's intentions. That's something the old guard / Ministers of Information would do and it's just bad business. 

 

I wish there was a good way to have the OP state specific intentions right away if he wishes the topic be one-sided. It's not how I like my threads to go but I value threads by everyone and would like to make it easier for everyone to enjoy HiFi however they see fit. 

[mansr]

56 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

what the OP is looking for

That's the problem right there. How are we supposed to know which answers are permissible before offering them? Nothing in the opening post of this thread suggested to me that rational responses were unwelcome. My impression was that someone was simply wondering if a different power cord might improve something and, if so, what would be a good choice.

 

To avoid such misunderstandings, perhaps a profile setting of "true believer" could be added. If someone enables it, their avatar could be rendered with a floating halo to indicate this status unambiguously.

[The Computer Audiophile]

2 minutes ago, mansr said:

That's the problem right there. How are we supposed to know which answers are permissible before offering them? Nothing in the opening post of this thread suggested to me that rational responses were unwelcome. My impression was that someone was simply wondering if a different power cord might improve something and, if so, what would be a good choice.

 

To avoid such misunderstandings, perhaps a profile setting of "true believer" could be added. If someone enables it, their avatar could be rendered with a floating halo to indicate this status unambiguously.

I see you clicked the True Troll option in your profile 😉

[Blackmorec]

This isn’t axe grinding....its just an observation.

Hi-fi is improving all the time. Devices are becoming more sophisticated, more customised, more refined and better sounding. As you improve things like room, speaker positioning, cabling, vibration control, power and networking the sound quality continues to improve.......if we allow people who post about this progress to be attacked and shut down then i think its a real pity. And that is already going on.  I’m not saying that people can’t disagree. What I am talking about is the derision, cynicism and respectlessness they receive as part of posting something new, controversial or whatever. 

Debate and disagreement    Fine

Derision, aggression and absence of respect    Not fine.  Not fine at all