Innuos PhoenixUSB

[matthias]

5 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

I do wonder if a reclocker would improve the Extreme’s SQ, even the extreme can be improved! 

 

I am absolutely sure that Emile tried all variants.

 

Matt

[matthias]

14 minutes ago, ken6217 said:

You don't get it, or the whole premise.. One thing has nothing to do with another. The sound signature of a streamer has thing to do with the USB implementation. I'd venture to guess that the software that a manufacturer uses in their streamer has more to do with the sound Ghan the hardware. 

 

In my experience the sound signature of the Statement is not very different to the lower Innous models, certainly better in some aspects.

 

Matt 

[ASRMichael]

2 hours ago, matthias said:

 

I am absolutely sure that Emile tried all variants.

 

Matt

So Emile has tried the whole phone book? So no further R&D development required. Doors closed then on extreme 2! Come on, I know Emile is a genius but he’s not god! 
 

I suspect he left out OCXO clocks & other mods due to costs. When you already have amazing sounding machine which is streaks above the rest why risk adding further costs to an already expensive product. 
 

answer? You don’t, you leaves them out! 

 

[matthias]

35 minutes ago, ASRMichael said:

So Emile has tried the whole phone book? So no further R&D development required. Doors closed then on extreme 2! Come on, I know Emile is a genius but he’s not god! 
 

I suspect he left out OCXO clocks & other mods due to costs. When you already have amazing sounding machine which is streaks above the rest why risk adding further costs to an already expensive product. 
 

answer? You don’t, you leaves them out! 

 

Certainly the Extreme can be improved in due time by Emile.

At the moment I do not see any competitors which would be able to surpass it.

@romaz purchased one because it is superior than his own best builds so far and @Nenon is building a computer with some of the same components (hardware and software) as in the Extreme.

 

Matt

[romaz]

3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

So Emile has tried the whole phone book? So no further R&D development required. Doors closed then on extreme 2! Come on, I know Emile is a genius but he’s not god! 
 

I suspect he left out OCXO clocks & other mods due to costs. When you already have amazing sounding machine which is streaks above the rest why risk adding further costs to an already expensive product. 
 

answer? You don’t, you leaves them out! 

 

 

Maybe not the best place for this post but I will try and respond to your questions and comments since Matt brought me into it.  The Extreme, from inception, was a "cost no object" product and represents Emile's best effort based on available technology.  At one time, Emile used to make his own OCXOs and used to provide OCXO boards for other music server manufacturers and so the fact that he has left out high-level clocking in the Extreme has nothing to do with cost.

 

To provide some background on Emile's approach, first and foremost, he listens and his ability to hear is exceptional, almost like a bat.  He said he had his hearing tested and he can still hear to 20kHz.  This is not something I am capable of.  He then tries to correlate what he hears with measurements and he hires an outside firm with very sophisticated measuring equipment to conduct these measurements.  He said he pays something like 100 Euros an hour for these measurements and has spent tens of thousands of Euros on measurements alone.  These measurements are not just limited to RF/EMI, jitter, or phase noise but other forms of noise that he will not fully disclose and he has observed certain patterns that have helped guide him.  With clocking for example, he found that high-level clocking did some good things but also bad things with respect to sound quality and I am in agreement with this.  Having once replaced all the clocks on a motherboard, I found the signature to sound too soft and unnatural.  He was able to figure out what these bad things were based on measurements and consequently figured out a way to achieve the good aspects of clocking without the bad without using expensive clocks at all.

 

The same thing applies to linear regulation.  There are good aspects to it and bad and there are somethings that switching supplies do better.  If you can reign in the bad and are left only with the good, then you go with it and so the Extreme is an anomaly because on paper, you wouldn't think it should sound good at all.  It uses high-power CPUs that generate a lot of electrical noise, stock off-the-shelf motherboards with noisy switching regulators and clocks on board, and no fancy USB board and yet the Extreme is the quietest, fastest, most resolving, and yet most natural sounding music server I have ever heard, easily besting my own DIY efforts and better than any of the commercial servers I have owned or tried in my system and by a very large margin!  Rarely do I speak of a $25k server being high value but I have easily spent more than this already on my numerous builds and have never come close.

 

Can it be improved?  Sure, anything can and I have certainly tweaked the Extreme to my personal preferences.  One of the advantages of the Extreme is that it lends itself to tweaking as it has 4 free PCIe slots.  While I haven't tried the Phoenix, I have tried a maxed out tX-USBultra with REF 10 master clock and Iso-Regen and even with these devices powered by my best power supply from Paul Hynes, neither device resulted in what I considered an improvement.  I have also tried various PCIe Ethernet and USB cards and they all will alter the sound, it's just a matter of what sound signature one is after but these devices make more of a minor difference than a large one.  

 

As for R&D, I am not in a position to say much except that Emile is in constant R&D as he quit his day job as a university-level IT person years ago to do what he is now doing full time.  At his core, Emile will tell you he is a DIY guy because DIY are his roots but his level of curiosity and compulsion are beyond anything I have seen.  During a conversation I had with him once regarding a Monoprice Slimrun Optical USB extender that I had purchased, by the time we finished our conversation, he had gone online and purchased one so that he could try it. 

 

Because of the Extreme's very large chassis, the current Extreme should be capable of handling just about any new motherboard or CPU that becomes available and so almost certainly, it will be upgraded one day.  During my visit to his workshop in Hengelo late last year, I was shocked to see just how many motherboards he had tried that were on his shelves including a motherboard he designed himself that didn't make the cut.  Same thing with CPUs.  He had recently ordered all the latest AMD Epycs to try out including a 64-core CPU that cost 5,000 Euros.  Basically, cost has not been an issue.  He listens to the signature of specific resistors, capacitors, and wire and measures them.  I saw bins of these things.  He makes his own mains cables and interconnects.  He makes his own anti-vibration platforms.  He is even making his own power distribution block comprised of German Panzerholz wood known for its resonant properties as I write this.  When I sent him my SOtM sNH-10G switches so that he could finally listen to what they sound like, with my permission, he tweaked mine and made them better.  He is investigating developing his own software player, his own OS, his own PCIe input and output cards, network switch, and even DAC because he has the ability to.  Not to say he will develop any or all of these things but I know he has interest in being able to control the entire digital process to match the level of the Extreme.  His commitment to R&D is nothing like I have ever seen.

[ASRMichael]

10 hours ago, romaz said:

 

Maybe not the best place for this post but I will try and respond to your questions and comments since Matt brought me into it.  The Extreme, from inception, was a "cost no object" product and represents Emile's best effort based on available technology.  At one time, Emile used to make his own OCXOs and used to provide OCXO boards for other music server manufacturers and so the fact that he has left out high-level clocking in the Extreme has nothing to do with cost.

 

To provide some background on Emile's approach, first and foremost, he listens and his ability to hear is exceptional, almost like a bat.  He said he had his hearing tested and he can still hear to 20kHz.  This is not something I am capable of.  He then tries to correlate what he hears with measurements and he hires an outside firm with very sophisticated measuring equipment to conduct these measurements.  He said he pays something like 100 Euros an hour for these measurements and has spent tens of thousands of Euros on measurements alone.  These measurements are not just limited to RF/EMI, jitter, or phase noise but other forms of noise that he will not fully disclose and he has observed certain patterns that have helped guide him.  With clocking for example, he found that high-level clocking did some good things but also bad things with respect to sound quality and I am in agreement with this.  Having once replaced all the clocks on a motherboard, I found the signature to sound too soft and unnatural.  He was able to figure out what these bad things were based on measurements and consequently figured out a way to achieve the good aspects of clocking without the bad without using expensive clocks at all.

 

The same thing applies to linear regulation.  There are good aspects to it and bad and there are somethings that switching supplies do better.  If you can reign in the bad and are left only with the good, then you go with it and so the Extreme is an anomaly because on paper, you wouldn't think it should sound good at all.  It uses high-power CPUs that generate a lot of electrical noise, stock off-the-shelf motherboards with noisy switching regulators and clocks on board, and no fancy USB board and yet the Extreme is the quietest, fastest, most resolving, and yet most natural sounding music server I have ever heard, easily besting my own DIY efforts and better than any of the commercial servers I have owned or tried in my system and by a very large margin!  Rarely do I speak of a $25k server being high value but I have easily spent more than this already on my numerous builds and have never come close.

 

Can it be improved?  Sure, anything can and I have certainly tweaked the Extreme to my personal preferences.  One of the advantages of the Extreme is that it lends itself to tweaking as it has 4 free PCIe slots.  While I haven't tried the Phoenix, I have tried a maxed out tX-USBultra with REF 10 master clock and Iso-Regen and even with these devices powered by my best power supply from Paul Hynes, neither device resulted in what I considered an improvement.  I have also tried various PCIe Ethernet and USB cards and they all will alter the sound, it's just a matter of what sound signature one is after but these devices make more of a minor difference than a large one.  

 

As for R&D, I am not in a position to say much except that Emile is in constant R&D as he quit his day job as a university-level IT person years ago to do what he is now doing full time.  At his core, Emile will tell you he is a DIY guy because DIY are his roots but his level of curiosity and compulsion are beyond anything I have seen.  During a conversation I had with him once regarding a Monoprice Slimrun Optical USB extender that I had purchased, by the time we finished our conversation, he had gone online and purchased one so that he could try it. 

 

Because of the Extreme's very large chassis, the current Extreme should be capable of handling just about any new motherboard or CPU that becomes available and so almost certainly, it will be upgraded one day.  During my visit to his workshop in Hengelo late last year, I was shocked to see just how many motherboards he had tried that were on his shelves including a motherboard he designed himself that didn't make the cut.  Same thing with CPUs.  He had recently ordered all the latest AMD Epycs to try out including a 64-core CPU that cost 5,000 Euros.  Basically, cost has not been an issue.  He listens to the signature of specific resistors, capacitors, and wire and measures them.  I saw bins of these things.  He makes his own mains cables and interconnects.  He makes his own anti-vibration platforms.  He is even making his own power distribution block comprised of German Panzerholz wood known for its resonant properties as I write this.  When I sent him my SOtM sNH-10G switches so that he could finally listen to what they sound like, with my permission, he tweaked mine and made them better.  He is investigating developing his own software player, his own OS, his own PCIe input and output cards, network switch, and even DAC because he has the ability to.  Not to say he will develop any or all of these things but I know he has interest in being able to control the entire digital process to match the level of the Extreme.  His commitment to R&D is nothing like I have ever seen.

Hi Romaz, thanks for the post, interesting reading. Emile seems like an incredible engineer. Ok..... I'll take my last post back....  But I think we can agree if positive development in SQ happen with OCXO's/PCI/Reclockers etc etc, I'm sure Emile will test them and implement them into his next model.

 

Just one point, I did hear that OCXO clocks do give a signature that was soft and unnatural. I've been sitting on the fence for a while now with regards to installing OCXO's clock on my MB, well until I seen Nenon's recent build where he has implemented PF Ultra clocks on his motherboard  (Albeit not on Dual Xeon CPU) with positive results. 

 

I do apologize to this thread for taking it off topic. 

[Tait]

https://darko.audio/2020/05/innuos-phoenix-usb-reclocker-review/

[One and a half]

For those of use invested in a dual head cable for USB, the Phoenix doesn't cater for that. The only cables that can be used are single ended types. Pity, cause all it needs is a parallel connection for the A side of the +5V and 0V. Other than that, the Phoenix is on the list, although the EtherRegen would come first both connectivity and commercially, for my system.

[Hiker]

On 5/30/2020 at 9:07 AM, One and a half said:

For those of use invested in a dual head cable for USB, the Phoenix doesn't cater for that. The only cables that can be used are single ended types. Pity, cause all it needs is a parallel connection for the A side of the +5V and 0V. Other than that, the Phoenix is on the list, although the EtherRegen would come first both connectivity and commercially, for my system.

I just purchased the Phoenix and been using generic USB cords I’m waiting on delivery of two USB cords the cable manufacturer asked if I needed the 5v line installed that performance of a USB cable would be better without it , would that be true ?

 

 

[One and a half]

4 minutes ago, Hiker said:

I just purchased the Phoenix and been using generic USB cords I’m waiting on delivery of two USB cords the cable manufacturer asked if I needed the 5v line installed that performance of a USB cable would be better without it , would that be true ?

 

 

Unfortunately, that's a very open question with great debate behind it.

 

It depends on the DAC. The +5V is used by the DAC to:

 

a) power up the front end of usb circuitry

b) signal the DAC, that the host is alive and data forthcometh

c) a combo or a null of both a and b

d) Some other obscure reason.

 

If you leave out the 5V supply line and the DAC depends on it, there's zero sound. Bad. Generally the 5V from a computer is as noisy as derived from hell itself and needs to be avoided. In the case of the Phoenix, it might use 5V you need to check with Innuous and your DAC manufacturer. The Phoenix should be above all that, you'd think, huh. Noise is *extremely* difficult to remove as it is very small but has a profound impact on channel separation and stage height/depth from speakers, my personal experience, complicated by cable geometry and electrical characteristics.

 

[Hiker]

9 minutes ago, One and a half said:

Unfortunately, that's a very open question with great debate behind it.

 

It depends on the DAC. The +5V is used by the DAC to:

 

a) power up the front end of usb circuitry

b) signal the DAC, that the host is alive and data forthcometh

c) a combo or a null of both a and b

d) Some other obscure reason.

 

If you leave out the 5V supply line and the DAC depends on it, there's zero sound. Bad. Generally the 5V from a computer is as noisy as derived from hell itself and needs to be avoided. In the case of the Phoenix, it might use 5V you need to check with Innuous and your DAC manufacturer. The Phoenix should be above all that, you'd think, huh. Noise is *extremely* difficult to remove as it is very small but has a profound impact on channel separation and stage height/depth from speakers, my personal experience, complicated by cable geometry and electrical characteristics.

 

Thank you for the reply, I have checked with the dac manufacturer and Innuos, the 5v is not needed in the USB cable .

 

[One and a half]

1 minute ago, Hiker said:

Thank you for the reply, I have checked with the dac manufacturer and Innuos, the 5v is not needed in the USB cable .

 

Great, all good then! 

[austinpop]

4 hours ago, Hiker said:

Thank you for the reply, I have checked with the dac manufacturer and Innuos, the 5v is not needed in the USB cable .

 

I’m trying to parse this. I assume you only mean the cable from the Phoenix to the DAC? This is indeed DAC-dependent.

 

However, I can definitely confirm the cable between the source and the Phoenix needs to have 5V active. 
 

In the parlance of the cable I was using, the Sablon 2020 USB, it needs to be a powered cable. I know this because I also had on hand an unpowered cable, which did not work.

[Superdad]

11 minutes ago, austinpop said:

However, I can definitely confirm the cable between the source and the Phoenix needs to have 5V active. 

I wonder why that is. The Phoenix has its own power supplies—for the USB hub chip and the clock—so what does it need 5VBUS power for?

[ray-dude]

I can't speak to the Phoenix, but as another wrinkle, Chord DACs require Vbus for the initial USB handshake, but after that it can be removed (a neat trick with the switch on the USPCB).

[Hiker]

6 hours ago, austinpop said:

I’m trying to parse this. I assume you only mean the cable from the Phoenix to the DAC? This is indeed DAC-dependent.

 

However, I can definitely confirm the cable between the source and the Phoenix needs to have 5V active. 
 

In the parlance of the cable I was using, the Sablon 2020 USB, it needs to be a powered cable. I know this because I also had on hand an unpowered cable, which did not work.

Yes sir you are correct, I have one USB without the 5v conductor ,

[Dev]

6 hours ago, Superdad said:

I wonder why that is. The Phoenix has its own power supplies—for the USB hub chip and the clock—so what does it need 5VBUS power for?

 

I believe its just for the handshake, just like many other DACs (ex. PS Audio DS). I don't think it will use the 5VBUS to power the chip.

[FrankMA]

I received the Phoenix USB last Sat. Swapped out a tX-USBultra (9v)/Uptone LPS 1.2 for the Phoenix. Had a bit of a handshake issue but a reboot of DAC/Server/Phoenix solved it. Using Phasure Lush I & II USB cables and an older Wireworld Aurora III for a PC.

 

After burning in for 48 hours here are my initial impressions:

• Larger and deeper soundstage
• A few levels of high frequency glare removed
• while at the same time adding a shimmer. In a good way. Really notice the delicacy/accuracy of the cymbals

 

It's early but so far I'm happy and will try to get 100-200 hours on it before critically listening again. And at some point reverting back to the tX for comparison

 

Promising

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Hiker said:

Yes sir you are correct, I have one USB without the 5v conductor ,

 

OK, just wanted to alert you that for the source <-> PhonenixUSB link, an unpowered cable (i.e. with no 5v) may not work. It didn't for me, in my review.

[BigAlMc]

19 hours ago, FrankMA said:

After burning in for 48 hours here are my initial impressions:

• Larger and deeper soundstage
• A few levels of high frequency glare removed
• while at the same time adding a shimmer. In a good way. Really notice the delicacy/accuracy of the cymbals

 

Hey Frank,

 

Congrats on your purchase.

 

Am reading with interest as our systems are similar (as we've discussed before) in terms of SE to Directstream  Sr. (Ignore my signature, it needs updated).

 

Am seriously tempted by the Phoenix too.

 

Can I just check. The SQ differences you described are SE + TX vs SE + Phoenix?

 

i.e. you didn't mean SE vs SE + Phoenix?

 

Cheers,

Alan

 

[FrankMA]

Hi Al - hope all is well. I was comparing :

 

Current setup: EtherRegen (stock PS) B Side > Innuos MKII SE > Phasure Lush I > Tx/LPS1.2 > Phasure Lush II > PSA DS Sr

New: EtherRegen (stock PS) B Side > Innuos MKII SE > Phasure Lush I >Phoenix USB > Phasure Lush II > PSA DS Sr

 

 

 

 

[Hiker]

20 hours ago, FrankMA said:

I received the Phoenix USB last Sat. Swapped out a tX-USBultra (9v)/Uptone LPS 1.2 for the Phoenix. Had a bit of a handshake issue but a reboot of DAC/Server/Phoenix solved it. Using Phasure Lush I & II USB cables and an older Wireworld Aurora III for a PC.

 

After burning in for 48 hours here are my initial impressions:

• Larger and deeper soundstage
• A few levels of high frequency glare removed
• while at the same time adding a shimmer. In a good way. Really notice the delicacy/accuracy of the cymbals

 

It's early but so far I'm happy and will try to get 100-200 hours on it before critically listening again. And at some point reverting back to the tX for comparison

 

Promising

Frank congratulations on the Phoenix , I found with some exceptional recordings , just a quick example ripped CDs of Tonian Labs Drums and Bells along with XLOs FORS Master Sound recording of Belanger & Bisson is eye popping for a lack of a better phrase, so realistic sounding I never heard before , not with my system not until the Innuos Zenith server and Phoenix were introduced into my home. Love it. 

 

 

[BigAlMc]

1 hour ago, FrankMA said:

Hi Al - hope all is well. I was comparing :

 

Current setup: EtherRegen (stock PS) B Side > Innuos MKII SE > Phasure Lush I > Tx/LPS1.2 > Phasure Lush II > PSA DS Sr

New: EtherRegen (stock PS) B Side > Innuos MKII SE > Phasure Lush I >Phoenix USB > Phasure Lush II > PSA DS Sr

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Frank,

 

That's what I hoped and what my wallet feared 😉

 

I'm all good thanks mate. Hope all's well with you.

 

Looking forward to your impressions after more burn-in time.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[FrankMA]

3 hours ago, Hiker said:

I found with some exceptional recordings , just a quick example ripped CDs of Tonian Labs Drums and Bells along with XLOs FORS Master Sound recording of Belanger & Bisson is eye popping for a lack of a better phrase, so realistic sounding I never heard before , not with my system not until the Innuos Zenith server and Phoenix were introduced into my home. Love it. 

 

 

Thanks @Hiker. will check those recommendations out

[FrankMA]

3 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

That's what I hoped and what my wallet feared 😉

Brutal hobby Alan.

Since I was so impressed by the Phoenix I had to order an AQ Hurricane PC for it. One of the best bang for your buck power cord's out there (and I have Shunyata, Triode Wire Labs, Nordost, Wireworld, PS Audio). Every improvement leads to more spending

 

The pain never ends