FredM Posted September 29, 2019 Share Posted September 29, 2019 The new Innuos PhoenixUSB reclocker has been mentioned several times here on AS. I’ll try to give a brief impression. After hearing it at the XFI Show I reckon the Phoenix deserves its own topic. Please understand that show conditions apply: meaning an unknown room, components and music. Nevertheless thanks to a direct comparison with/without Phoenix a first impression is definitely possible (before the actual comparison I was the room for about 30 minutes to get familiar with the setup/room). The base setup was already quite impressive, consisting of an Innuos Zenith server, a Chord Blu MK2 (acting as a m-scaler), the Chord Dave DAC, Chord Ultima mono amps and ATC SCM (100ASLT?) speakers. During the demo @nvitorino (dis)connected the Phoenix between the Zenith and Blu MK2 back and forth. The difference using the PhoenixUSB is noticeable within a second, hands down. The pictured stage gets much wider and deeper, as if the artists are playing on a bigger podium. More 3D if you like, as if a quality wide angle less was used. I also thought the sound had a bit more punch with less decay when the PhoenixUSB was added. So yes, it made a positive impression. I also fancy the keen addition/upgrade approach, with a reclocker board, OCXO clock ánd two LPS’s in one box. It was a nice and very useful day at XFI, lots to see/hear/learn in a relaxed atmosphere. kennyb123 1 Link to comment
FredM Posted September 29, 2019 Author Share Posted September 29, 2019 Some other info about the Phoenix USB in other topics (reply’s from Nino): “The PhoenixUSB contains the same USB reclocker board design as the Statement plus two linear power supplies dedicated to USB, just like the Statement. On our tests, the PhoenixUSB does not improve the USB reclocker output of the Statement. In fact, there seems to be a slight degradation due to the extra cabling required. The PhoenixUSB is intended mainly for ZENith/ZENith SE users who would like to get their sound quality closer to a Statement. You can use the reclocker though with any USB output from any streamer or computer, it's not specific to Innuos.” and “There is still a difference between the ZENith + PhoenixUSB and the Statement as the Statement is more than just adding a reclocker board. Some thought the difference was considerable and others thought it was more subtle but clearly there. Do take into consideration that the SE is superior to the ZENith MK3 so it will be closer to the Statement than the ZENith. But not even theStatement board USB output connected to the PhoenixUSB sounds like the reclocked USB output of the Statement - this is where short signal paths make a difference... This is something I write based on the feedback of a few hundred visitors that heard the comparison at RMAF, X-Fi and WestDeutsche Shows. Imaintain my opinion that SE users will be very happy with theimprovement the PhoenixUSB considering the investment of getting a PhoenixUSB vs selling the SE and buying a Statement. As always, if you have the chance, have a listen for yourselves so you can make your own decision.” with: Link to comment
thyname Posted October 1, 2019 Share Posted October 1, 2019 Any idea when this will start shipping to actual customers ? Link to comment
FredM Posted October 2, 2019 Author Share Posted October 2, 2019 I don’t know when the Phoenix will appear in the wild. Perhaps someone knows? Looking forward to a comparison with a full blown SOtM tX USB Ultra setup (with master clock and psu’s): As the Phoenix doesn’t improve on a Statement due to the shorter signal paths/less cables as the main reason, I really wonder how this €2500 one box reclocker differs from €2500++ SOtM setup, which isn’t very cable shy. Innuos could have a real winner. Besides comparing the effect of the Phoenix at XFI, shortly the Blu MK2 was removed and added in the chain (with the Phoenix still in place). Still, take it with a pinch of salt given show conditions and a very short comparison: but imho the Phoenix had a bigger impact in the sonic presentation (also different, as they both have a specific function: reclocker/upsampler) Gavin1977 1 Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted October 2, 2019 Share Posted October 2, 2019 I guess that's more or less like by the end of 2019? http://www.audioreference.co.nz/product/innuos-pheonex-usb-reclocker Quote NEW PRODUCT - DUE FOR RELEASE NOVEMBER 2019 Blu MK2 itself should be really prone to RF noise to begin with, and then its built-in SMPS could also pollute the other components in the entire chain. BTW, SGM Extreme should be considered one of the best source components out there while this <$400 isolator from Intona with two pieces of their own flagship USB cables (plus the power of another quality PSU) still managed to offer sonic improvement https://pro.intona.eu/en/products/buy/7055/7055-B https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/intona-usb-2-0-3-0-isolators-2019versions.28439/ In other words, it's gonna be awesome to try PhoenixUSB with SGM Extreme as well as Intona with Statement. Finally we could even try powering that micro USB input (DC 5V only without data) of Intona with USB output of PhoenixUSB. Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/rmaf-innuos-demo https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/innuos-new-re-clocker Quote I was at RMAF and heard the Zenith MKIII, then heard the Zenith MK III with the Phoenix reclocker and then heard the Statement. I sat through that demo 3 or 4 times and the Phoenix reclocker made a huge difference and greatly improved the Zenith MK III, so much so that the Zenith plus the Phoenix made me wonder why anyone would buy a statement. Do you have any impressions to share? It's confirmed to be coming in mid-November http://www.innuos.com/uploads/cms/docs/Innuos_PhoenixUSB_webFlyer.pdf https://www.facebook.com/NBTStudio2017/posts/741869502944578 Link to comment
nbpf Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 This is disappointing, I thought the Zenith MKIII would come with an excellent, dedicated USB output! Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 I know it's kinda silly but connecting bus-powered USB devices to PhoenixUSB could be fun, Statement-level linear power supplies and all that http://jlsounds.com/i2soverusb.html http://www.soekris.dk/dac1321.html http://www.singxer.com/pd.jsp?id=72 https://www.rme-audio.de/babyface-pro.html https://matrix-digi.com/en/products/314.html https://www.engineered.ch/products/usb-interface-1/ nbpf 1 Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 2 hours ago, nbpf said: This is disappointing, I thought the Zenith MKIII would come with an excellent, dedicated USB output! The Mk3 was likely designed hit a price point. Its USB output is as probably good as they could achieve within those price constraints - and still "excellent" relative to other streaming solutions priced at or below the Mk3's price. I suspect there were also physical space constraints. There's not even enough room inside the chassis to have included additional power supplies. A another chassis would have been required. I don't believe the Statement had price constraints. It's Innous' statement product - and it includes their best USB implementation. The Phoenix brings that USB implementation to the Mk3. Or said another way, the Mk3 would have had to have been priced a lot higher to include this USB implementation. Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
nbpf Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 34 minutes ago, kennyb123 said: The Mk3 was likely designed hit a price point. Its USB output is as probably good as they could achieve within those price constraints - and still "excellent" relative to other streaming solutions priced at or below the Mk3's price. I suspect there were also physical space constraints. There's not even enough room inside the chassis to have included additional power supplies. A another chassis would have been required. I don't believe the Statement had price constraints. It's Innous' statement product - and it includes their best USB implementation. The Phoenix brings that USB implementation to the Mk3. Or said another way, the Mk3 would have had to have been priced a lot higher to include this USB implementation. You are probably right. Still, it is a matter of fact that the digital-to-analog conversion takes place in another box and that, in principle, it would be easy to make such conversion fully independent of the quality of the USB feed by storing a whole track (or even playlist) locally in the DAC and then turning off the feed before starting replay. From this perspective, showcasing how the Phoenix can improve the Zenith MKIII seems a rather silly marketing strategy to me. Perhaps it would be more meaningful to show how the Phoenix can improve the USB output of a Raspberry Pi. Just my two cents, of course ... Link to comment
kennyb123 Posted November 1, 2019 Share Posted November 1, 2019 15 minutes ago, nbpf said: From this perspective, showcasing how the Phoenix can improve the Zenith MKIII seems a rather silly marketing strategy to me. Perhaps it would be more meaningful to show how the Phoenix can improve the USB output of a Raspberry Pi. Just my two cents, of course ... I thought so at first as it seemed the Phoenix would cannibalize sales of the Statement. But there are a heck a lot more people who can afford the Mk3. The Phoenix enables them to take incremental steps in that direction. I believe the Statement's ethernet implementation will also be offered as standalone product as well - furthering the incremental steps one can take with the Mk3. I'm not aware of any of Innuos' competitors offering a path forward like this. The Phoenix makes the Mk3 a more appealing purchase. Sure the Phoenix can improve the Raspberry Pi and other brands of streamers .. but will it make them sound more like the Statement? That's more assured if the starting point is the Mk3. I think the other thing at play here is Innous capitalizing on the success of the Statement. It's not simply about improving USB for the sake of it. It's about moving the Mk3 closer to the Statement's level of performance. nbpf 1 Digital: Sonore opticalModule > Uptone EtherRegen > Shunyata Sigma Ethernet > Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC < Mutec REF10 SE120 Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali v1 and Typhon x1 power conditioners, Shunyata Delta v2 and QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation and Infinity power cords, QSA Lanedri Gamma Revelation XLR interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD 60 speaker cables, GIK bass traps, ASC Isothermal tube traps, Stillpoints Aperture panels, Quadraspire SVT rack, PGGB 256 Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted November 2, 2019 Share Posted November 2, 2019 Statement's USB board is connected to one of those USB headers on the motherboard, therefore the performance might somewhat depend on the quality of a few "unremarkable" wires going between both ends. It's also placed fairly close to the motherboard inside the same chassis, not physically isolated from each other and therefore such proximity could be both a blessing and a curse. In Phoenix's case, we could actually enjoy more flexibility since we're given the opportunity to introduce two USB cables. Interesting options are available for the connection between Phoenix and the source components, relatively expensive USB extenders could be found below and we'll be able to take advantage of fiber optic connections that are similar to what AudioWise OPTO•DX could offer https://www.icronshop.com/usb-extenders http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-ranger-2324/ http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-ranger-2344/ Of course it's a pain to power its 24V DC input since Poweradd PP2 could only go up to 20V, and then we'll also need to add one more USB cable. Recently this optical USB cable (designed for audiophiles) from China was released and the price is starting at 200 bucks for 1M https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=605879469650 Not adding too much to the cost of acquiring the Phoenix while providing quite a bit of isolation, not a bad choice if we weren't in the mood for getting another pricey USB cable. They're already selling their HDMI cables on Amazon so keep an eye on that new product in the future https://www.amazon.com/s?k=FIBBR It's a lotta cash to add this in front of Phoenix but powering Pink Faun USB bridge + Ultra OCXO option with Dr. Sean Jacobs' DC3 might push the envelop even further https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/sheets/PinkFaunUltra25MHz.pdf https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/44-2915-usb-bridge.html#/193-additional_clock_for_bridge-ultra_ocxo/195-bracket_height-792_mm_3118_inch Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 This is the question for me!! as I ponder...... Options Pink Faun USB + Ultra OCXO + SJ - DC3 Or Innuos phoenix (Effectively same PSU as SJ DC3) + need to buy another USB cable Both options similarly priced... So I keep pondering...... Link to comment
nvitorino Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 41 minutes ago, ASRMichael said: This is the question for me!! as I ponder...... Options Pink Faun USB + Ultra OCXO + SJ - DC3 Or Innuos phoenix (Effectively same PSU as SJ DC3) + need to buy another USB cable Both options similarly priced... So I keep pondering...... Hi everyone, Just a very quick remark as I keep seeing online that the LPSU on the Phoenix/Statement is the same as the DC3. This is not the case. Not only the components are different, the design is also different, especially the one on the PhoenixUSB. The current used there is low so the LPSU design is optimized for that - this a new design from Sean. All LPSUs designed by Sean on our systems are designed in collaboration with Innuos and does include design tweaks. Also do bear in mind that there are 2 LPSUs on the PhoenixUSB - One exclusively for the OCXO oscillator and one for the USB board, which is then further regulated with 3x LT3045 for independent voltages to the USB chip. In the end, best thing is to actually have a listen and check what sounds best to you... Decisions, decisions... 🙂 Link to comment
nvitorino Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 On 11/2/2019 at 1:21 AM, seeteeyou said: Statement's USB board is connected to one of those USB headers on the motherboard, therefore the performance might somewhat depend on the quality of a few "unremarkable" wires going between both ends. It's also placed fairly close to the motherboard inside the same chassis, not physically isolated from each other and therefore such proximity could be both a blessing and a curse. In Phoenix's case, we could actually enjoy more flexibility since we're given the opportunity to introduce two USB cables. Interesting options are available for the connection between Phoenix and the source components, relatively expensive USB extenders could be found below and we'll be able to take advantage of fiber optic connections that are similar to what AudioWise OPTO•DX could offer https://www.icronshop.com/usb-extenders http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-ranger-2324/ http://www.icron.com/products/icron-brand/usb-extenders/fiber/usb-2-0-ranger-2344/ Of course it's a pain to power its 24V DC input since Poweradd PP2 could only go up to 20V, and then we'll also need to add one more USB cable. Recently this optical USB cable (designed for audiophiles) from China was released and the price is starting at 200 bucks for 1M https://detail.tmall.com/item.htm?id=605879469650 Not adding too much to the cost of acquiring the Phoenix while providing quite a bit of isolation, not a bad choice if we weren't in the mood for getting another pricey USB cable. They're already selling their HDMI cables on Amazon so keep an eye on that new product in the future https://www.amazon.com/s?k=FIBBR It's a lotta cash to add this in front of Phoenix but powering Pink Faun USB bridge + Ultra OCXO option with Dr. Sean Jacobs' DC3 might push the envelop even further https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/sheets/PinkFaunUltra25MHz.pdf https://www.pinkfaun.com/shop/bridge/44-2915-usb-bridge.html#/193-additional_clock_for_bridge-ultra_ocxo/195-bracket_height-792_mm_3118_inch Regarding optical USB connections, you need to take into consideration how noisy is the process of turning the light into an electrical signal. Whilst we haven't done scientific tests, whenever we tried USB optical isolators between a Statement and a DAC, we consistently obtained worse sound quality. You will need to compare the noise floor of the source to the optical transceiver itself and check which is lower to verify if you will get a net benefit of using optical isolation or not. Link to comment
FredM Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, ASRMichael said: This is the question for me!! as I ponder...... Options Pink Faun USB + Ultra OCXO + SJ - DC3 Or Innuos phoenix (Effectively same PSU as SJ DC3) + need to buy another USB cable Both options similarly priced... So I keep pondering...... or depending on your DAC input preference, the upcoming Pinkfaun Scion (Ultra OCXO and internal LPSU), with other digital outputs Link to comment
rickca Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 hour ago, FredM said: the upcoming Pinkfaun Scion (Ultra OCXO and internal LPSU Where can I find some details about the Pink Faun Scion? Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
FredM Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 hours ago, rickca said: Where can I find some details about the Pink Faun Scion? Keep an eye on the Pink Faun site, when I see something I’ll share it (in another topic). I would guess the Pink Faun Scion is earlier available then the Sonnet Hermes (which is also on my shortlist for non-usb output). Link to comment
rickca Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 1 minute ago, FredM said: Keep an eye on the Pink Faun site When was the Scion supposed to be available? Are you saying Scion has no USB output? There must be some discussion about Scion out there somewhere, isn't there? Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
FredM Posted November 8, 2019 Author Share Posted November 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, rickca said: When was the Scion supposed to be available? Are you saying Scion has no USB output? There must be some discussion about Scion out there somewhere, isn't there? Haven’t seen an eta, I have been in contact with PF / Jord, but it’s not to me to release anything. A separate topic would be nice, so we can stick to the Phoenix here. rickca 1 Link to comment
rickca Posted November 8, 2019 Share Posted November 8, 2019 37 minutes ago, FredM said: A separate topic would be nice, so we can stick to the Phoenix here. OK, one last post about Scion from way back in March. https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/43629-pink-faun-216/?do=findComment&comment=934546 Pareto Audio AMD 7700 Server --> Berkeley Alpha USB --> Jeff Rowland Aeris --> Jeff Rowland 625 S2 --> Focal Utopia 3 Diablos with 2 x Focal Electra SW 1000 BE subs i7-6700K/Windows 10 --> EVGA Nu Audio Card --> Focal CMS50's Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 Just in time for Christmas then? https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/innuos-phoenix-usb.28932/#post-608947 Quote It'll begin shipping first week of December. We have one coming then. Link to comment
ASRMichael Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 Has anyone bought Innuos Phoenix yet? Thoughts? Link to comment
seeteeyou Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Some sources mentioned November, others said 1st week of December, and then we don't even have anything close to an official date to begin with. IMHO it's getting even more difficult to tell if Dr. Sean Jacobs (Custom HiFi Cables = one man show + maybe another employee?) as well as the source of his transformers were actually able to keep up with the demand or otherwise, it's kinda fun to take a look at some balance sheets even if they weren't audited https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/07478867/filing-history Even more fun to check them out, no wonder it's taking forever to build some of the best stuff https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08649128/filing-history https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC622187/filing-history Not sure about the warranty if anything were happening to Dr. Jacobs, though it's a relieve to realize that he's relatively young. Most likely he's still doing fine in 2 years given his age while his company should be growing strong http://www.innuos.com/en/go/faqs-warranty Link to comment
thyname Posted December 21, 2019 Share Posted December 21, 2019 There are reports in other sites that Phoenix USB is being shipped. One buyer in Germany received it two days ago. A US based dealer said his units are shipped and en route to California Link to comment
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