Innuos PhoenixUSB

[Hiker]

3 hours ago, FrankMA said:

Thanks @Hiker. will check those recommendations out

Frank I only mentioned those two examples because I just played them back to a friend just prior to posting it here .

 The Tonian Labs Drums & Bells isn’t too well known however played back on most any system the first 20 seconds into it will astonish anyone .
Years ago I had to know why this recording was so realistic sounding and to my complete surprise the recording engineer responded to my email , he told me his studio has nothing special equipment wise other then some modified recording microphone’s from a collection valued well into the 6 figures.  
 

I had the Innuos dealer rip this cd for part of the audition and demonstration of the Phoenix , played back through the big Wilson speakers he jumped out of his seat just seconds into it , there’s something your not expecting at all and it got me too.
 

And for beautifully done realistic vocals the Balanger & Bisson Conversation CD along with good music is up there with the best in recording’s.

[Vangelis]

I was ready to push the button on a Zenith Mk III and a Phoenix. I’ve kind of paused that after reading John Darko‘s new review on the Phoenix. In the review, he felt the Phoenix  brought a positive improvement to the sound with the Zenth MKII SE but when mated with the Zenith MK III he felt there was a softening effect that diminished the resolution in the area of drive and impact. I would anticipate that the Phoenix would reduce a lot of hash and noise. Obviously with more refinement there less grain and harshness, but that did not appear to be what he was describing.  Has anybody else experienced I softening of the musical edges with the Phoenix mated to Zenith Mark III? 

[Hiker]

1 hour ago, Vangelis said:

I was ready to push the button on a Zenith Mk III and a Phoenix. I’ve kind of paused that after reading John Darko‘s new review on the Phoenix. In the review, he felt the Phoenix  brought a positive improvement to the sound with the Zenth MKII SE but when mated with the Zenith MK III he felt there was a softening effect that diminished the resolution in the area of drive and impact. I would anticipate that the Phoenix would reduce a lot of hash and noise. Obviously with more refinement there less grain and harshness, but that did not appear to be what he was describing.  Has anybody else experienced I softening of the musical edges with the Phoenix mated to Zenith Mark III? 

You read that about the Zenith mk3 in Darko latest review of the Phoenix? Hmm  , i re-read that review , was it someone else’s review ?

[thyname]

1 hour ago, Vangelis said:

I was ready to push the button on a Zenith Mk III and a Phoenix. I’ve kind of paused that after reading John Darko‘s new review on the Phoenix. In the review, he felt the Phoenix  brought a positive improvement to the sound with the Zenth MKII SE but when mated with the Zenith MK III he felt there was a softening effect that diminished the resolution in the area of drive and impact. I would anticipate that the Phoenix would reduce a lot of hash and noise. Obviously with more refinement there less grain and harshness, but that did not appear to be what he was describing.  Has anybody else experienced I softening of the musical edges with the Phoenix mated to Zenith Mark III? 

Do you already have a ZENith MK3? That would be your first step. You can always try or buy the PhoenixUSB later.

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, Vangelis said:

when mated with the Zenith MK III he felt there was a softening effect that diminished the resolution in the area of drive and impact.

I didn’t have a MkIII for my review, but I’d be surprised if this were the case.

[Vangelis]

1 hour ago, Hiker said:

You read that about the Zenith mk3 in Darko latest review of the Phoenix? Hmm  , i re-read that review , was it someone else’s review ?

No, it was penned by John Darko, his actual comment was “Interestingly, the Phoenix pushed the ZENith MKIII’s sound signature further from the Statement’s which, sans Phoenix, offered more sparkle and low-level jump factor”.

[kennyb123]

The power supply in the Mk3 was designed by Sean Jacobs as we all know.  But it was assembled by Innuos.  I’m pretty sure it’s the same for the Statement.  The SE was limited to 100 because SJ assembled the supplies too.  Why do I mention that? Because the Mk3 is closer to having been cut from the same cloth as the Statement.  So like Rajiv, I’d be really surprised of this was the case.

 

i should point out as well that Darko in his video review of the Zen Mk3 mentioned that he struggled hearing a difference between it and the SE (I’m paraphrasing).   I’m a huge fan of Darko’s as his reviews are interesting and fun.  But there’s no way I’d base a purchasing decision on a point he made in one of his reviews unless it was aligned with what other trusted ears report.  Innuos demos the Phoenix with Zenith Mk3 against a Statement.  Every person who’s heard this mentions being astonished by how much closer the Phoenix brings the Zenith to the Statement’s sound quality.

[Blackmorec]

I have to say that Darko’s comment is rather counter-intuitive, given that the Phoenix’s additional power supply rails, 3 ppb clock and optimised circuitry’s main contributions are;

• improved timing, rhythmic drive and rhythmic interplay
• greater treble extension (sparkle, shimmer and transparency)
• Improved microdynamics (initial note percussion, bloom and decay)
• Soundstage focus and specificity

All of which make the music far more engaging. 

Of course there are other variables....for example the extra USB cable

 

The Statement basically has 2 USB outputs....the standard output from the mother board, as implemented on the MkIII and SE and the ‘super’ USB with enhanced PS, clock and circuitry. It’s possible to run a DAC from either, so its easy to compare in order to hear what the enhanced USB port’s contribution is.  Phoenix’s contribution will be very similar as its more or less the self same package. For me, adding a Phoenix to a Zenith MkIII physically moves the MkIII closer to the Statements USB implementation so I fail to see how doing that can move its sound signature further away from the Statement’s, unless something else has been introduced into the equation....for example another, less accomplished USB cable 

[Vangelis]

On 6/4/2020 at 7:29 PM, thyname said:

Do you already have a ZENith MK3? That would be your first step. You can always try or buy the PhoenixUSB later.

The fact that the Zenith SE MK2 was introduced prior the Zenith MK3 and is superior to the MK3 never made much sense to on a performance and marketing strategy. The MK3 could have been as good as the SE and the difference is only a few thousand dollars.  It’s a little frustrating that their isn’t a Zenith that sounds as good as the older SE to  partner with Phoenix now and the Statement is 6-7 thousand more than a Zenith MK3 and Phoenix combo. I just missed a used SE that sold for $3700 by a day ago. 

 

On 6/4/2020 at 7:29 PM, thyname said:

Do you already have a ZENith MK3? That would be your first step. You can always try or buy the PhoenixUSB later.

[Hiker]

7 hours ago, Vangelis said:

The fact that the Zenith SE MK2 was introduced prior the Zenith MK3 and is superior to the MK3 never made much sense to on a performance and marketing strategy. The MK3 could have been as good as the SE and the difference is only a few thousand dollars.  It’s a little frustrating that their isn’t a Zenith that sounds as good as the older SE to  partner with Phoenix now and the Statement is 6-7 thousand more than a Zenith MK3 and Phoenix combo. I just missed a used SE that sold for $3700 by a day ago. 

 

John Darko compared the Zenith 3 and the once flagship SE 2 apparently for two days , it’s all there if you listened to what he said , as a owner of the Zenith 3 and Phoenix I would suggest you go to a Innuos dealer and arrange to take a Zenith 3 home to audition in your own system then borrow a Phoenix.

I asked , the SE 2 is obsolete with no future upgrades will be offered according to a dealer however future upgrades will be offered with current line up of servers once a suitable North American rep can be found .

The purchase of a Zenith 3 was a good solid move at up grading the sound quality of my system the Phoenix added another leap forward, listen for yourself.

 

 

[Vangelis]

5 hours ago, Hiker said:

John Darko compared the Zenith 3 and the once flagship SE 2 apparently for two days , it’s all there if you listened to what he said , as a owner of the Zenith 3 and Phoenix I would suggest you go to a Innuos dealer and arrange to take a Zenith 3 home to audition in your own system then borrow a Phoenix.

I asked , the SE 2 is obsolete with no future upgrades will be offered according to a dealer however future upgrades will be offered with current line up of servers once a suitable North American rep can be found .

The purchase of a Zenith 3 was a good solid move at up grading the sound quality of my system the Phoenix added another leap forward, listen for yourself.

 

 

It’s a little surprising that Innuos will no longer supporting any SE upgrades considering its a product that just cycled two years ago. I would imagine the coming new Innuos OS will still load into the SE, if that’s not the case, there will be some very unhappy SE owners. The new OS is supposed to sound better. If there were some other potential upgrades coming to the Mark III I would be more likey purchase now. 
 

 I live in a very rural area. The drive to nearest dealer would be a 12 Hour road trip, so not too practical for an audition. I think purchasing a Innuos with out an audition is a pretty safe leap of faith.  I’ve read so much about the Innous that I'm confident it would sound better than either the SOtM sMS Ultra or Sonore UltraRenu which are my bench marks I need to eclipse.

[BigAlMc]

The SE was simply a "Special Edition" of the Zenith line. But the demand and acclaim it got pleasantly surprised Innuos who went on to work on the Statement.

 

Personally, I think they should consider doing more SE units. But given some of the functionality that went into the SE has trickled down into the MKIII making the MKIII closer to the SE I can see the logic for not.

 

Likewise there is the Phoenix that takes the SE or MKII/MKIII closer to the Statement.

 

So from a hardware perspective I think that Innuos have offered a reasonable range of options. You're struggling to buy a pre-loved SE but that's not surprising given there are only 100 of them out in the world.

 

I think the comment about no upgrades for the SE referred to hardware upgrades. Not that surprising given the Phoenix is essentially just that.

 

The SE meanwhile should continue to receive software upgrades the same way the MKII, MKIIIs, Statements and Zen Minis will.

 

FWIW I think a MKIII should comfortably beat an UltraRendu or SOtM sMS Ultra. But that stuff can be system dependant.

 

Cheers,

Alan

[Hiker]

1 hour ago, Vangelis said:

It’s a little surprising that Innuos will no longer supporting any SE upgrades considering its a product that just cycled two years ago. I would imagine the coming new Innuos OS will still load into the SE, if that’s not the case, there will be some very unhappy SE owners. The new OS is supposed to sound better. If there were some other potential upgrades coming to the Mark III I would be more likey purchase now. 
 

 I live in a very rural area. The drive to nearest dealer would be a 12 Hour road trip, so not too practical for an audition. I think purchasing a Innuos with out an audition is a pretty safe leap of faith.  I’ve read so much about the Innous that I'm confident it would sound better than either the SOtM sMS Ultra or Sonore UltraRenu which are my bench marks I need to eclipse.

Vangelis Bigaimc makes some good points to comment to your reply myself prior to any interest with Innuos my first gripe was the cheap use of folded aluminum chassis and the use of USB only turned me completely off the brand .

However some online feed back got my interest and after listening to the Zenith 3 my gripes faded and finally going back to John Darko's comment’s of comparison of the LE and Zenith 3 told me Innuos proprietary innovations move quickly.

[FrankMA]

Zenith has never been USB only as far as I know. Also has a Ethernet streamer out

[kennyb123]

5 hours ago, Vangelis said:

I live in a very rural area. The drive to nearest dealer would be a 12 Hour road trip, so not too practical for an audition. I think purchasing a Innuos with out an audition is a pretty safe leap of faith.  I’ve read so much about the Innous that I'm confident it would sound better than either the SOtM sMS Ultra or Sonore UltraRenu which are my bench marks I need to eclipse.

 

I took a leap of faith to purchase my Zenith Mk2 - but it was a short leap because I elected to purchase a dealer demo at a good savings.  That reduced the risk as I likely could have sold it for as much as I paid for it.  It easily beat what I was using prior to that (ISO Regen/LPS-1.2, microRendu 1.4/LPS-1.2 Mac mini w/MMK/JS-2).

 

My guess is that the two servers you mention would need be powered by pretty good power supplies to compete with the Zenith Mk3.  

 

I would choose the Zenith Mk3 over the two servers you mention as I have limited shelf space and I abhor clutter.  Also I think the Zenith Mk3 is more in the class of the Sonore Signature Rendu SE than the ultraRendu.  I don't think you could go wrong with either choice.

 

[thyname]

In all honesty... speaking as a Statement owner and a previous Zenith MK3 owner.... add a PhoenixUSB to a ZENith MK3, and you are all set!

 

Innuos is an outstanding company with extremely innovative products 

[FrankMA]

On 6/1/2020 at 5:53 PM, FrankMA said:

I received the Phoenix USB last Sat. Swapped out a tX-USBultra (9v)/Uptone LPS 1.2 for the Phoenix. Had a bit of a handshake issue but a reboot of DAC/Server/Phoenix solved it. Using Phasure Lush I & II USB cables and an older Wireworld Aurora III for a PC.

 

After burning in for 48 hours here are my initial impressions:

• Larger and deeper soundstage
• A few levels of high frequency glare removed
• while at the same time adding a shimmer. In a good way. Really notice the delicacy/accuracy of the cymbals

 

It's early but so far I'm happy and will try to get 100-200 hours on it before critically listening again. And at some point reverting back to the tX for comparison

 

Promising

 

At about 250 hours I switched back to the tX after extended listening to the Phoenix. Whoa. Less dynamic. Constricted soundstage. Duller.

 

Back to the Phoenix for good. The other things I noticed in addition to my initial observations was it seems quieter/less noise. Blacker backgrounds. Separation of instruments.  Really nice upgrade

I also changed out the older Wireworld for a Triode Wire Labs which improved the tonal balance quite a bit

 

I am having a bit of trouble with my Lush II cable after the Phoenix. Can't seem to get it to work unless it's before (MKII>Phoenix). Thought the Phoenix had the 5v. Or maybe it's something else. Would the Lush II config have a bearing on this (IE config that bypasses the 5v)?

 

 

[johndoe21ro]

9 hours ago, FrankMA said:

 

At about 250 hours I switched back to the tX after extended listening to the Phoenix. Whoa. Less dynamic. Constricted soundstage. Duller.

 

Back to the Phoenix for good. The other things I noticed in addition to my initial observations was it seems quieter/less noise. Blacker backgrounds. Separation of instruments.  Really nice upgrade

I also changed out the older Wireworld for a Triode Wire Labs which improved the tonal balance quite a bit

 

I am having a bit of trouble with my Lush II cable after the Phoenix. Can't seem to get it to work unless it's before (MKII>Phoenix). Thought the Phoenix had the 5v. Or maybe it's something else. Would the Lush II config have a bearing on this (IE config that bypasses the 5v)?

 

 

As far as I'm concerned the tX-USBultra doesn't mate well with the LPS1.2. I know this because I used to have this pair in my system. All PH linear power supplies (I've tried SR-3, SR-4 and SR-5) and MPAudio sound better than the UpTone power supply... So it might not be the best comparison to make!

[FrankMA]

Unfortunately this is the only comparison I can make. Other than the tX with the supplied PS which is inferior to the Uptone. You are probably right but the PH's are significantly more costly and should sound better

 

I do have a Farad Super 3 on the way for the ER but it is 7V

 

Either way the Phoenix blows away the tX/Uptone combo. O course at double the cost as well

 

[jacquesr]

Anyone with a Phoenix in Montréal or Canada?

[BigAlMc]

On 6/14/2020 at 12:10 PM, FrankMA said:

Either way the Phoenix blows away the tX/Uptone combo

 

Trigger pulled 😀

 

Looking forward to hearing this bad boy myself.

 

[Tait]

I've had the Phoenix for the last couple of weeks now and it's as good as all the reviews and early adopters have described.

 

I'm using mine with KEF LS50 active speakers and a MK2 Zenith and the improvement is not subtle.

 

Soundstage has improved by quite some margin, instruments now seem to have their own space; the noise floor has dropped as I'm hearing things which I've never heard before; timing has improved (feets tapping a lot more!); The top end has a lovely shimmer to it.

 

Yes it's expensive, but having listened to it for a few weeks now, I can say it's the best upgrade I've made.

[FrankMA]

14 hours ago, BigAlMc said:

 

Trigger pulled 😀

 

Looking forward to hearing this bad boy myself.

 

Looking forward to hearing your impressions Al

[FrankMA]

On 6/13/2020 at 7:39 AM, FrankMA said:

 

At about 250 hours I switched back to the tX after extended listening to the Phoenix. Whoa. Less dynamic. Constricted soundstage. Duller.

 

Back to the Phoenix for good. The other things I noticed in addition to my initial observations was it seems quieter/less noise. Blacker backgrounds. Separation of instruments.  Really nice upgrade

I also changed out the older Wireworld for a Triode Wire Labs which improved the tonal balance quite a bit

 

I am having a bit of trouble with my Lush II cable after the Phoenix. Can't seem to get it to work unless it's before (MKII>Phoenix). Thought the Phoenix had the 5v. Or maybe it's something else. Would the Lush II config have a bearing on this (IE config that bypasses the 5v)?

 

 

I finally did get the Lush 2 to work from Phoenix to DAC. Numerous reboots. Needed a longer cable to accommodate the Phoenix's new location so I ordered a 2nd Lush 2

[BigAlMc]

In da house!

 

(Disgracefully on the floor 😬wedged in beside a seldom used PS4. I know its a travesty but UPS arrived, I was excited 😃but I was really busy with work 😑. Rearranging the rack is a weekend task.)

 

Initial out the box listening impressions are something like more sparkle and energy. Dunno, its been a long day/week. But there's an energy I really like. 3 hours burn in tho.

 

Cheers,

Alan