Euphony OS w/Stylus player setup and issues thread

[davide256]

 

7 hours ago, austinpop said:

Indeed. To reiterate - only use the "Copy app data to RAM" flag for the specific case where:

1. you're booting off ejectable media like USB stick, AND
2. you're running endpoint services like Roon Bridge, StylusEP, Squeezelite, or NAA.

Using this flag for running Roon Server or Stylus is not something I'd recommend, due to the crippled functionality.

 

Avoid the "Copy app data to RAM" option like the plague if you're booting off an internal drive, like Optane or other SSD. These devices can't be ejected anyway, so the whole point of this option is moot.

Mmm, our experiences are differing again. Can you be specific on your issues with use of loading app data? So far I’ve found it essential for use of direct attached storage and Optane not particularly necessary. Admittedly Stylus has beaten Roon down to where I avoid it

[dc-audiogeek]

8 hours ago, austinpop said:

Indeed. To reiterate - only use the "Copy app data to RAM" flag for the specific case where:

1. you're booting off ejectable media like USB stick, AND
2. you're running endpoint services like Roon Bridge, StylusEP, Squeezelite, or NAA.

Using this flag for running Roon Server or Stylus is not something I'd recommend, due to the crippled functionality.

 

Avoid the "Copy app data to RAM" option like the plague if you're booting off an internal drive, like Optane or other SSD. These devices can't be ejected anyway, so the whole point of this option is moot.

 

Wow, definitely do not play around with Ramroot until you read the KB article! I turned the option on while I was using Euphony Stylus. Big mistake! I thought I bricked my Euphony install, but fortunately, Željko came to my aid as soon as I requested assistance.

[flkin]

3 hours ago, dc-audiogeek said:

 

Wow, definitely do not play around with Ramroot until you read the KB article! I turned the option on while I was using Euphony Stylus. Big mistake! I thought I bricked my Euphony install, but fortunately, Željko came to my aid as soon as I requested assistance.

 

From what I gather then it makes comparing from USB dongle :

 

Stylus (on ramroot)

RoonServer+StylusEP (on ramroot)

 

rather difficult then. Since for the former you should not use "Copy app data to Ram" while the latter you should? I take it that the switch will require a reboot..

 

I didn't encounter any problems when comparing the two even though I kept the "Copy app data to RAM" function on in both cases.

[AnotherSpin]

3 hours ago, dc-audiogeek said:

 

Wow, definitely do not play around with Ramroot until you read the KB article! I turned the option on while I was using Euphony Stylus. Big mistake! I thought I bricked my Euphony install, but fortunately, Željko came to my aid as soon as I requested assistance.

 

I had similar experience while trying ramroot together with copying functions on endpoint. Ramroot loading after reboot was not happening anymore with one of my usb sticks, and even formatting the stick and repeating all installation process from the beginning was not helping. Željko's remote assistance resolved the issue.

[flkin]

On a separate matter, can someone share their optimised way to copy the current song in RoonServer so that it's easier to paste it into Stylus search for playback? Is there a trick involved for a quick switch?

[davide256]

17 minutes ago, flkin said:

 

From what I gather then it makes comparing from USB dongle :

 

Stylus (on ramroot)

RoonServer+StylusEP (on ramroot)

 

rather difficult then. Since for the former you should not use "Copy app data to Ram" while the latter you should? I take it that the switch will require a reboot..

 

I didn't encounter any problems when comparing the two even though I kept the "Copy app data to RAM" function on in both cases.

KB  sounds like FUD mongering to me. I've had no issues over the past few days swapping between Roon/Stylus, swapping NAS/HD/SDXC storage for comparison media testing. The only quirk I've seen is  unpredictable time to refresh media db and one issue where when I added the NAS storage via Roon first, Stylus said the drive was already attached but didn't show it as available to add to library... removing in Roon and rebooting cleared the problem.

 

Does explain why cache wasn't audible to me in use, i.e doesn't work in RAM root. But that just makes it a "department of redundancy department" exercise since "100% buffer" makes it unneeded if you have enough RAM. Guess I'll add that 2nd 8b  RAM stick back in. I did have a non RAM loaded version of Euphony "brick"

in the past with only 8gb of RAM, my suspicion is that happens when buffer is enabled and playlist exceeds RAM availability, have been careful since about my playlist

size.

 

 

[Anwar]

It seems Euphony is getting more advanced now and it is very good that the RAM root features have been properly documented.

 

I am not sure how many software developers are there to continue supporting Euphony.  Initially my emails were replied by Robert, recently my emails were replied by Željko.  Are there any others?

[austinpop]

2 hours ago, davide256 said:

 

Mmm, our experiences are differing again. Can you be specific on your issues with use of loading app data? So far I’ve found it essential for use of direct attached storage and Optane not particularly necessary. Admittedly Stylus has beaten Roon down to where I avoid it

 

I'm not sure what you're asking, so I'll give you my perspective. If you have a more specific question, please clarify.

 

As the KB article clarifies, the Euphony OS resides on 2 disk partitions - one contains the root (aka /) filesystem, while another contains the /data filesystem (config, caches, app data). There are other partitions, but this separation is the key. Note that this is different from AL, where everything is on one partition.

 

I've done extensive experiments on ramroot, both in AL, and now in Euphony, to determine what affected SQ. Out of many, here are a few relevant findings:

1. When booted from a USB stick, there was a definite uptick in SQ when one could remove the stick after boot. In AL this was trivial, due to the OS being on a single partition. In Euphony, it takes some extra prep, which is what the Copy app data to RAM flag is for.
2. While ramroot booting of the OS definitely improves SQ, I didn't notice a further uptick in SQ by having Roon data in RAM disk. Given that the downsides are numerous, this is only worthwhile if booting from an ejectable stick.
3. Booting off an internal Optane SSD, which stays attached, sounded just as good as boot from, and then ejecting a USB stick. This led me to conclude that, with Optane SSD at least, the noise penalty was very low.
4. In any case, the benefit (and burden) of copying app data to RAM only accrues when you can remove the boot drive. If it's fixed anyway in the system, there's no reason to do this copying.
5. One could argue that even with the drive still attached, loading data into RAM reduces I/O and hence noise. However, I didn't find this to be the case - see point 2.
6. Finally, on AL, I had found that playing a music file in RAM disk sounded slightly better than the same file on the Optane SSD, and much better than the file on my NAS. However, this is all moot on Stylus on Euphony. With the benefit of "Use Cache" and "Buffer before play=100%" file playback sounds the same from my NAS, or indeed from Qobuz.

The bottom line from all the above experiments - and I must stress, to my ears specifically - is that if you are booting from a USB stick or other ejectable medium, then use the copy flag with ramroot to allow you to safely eject the disk after boot. Just remember not to make any changes to the system, as without the media present, there is no way to save these changes. 

 

And if you're booting up Euphony with a USB stick to run server apps like Stylus or Roon Server ... stop! Get yourself an Optane SSD so you can run ramroot with full function, and without risk of data loss.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, flkin said:

 

From what I gather then it makes comparing from USB dongle :

 

Stylus (on ramroot)

RoonServer+StylusEP (on ramroot)

 

rather difficult then. Since for the former you should not use "Copy app data to Ram" while the latter you should? I take it that the switch will require a reboot..

 

I didn't encounter any problems when comparing the two even though I kept the "Copy app data to RAM" function on in both cases.

 

Hi Kin,

• If you do not eject the USB stick, then you're safe, and you can actually uncheck the "Copy app data to RAM' flag. 
• If you do plan to eject the stick, then do check the flag. When you do, another flag appears, giving you the option to not copy the Roon database. This is because the Roon DB can be rather large for some libraries, and may not fit in available RAM.
• If you check this flag, then your Roon database will not be available, so your Roon experience will be poor. 
• If your Roon DB can fit comfortably in RAM, then you should leave the second flag unchecked
• This second Roon flag has no relevance to Stylus.

Thus, as long as your Roon DB will fit in RAM, you can in fact run Stylus and Roon+StylusEP in ramroot, booted from a USB stick that you eject after boot, for best SQ.

 

The main caveat of course is that no changes to system state, your library, playlists, etc will get persisted back to the USB stick. But if you're just trying to evaluate SQ, it's very possible. I just don't recommend this as a long term solution for those running audio servers. For endpoints, you can adopt the USB stick boot approach just fine, and in many ways, may be the option with the best SQ. If there's one downside, it's that ramroot boot is quite slow, as copying the root filesystem to RAM disk can take a few minutes. It's much faster with Optane.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, davide256 said:

KB  sounds like FUD mongering to me

 

Really? You don't think that it's possible to shoot yourself in the foot if you're not careful?

 

A lot of Euphony users aren't OS experts, and even on this thread, it looks like many have already hit issues. I think the KB article spells out the gotchas quite clearly, and was a very welcome addition.

[austinpop]

1 hour ago, flkin said:

On a separate matter, can someone share their optimised way to copy the current song in RoonServer so that it's easier to paste it into Stylus search for playback? Is there a trick involved for a quick switch?

 

Not that I know. Since my library's folder structure is reasonably well organized, I'll look at the file info of the song or album I want in Roon to determine the file path, and then in Stylus, I'll actually use the My Music > Files view to navigate to the album.

 

That said, Stylus' search function, using keywords isn't too bad. it's not as slick as Roon, but usually gets the job done.

[davide256]

On 9/16/2019 at 8:02 AM, TheAttorney said:

Yes this will work, but it's simpler and faster to keep ramroot always enabled and just hit the "Save root fs to disc" after an upgrade or after any config changes. This will ensure that RAM and disc are always in sync.

 

This statement is rather misleading depending on the context. My take is that....

 

Enabling Ramroot copies all the root filestore to RAM, such that no disc access occurs in the running of the Operating System, resulting in improved SQ due to (it's suggested) reduced latency and noise. With just Ramroot enabled, you still get full access to your music library and music files.

 

If you check the "Copy app data to RAM" option just above the Ramroot Enable button, you will additionally copy /data to RAM. This completely stops all disc access, which further reduces latency and noise. And now you can remove your external drive which possibly may yet further reduce noise.

 

However, that additional option is a moot point for me because usability takes a severe nosedive in exchange for a dubiously small improvement in SQ - at least when caching to Optane and 100% buffer enabled. So this additional option I feel is more for those who want to test what is ultimatly possible, rather than for those who want to enjoy their music collection with minimal fuss. The biggest boost to SQ is to just get the Operating System loaded into RAM - and for that there is no loss in music library function.

 

so a configuration verification here;

 

do you use NAS storage solution  or are you using directly attached storage media?

 

based on your outcomes, I'm suspecting NAS.

[ASRMichael]

Hi

 

I have recently purchased Euphony end point running NAA, replacing AL on my TLS end point. I do like the sound of Euphony. So I thought I would trial Euphony on my server running HQ Player Embedded & Roon Server. I also liked the changes in sound from my server running Euphony, this also replaced AL, but here's the problem......

 

Running AL on my server I can run HQ player Embedded with the following Settings;

 

DSD

NAA

Filter - Poly-sinc-xtr-mp

Shaper - ASDM7EC

Buffer - 0

Output - 5644800/1/2

 

My server is;

 

- i7700 T 2.9Ghz

Hyper Threading - Off

C-States - Off

Turbo (to 3.6Ghz- Off

Other bios setting disabled I don't need

No PCIe GPU

(I like the above settings off, I prefer the sound)

 

AL Settings;

 

Ramroot - Enabled

Kernal - Latest

Realtime Priority - Extreme

Isolated cores - 1-3 for Audio

 

Now playing music with HQplayer embedded my 3 cores for audio run around 75-80%, other core runs around 50%, runs well no stuttering! ever. So all good. 

 

Now with Euphony...........In Ramroot and non RAM Root (HQ player and Roon Server)

 

The settings above simply do not work. Here what I have tried;

 

Settings above - Stuttering/skipping. All 3 processors maxed out at 99-100%%.

Removed Core isolation, given me back 1 extra core, so 4 in total, All 4 processors maxed out at 99-100%%, still skipping.

Turned on Turbo increasing from 2.9Ghz to 3.6Ghz, All 4 processors maxed out at 96-99%. still skipping

Turned on Hyper Threading - All 4 processors maxed out at 95-98-100%. still skipping

Even defaulted my Bios, run everything as standard, still same result. 

Running from Sandisk USB, tried another brand, Tried with and without Ramrrot - No difference

 

So only other thing to try was changing HQ player settings!

 

I changed Filter - Poly-sinc-xtr-mp to Filter - Poly-sinc-xtr-mp-2s. This change got it to play, but still 90+%, whereas these settings Filter - Poly-sinc-xtr-mp-2s settings AL processors on 3 cores only runs at 56%. 

 

I then changed back to Poly-sinc-xtr-mp to Filter and changed the Shaper from ASDM7EC to ASDM7, this still did not work. Seems Euphony simply cannot play the Poly-sinc-xtr-mp filters. 

 

So what is going on with the performance (not sound quality) with AL & Euphony. Seems (in my case anyway) the performance of AL is much faster/more efficient than Euphony. It''s a pity that Euphony cannot cope with my HQ player settings, because I do like the tonal difference that Euphony brings, but without the HQplayer settings I really enjoy, thia leaves me staying with AL for the time being.

 

I am not writing this email to detract anyone from buying Euphony because I do like the sound quality it brings and sure in future releases Euphony will become from efficient in terms of performance. Now I could be wrong and there is a solution I am missing. So, just in case I have missed something obvious, or someone has the same performance experience they would like to share which might point me in a new direction. Also have other Euphony users seen performance difference moving over from AL to Euphony?. 

 

Also to point out my above settings that run on AL without any issues also run on Windows Server 2019. 

 

Any comments appreciated and thanks in advance

 

[Miska]

3 hours ago, ASRMichael said:

So what is going on with the performance (not sound quality) with AL & Euphony. Seems (in my case anyway) the performance of AL is much faster/more efficient than Euphony. It''s a pity that Euphony cannot cope with my HQ player settings, because I do like the tonal difference that Euphony brings, but without the HQplayer settings I really enjoy, thia leaves me staying with AL for the time being.

 

Maybe the two use different build of HQPlayer?

 

[dctom]

On 9/15/2019 at 3:29 PM, AnotherSpin said:

 

I am using Euphony endpoint image only and in my case enabling ramroot doesn't interfere with music files on a server side. As I understand enabling ramroot moves Euphony from an usb stick to RAM memory of computer. One can remove a stick after ramroot loaded.

 

Hi 

can  you purchase just the Euphony end point and use, say, AL and  HQP on the server side?

[bodiebill]

12 minutes ago, dctom said:

can  you purchase just the Euphony end point and use, say, AL and  HQP on the server side?

 

yes

[dctom]

Thanks!

[AnotherSpin]

1 hour ago, dctom said:

 

Hi 

can  you purchase just the Euphony end point and use, say, AL and  HQP on the server side?

 

Yes, I bought Euphony endpoint and use it at NUC with HQPlayer on a server side.

[dctom]

thanks for the info

[dctom]

5 minutes ago, AnotherSpin said:

 

Yes, I bought Euphony endpoint and use it at NUC with HQPlayer on a server side.

Forgot to ask - do you run Euphony as Naa on the NUC?

[AnotherSpin]

4 minutes ago, dctom said:

Forgot to ask - do you run Euphony as Naa on the NUC?

Exactly

[dctom]

👍👍

[TheAttorney]

On 9/17/2019 at 5:58 PM, davide256 said:

so a configuration verification here;

do you use NAS storage solution  or are you using directly attached storage media?

based on your outcomes, I'm suspecting NAS.

 

No, I'm using a directly connected USB stick (thumb drive).

I don't see any fundemental difference, wrt ramroot usability, between NAS vs direct connected filestore.

[davide256]

7 hours ago, TheAttorney said:

 

No, I'm using a directly connected USB stick (thumb drive).

I don't see any fundemental difference, wrt ramroot usability, between NAS vs direct connected filestore.

 

NAS/USB stick/HD I find too slow/mushy on transients,  but many others prefer over the leanness/brightness of external SSD/class 10 SDXC media.

I'm finding that the fully RAM loaded Stylus player with buffer enabled has mostly corrected these issues for  my SDXC media use where the earlier RAM

loaded beta version without "boot drive independence" did not.

 

 

[RickyV]

New version: 20190918