USB audio transmission isn’t bit true

[beerandmusic]

3 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148763.0

in re-reading this article, IFI says EXACTLY what i was saying...that i am not convinced that errors will only cause a dropout, that i can understand that if an entire packet was dropped, you may hear a click or drop... but not if occasional bits....that i suspect distortion.....here they suggest exactly as i guessed....

 

 

==

Isochronous transfer mode uses error-checking but includes no re-transmission in case of Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss, as does poor signal integrity.   In mild cases, this leads to audio signal distortions. In the worst cases, clicks and dropouts.

===

 

....i suppose IFI doesn't know what they are talking about also....

 

They also say that noise causes errors and data loss...something else i said but that was rejected....and i deduced both of these FACTS by logical reasoning...never read it before, and it went against everything that most people here claimed....whatever...i am done with this thread....

 

when you get errors, and you will (more if noise, or interrupts, buffer settings, many things can affect) and You will either have distortion, interpolation (possibly incorrect), or dropouts if too many errors (and entire packet is dropped).  It is very feasible that you will have distortion (or unnatural music) and not even know it....but people can believe whatever they want...i know differently....finally done with this topic...CLOSED.

 

none of these facts suggest you can't have a good usb solution.  I do believe one can have a stable optimized USB solution, and that some dacs will do a better job than others....

 

 

[esldude]

41 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

in re-reading this article, IFI says EXACTLY what i was saying...that i am not convinced that errors will only cause a dropout, that i can understand that if an entire packet was dropped, you may hear a click or drop... but not if occasional bits....that i suspect distortion.....here they suggest exactly as i guessed....

 

 

==

Isochronous transfer mode uses error-checking but includes no re-transmission in case of Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss, as does poor signal integrity.   In mild cases, this leads to audio signal distortions. In the worst cases, clicks and dropouts.

===

 

....i suppose IFI doesn't know what they are talking about also....

 

They also say that noise causes errors and data loss...something else i said but that was rejected....and i deduced both of these FACTS by logical reasoning...never read it before, and it went against everything that most people here claimed....whatever...i am done with this thread....

 

when you get errors, and you will (more if noise, or interrupts, buffer settings, many things can affect) and You will either have distortion, interpolation (possibly incorrect), or dropouts if too many errors (and entire packet is dropped).  It is very feasible that you will have distortion (or unnatural music) and not even know it....but people can believe whatever they want...i know differently....finally done with this topic...CLOSED.

 

none of these facts suggest you can't have a good usb solution.  I do believe one can have a stable optimized USB solution, and that some dacs will do a better job than others....

 

 

You of course didn't learn anything.  Anyone who tells you data loss is a problem slight or severe in USB connected DACs is selling you a bill of goods.  You shouldn't trust them, and you have enough information to understand that.  But you didn't want to because of your prior deductions which are more important to you than any evidence to the contrary.  

[firedog]

53 minutes ago, esldude said:

You of course didn't learn anything.  Anyone who tells you data loss is a problem slight or severe in USB connected DACs is selling you a bill of goods.  You shouldn't trust them, and you have enough information to understand that.  But you didn't want to because of your prior deductions which are more important to you than any evidence to the contrary.  

Yep. B&M reads everything with a filter acc'd to an idea he has before he reads. The only text that makes it past his filter is text that confirms what he presupposed. Even if the next sentence in the same article says "but the previous idea is false".

[beerandmusic]

everything i believed starting this thread is EXACTLY the same as what i concluded....people tried to read into what i was saying, but did so incorrectly....the main thing that I learned was to continue through with my thought process and do not let ignorance step in my way.

[Superdad]

4 hours ago, esldude said:

https://www.corning.com/optical-cables-by-corning/worldwide/en/products/thunderbolt-optical-cables.html

A bit pricy, but there it is. 

 

Dennis, while you were above suggesting the Corning cable in response to someone looking for Thunderbolt galvanic isolation, the Corning optical cables include copper wires and do not provide any galvanic isolation.

Same goes for the Corning optical USB cable.

[beerandmusic]

40 minutes ago, firedog said:

. Even if the next sentence in the same article says ...

more likely, next sentence would be, and upsampling makes it even more complex and even more prone to noise and errors....LOL....

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148763.0

in re-reading this article, IFI says EXACTLY what i was saying...that i am not convinced that errors will only cause a dropout, that i can understand that if an entire packet was dropped, you may hear a click or drop... but not if occasional bits....that i suspect distortion.....here they suggest exactly as i guessed....

 

 

==

Isochronous transfer mode uses error-checking but includes no re-transmission in case of Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss, as does poor signal integrity.   In mild cases, this leads to audio signal distortions. In the worst cases, clicks and dropouts.

===

 

....i suppose IFI doesn't know what they are talking about also....

 

They also say that noise causes errors and data loss...something else i said but that was rejected....and i deduced both of these FACTS by logical reasoning...never read it before, and it went against everything that most people here claimed....whatever...i am done with this thread....

 

when you get errors, and you will (more if noise, or interrupts, buffer settings, many things can affect) and You will either have distortion, interpolation (possibly incorrect), or dropouts if too many errors (and entire packet is dropped).  It is very feasible that you will have distortion (or unnatural music) and not even know it....but people can believe whatever they want...i know differently....finally done with this topic...CLOSED.

 

none of these facts suggest you can't have a good usb solution.  I do believe one can have a stable optimized USB solution, and that some dacs will do a better job than others....

[esldude]

56 minutes ago, Superdad said:

 

Dennis, while you were above suggesting the Corning cable in response to someone looking for Thunderbolt galvanic isolation, the Corning optical cables include copper wires and do not provide any galvanic isolation.

Same goes for the Corning optical USB cable.

Thanks. I'd not realized that until you pointed it out.

[diecaster]

1 hour ago, beerandmusic said:

Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss...

 

The text above is incorrect. There is always some electrical noise on the USB bus. If that text were accurate, you would get nothing but CRC errors and USB audio would never work. No, the text should read:

 

Electrical noise on USB signals can cause CRC errors which would result in data loss.

 

You can’t take what is written as an absolute at face value. You need to look logically at what was written to come to the right conclusions about what was intended to be conveyed. 

 

Even the noisiest USB bus computers aren’t generating many CRC errors. If they were all transfers would be dramatically slowed down. 

[Don Hills]

10 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Especially those that use Class D amplifiers that are incapable of highlighting the obvious differences  due to the horrendous amount of RF/EMI that they inject back into the A.C. mains sewer  and ALSO radiate from their inductors to obliterate reception of nearby A.M. radios ?

 

Well, there's your problem. Simply fixed - stop listening to your music via your AM radio.

 

But it should be easy enough to prove your theory.

1. Find a system with Class D amps where the effect is obvious.

2. Record the output of the preamp with the power amps turned off.

3. Repeat with the power amps turned on.

4. Post the resulting files.

 

Oh, wait...

 

 

[Summit]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

 

 

Bit perfect simply means that the digital cod (1 and 0) haven’t been altered or changed, not necessary lost. Bits can be transferred correctly whereas it’s only is read a transmitted as ones and zeros (digital cod).

 

Digital transmission is superior to analogue, at least as long as it is kept in its digital form. The reason: it’s more resistant to noise and other things that can affect the signal. As the reading value only can be one of two values (one or zero) the digital signal has to be very serially affected before a value that use to be 1 got altered so much that it will be read as a 0 or got missing.  

 

So as long as the signal only has to be read as digital cods and it is transmitted over short distance the change for flipping or missing bits is very small in most environments. The problem is that we can’t really listen directly to digital, we need to make it an analogue signal first for the speakers to work.

 

In a DAC there is a device that convert digital values to analogue. This devise doesn’t read everything in only to two values (one or zero) like then the signal was digital. It. This is there the problem that has been caused before upstream will be revealed, because to get a resolution of 16 bit the digital to analogue converter need to be able to “sort out” 65 536 different values and the smallest bit (LSB) is only 0,038 mV. As you can see to get the digital cod correct is easy while getting the converted analogue signal correct is much harder.   

[beerandmusic]

31 minutes ago, diecaster said:

 

Electrical noise on USB signals can cause CRC errors which would result in data loss.

 

implied, and agreed.

[sandyk]

26 minutes ago, Don Hills said:

 

Well, there's your problem. Simply fixed - stop listening to your music via your AM radio. 

 

But it should be easy enough to prove your theory.

1. Find a system with Class D amps where the effect is obvious.

2. Record the output of the preamp with the power amps turned off.

3. Repeat with the power amps turned on.

4. Post the resulting files.

 

Oh, wait...

 

 

 

 It's more easily fixed. I will simply ignore replies and demands from cranky old K1W1 s .

 

DAeBdNzXGP-6.bmp

[mansr]

12 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

I wonder why some designers are moving to bulk-pet over isosynchronous for DSD to shorten the audio latency.

 

https://www.itf.co.jp/prod/audio_solution/bulk-pet/bulk-pet-en

 

It is defined to using Isochronous Transfer to transmit the audio data in USB Audio Class.
Audio data is transmitted in a constant period in Isochronous Transfer.
On the other hand, huge proccessing loading also appears in a constant period on host CPU and device CPU.
This huge processing loading causes the sound quality slight changes.

Bulk Pet is the technology that transmitting the audio data in Bulk Transfer.
In Bulk Transfer, it’s able to control the transmission data volume and transmission frequency.

That's all complete nonsense.

[beerandmusic]

5 hours ago, mansr said:

That's all complete nonsense

 

you probably don't upsample either....yawn...

 

I know MISKA intends on getting a UD505 once they are available....I am anxious to see what   he  thinks.

https://teac.jp/int/product/nt-505/feature

[kumakuma]

7 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 It's more easily fixed. I will simply ignore replies and demands from cranky old K1W1 s .

 

DAeBdNzXGP-6.bmp

 

For the benefit of those of us from other parts of the world, what is the difference between cranky old K1W1s and cranky old Aussies like yourself?

[Superdad]

13 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

For the benefit of those of us from other parts of the world, what is the difference between cranky old K1W1s and cranky old Aussies like yourself?

 

Wallabies versus kangaroos of course.  

[Sonicularity]

13 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

For the benefit of those of us from other parts of the world, what is the difference between cranky old K1W1s and cranky old Aussies like yourself?

 

Aussies are ridiculously progressive, while Kiwis are ludicrously progressive.  How that relates to audio, I haven't got the foggiest idea.

[beerandmusic]

18 minutes ago, kumakuma said:

 

For the benefit of those of us from other parts of the world, what is the difference between cranky old K1W1s and cranky old Aussies like yourself?

 

approximately 4,163 kilometers

[Middy]

1 has bad habits the other bad Hobbits.. 

[Ralf11]

New Zealanders seem more reserved and much friendlier - tho seem to have an odd desire to emulate the English.

 

Aussies are more like Texans or So. Africans - hardly a compliment.

 

LMK for other geolocated criticisms of hominids.

[sandyk]

1 hour ago, kumakuma said:

 

For the benefit of those of us from other parts of the world, what is the difference between cranky old K1W1s and cranky old Aussies like yourself?

No difference to cranky old Canadians like yourself !

 

1 hour ago, Ralf11 said:

New Zealanders seem more reserved and much friendlier

Have you ever watched a Kiwi Rugby team at the start of a match ?  Aborigines are like pussy cats compared with fierce and menacing Kiwis.

Besides which, a sizable proportion of the N.Z . population has moved to Bondi !

[Ralf11]

1 hour ago, sandyk said:

No difference to cranky old Canadians like yourself !

...

 

Canadians are like Americans but civilized

[diecaster]

33 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Canadians are like Americans but civilized

 

Canadians just think they are better than Americans. Americans are commonly bashed by people from other countries. It must be jealousy.....

[sandyk]

54 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

 

Canadians are like Americans but civilized

 

When will you guys get it that the USA is only a part of America, NOT America ?

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americas

Quote

Canadians just think they are better than Americans.  - Diecaster

They quite possibly are judging by your choice of leader !