USB audio transmission isn’t bit true

[Rt66indierock]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Who can you trust if you can't even trust well known E.Es  ?.

( He was originally a BBC Engineer before going into business for himself)

 

Personally I go for the people responsible for the USB standard and people who work extensively with USB.  But I grew up in the Silicon Forest and strongly prefer people I've met face to face.

 

Graham Slee seems like a nice enough fellow but he appears focused on phono stages and headphone amplifiers with RCA in. 

[sandyk]

1 minute ago, Rt66indierock said:

Personally I go for the people responsible for the USB standard and people who work extensively with USB.

 Like Gordon Rankin perhaps ?

However Mansr thinks he is full of crap.

[mansr]

9 minutes ago, sandyk said:

Like Gordon Rankin perhaps ?

What does he have to do with USB?

[Rt66indierock]

2 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 Like Gordon Rankin perhaps ?

However Mansr thinks he is full of crap.

 

Sandy,

 

I know Gordon Rankin. I had a problem when he said about MQA,  "if you knew what I know..."

If you have been around hi-tech as I have that phrase is rarely used around successful products. 

 

At RMAF this year we talked about  guitar amps and oddly hearing. Skipping solid state seemed like a good idea.

[tmtomh]

21 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

You can have dissenting views removed on request . Period !

Right - I'd forgotten about your propensity to use exclamation points as if they were meaningful arguments.

 

I am not here to defend people's ability to remove disagreeing comments from threads they start. But by the same token, I have no interest in letting you use that to deflect from the point I was making - and which many others evidently agree with.

 

You and I don't have to agree, and if it makes you happy to use those exclamation points, by all means go ahead, but this version is more fun: ❗ ?

[Ralf11]

❗

[pkane2001]

21 minutes ago, tmtomh said:

this version is more fun: ❗ 

 

Ooooh! Alex, you’ve been outplayed. This is a much, much stronger argument.

[beerandmusic]

For the record, i am continually updating my Conclusion, the more i learn.  My conclusion is just my opinion, and clearly very debatable..I am still open to possibly a better or more optimal configuration, and I will update my personal conclusion as proven differently.

 

 

CONCLUSION

IFI does know a thing or two about USB!

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=148763.0

EXCERPT:

Isochronous transfer mode uses error-checking but includes no re-transmission in case of Cyclic Redundancy Check (CRC) errors. Electrical noise on USB signals causes CRC errors and thus data loss, as does poor signal integrity.   In mild cases, this leads to audio signal distortions. In the worst cases, clicks and dropouts.

In the article above,  IFI states that errors will ONLY cause a dropout where there are many CRC errors (e.g. dropped packets), . but CRC errors in lesser cases cause distortion.

They also say that noise can causes errors (which may cause distortion and dropouts).

MANSR even noted distortion, buzzing, and dropouts by using a fubar cable.

 In summary, when you get errors, and likely you will if not an optimized system (more if noise, interrupts, non-optimal buffer settings, and MANY other things can affect) and You will either have distortion, interpolation (possibly incorrect), or dropouts if too many errors (and entire packet is dropped).  It is very feasible that you will have distortion (or unnatural music) and not even know it...

NOTE: None of these facts suggest you can't have a good usb solution.  I do believe one can have a stable optimized USB solution, and that some DACS will do a better job than others....but in my opinion, USB is unneeded, and the future is in network players.  Ideally isolated via fiber between a potentially noisy server doing upsampling and DSP.  The latest network players even include fiber inputs (e.g. Lumin X1). 

Network players are a way of the future, and there already exist many solutions at all price points and with lots of promise for many more on their way!!

For anyone planning a new audio system, I highly suggest you consider looking in this direction (e.g. network player isolated from music server playing DSD via fiber).  I prefer Native DSD, but many are happy with upsampling to quad DSD.

 

[sandyk]

26 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

Ooooh! Alex, you’ve been outplayed. This is a much, much stronger argument.

 

 Is there any argument that is capable of defending Censorship of opposing viewpoints, unless the people posting opposing viewpoints who are doing this, deliberately set out to disrupt the thread(s), which is in itself a form of Censorship ?

[kumakuma]

21 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Is there any argument that is capable of defending Censorship of opposing viewpoints, unless the people posting opposing viewpoints who are doing this, deliberately set out to disrupt the thread(s), which is in itself a form of Censorship ?

 

???

[PeterSt]

19 hours ago, PeterSt said:

Why is it so that a single USB cable with different shielding options sounds totally different for each of such a configuration ? they ALL show now errors anywhere, which is the least YOU would expect. Right ?

 

Hmm ... this is not a very convenient typo. I meant to write "no errors". 

[wgscott]

57 minutes ago, sandyk said:

 

 Is there any argument that is capable of defending Censorship  

 

No.

[PeterSt]

2 hours ago, jabbr said:

18 hours ago, PeterSt said:

 

It is the greatest misconception that fiber isolates noise. Keep in mind: the noise is not there to begin with (no matter you have wet dreams over it).

Any noise which is there (DAC side) is created there. This is how fiber sounds the worst of all - it creates the most noise because it requires the most processing (to convert back to copper).

 

 

Proof that the fiberoptic (internet) does not isolate noise, rather lets it sail right through to our browser  

 

Too much enthusiasm in my post there. Thank you for the correction.

 

Quote

Keep in mind: the noise is not there to begin with

 

I focused on the noise which is in-DAC and which wasn't there when it left the transmitter. So the message was: now there is more "this specific" noise than without the fiber.

 

Maybe think Toslink and S/PDIF;

I don't think many people will find this better sounding than S/PDIF over copper (of course now 10 people at least will jump in saying that's not right ). So how can this be ? (I think it would be difficult to dedicate this to jitter, the PLL behind it being the same for both wire types).

 

OK, offtopic.

[jabbr]

❗

[beerandmusic]

1 hour ago, PeterSt said:

 

Too much enthusiasm in my post there. Thank you for the correction.

 

 

I focused on the noise which is in-DAC and which wasn't there when it left the transmitter. So the message was: now there is more "this specific" noise than without the fiber.

 

Maybe think Toslink and S/PDIF;

I don't think many people will find this better sounding than S/PDIF over copper (of course now 10 people at least will jump in saying that's not right ). So how can this be ? (I think it would be difficult to dedicate this to jitter, the PLL behind it being the same for both wire types).

 

OK, offtopic.

 

I can only speak for myself, but i only considered spdif until i found out it does not support native dsd which is my preferred listening format...i do however use spdif for my 2nd system which includes the computer i am typing on...it sounds very decent to me for a $250 system (minus pc).   I admit my very low budget may be reason for the method i have chosen, not able to budget high end pc or LPS or costly enet->usb type interface (e.g. rendu or sotm), and dsd to me has always sounded better via enet than usb, why i don't know, it just does, but i don't have any usb toys, fancy cables or fancy lps....this is why i always ask if generic pc with stock ps upsampling have any issues with DSD and USB, because i think DSD sounds better over enet with my cheap hardware.

[esldude]

2 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Is there any argument that is capable of defending Censorship of opposing viewpoints, unless the people posting opposing viewpoints who are doing this, deliberately set out to disrupt the thread(s), which is in itself a form of Censorship ?

Let us go with the related shouting fire in a crowded theater version of abridging free speech which would be related to censorship.

 

Rabble rouser Ray shouts fire in a crowded theater everyone goes nuts runs out.  RR Ray gets arrested for the no shouting fire in a non on fire theater ordinance.   

 

RR Ray's defense is fire is oxidation.  Everything in the theater is oxidizing, so RR Ray says it is on fire.  

 

The opposing view is fire is RAPID oxidation that can cause the building to fall, smoke, and fumes to kill people and burn people from the excess heat.  The theater isn't on fire, there isn't even any smoke and the fire fighters have done nothing as nothing was needed. 

 

RR Ray says speed has no bearing.  Oxidation is fire and the theater is on fire.  He is being persecuted unfairly.  The oxidation if unchecked will in time cause the building to fall and kill people.  It may happen later, but getting everyone out now saves lives.  

 

What should we do with RR Ray?  

 

Sorry, I felt a reasoned unreasonable meandering response was called for in this case. 

 

Now back to our regular thread pollution.  

[esldude]

23 minutes ago, beerandmusic said:

 

I can only speak for myself, but i only considered spdif until i found out it does not support native dsd which is my preferred listening format...i do however use spdif for my 2nd system which includes the computer i am typing on...it sounds very decent to me for a $250 system (minus pc).   I admit my very low budget may be reason for the method i have chosen, not able to budget high end pc or LPS or costly enet->usb type interface (e.g. rendu or sotm), and dsd to me has always sounded better via enet than usb, why i don't know, it just does, but i don't have any usb toys, fancy cables or fancy lps....this is why i always ask if generic pc with stock ps upsampling have any issues with DSD and USB, because i think DSD sounds better over enet with my cheap hardware.

USB sounds fine.  Use Enet if you wish.  You don't need a gargantuan budget for either if you are sensible. 

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, esldude said:

I've a suggestion. 

 

Start a go fund me account to allow you the funds to get the system of your dreams.  Promise us when you reach the magic number you'll stop posting non-sense here.  

 

If everyone will donate 1 cent each time they read one of your posts, you'll reach the target number in no time and everyone will be better off and happier. 

if it makes you so sad (weep weep)....stay out of the thread..admit it, you enjoy trolling....that is what makes you happy, and if you aren't doing it here, you are doing it somewhere else.

[beerandmusic]

2 minutes ago, Ralf11 said:

you are the one trolling the entire site cheesybeer

make you a deal...you  stay out of my threads and i will stay out of yours.

[asdf1000]

Question for b+m, you've acquired a lot of knowledge now...

 

So what are you gonna do with it! What are you planning to buy? Or nothing planned for the moment?

[esldude]

2 hours ago, beerandmusic said:

if it makes you so sad (weep weep)....stay out of the thread..admit it, you enjoy trolling....that is what makes you happy, and if you aren't doing it here, you are doing it somewhere else.

I actually erased all that quote of yours and changed the post.  But I suppose I know how closely you monitor my postings.  That version of my post was only online for maybe 2 minutes.  

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, esldude said:

I actually erased all that quote of yours and changed the post.  But I suppose I know how closely you monitor my postings.  That version of my post was only online for maybe 2 minutes.  

 

 Sprung !

[firedog]

18 hours ago, sandyk said:

 

 Who can you trust if you can't even trust well known E.Es  ?.

( He was originally a BBC Engineer before going into business for himself)

When did he get his degree? Maybe he never learned some of this USB stuff in school. 

[mansr]

25 minutes ago, firedog said:

When did he get his degree? Maybe he never learned some of this USB stuff in school. 

I didn't either, but I've read the spec. Apparently, he hasn't.

[sandyk]

2 hours ago, firedog said:

When did he get his degree? Maybe he never learned some of this USB stuff in school. 

 

 How many of the older E.E.s that regularly post in this forum would have learned " some of the USB stuff" at Uni, or for that matter are up to date in many other areas ?