Article: dCS Rossini DAC Review

[Priaptor]

15 hours ago, PeterG said:

 

Priaptor--thanks for your helpful post. 

 

One of the funny things about audiophiledom, is that we are often using different levels of scrutiny to describe things.  When Amir said the dCS was weak, I didn't think he meant that it did not sound as good as my Yggy in my $30K system.  I thought he meant it was not great for a $100K+ system.  Similarly, when you criticize Magico and Wilson, I assume you only mean they have some weaknesses relative to other excellent speakers.  I trust that all the components in Chris's system are excellent, but I also appreciate that even great systems have weaknesses when compared to other great systems.

 

Cheers

 

 

I'm not criticizing the "sound" of Magico and Wilson, whether I like them or not.  What I am criticizing is their need/desire to always upgrade in very short period of times compared to Chris' TADs

[PeterG]

11 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

I'm not criticizing the "sound" of Magico and Wilson, whether I like them or not.  What I am criticizing is their need/desire to always upgrade in very short period of times compared to Chris' TADs

 

Are you sure you mean that?  It's an unusual statement from an audiophile.  Shouldn't we applaud Magico's and Wilson's aggressiveness in pursuing the best possible sound?  If they know how to make a better speaker than the ones currently on sale, shouldn't they release it?

 

Also, I'm not saying we shouldn't applaud a product that has stood the test of time, such as Chris's TADs.  I'm just saying that the test is that it has to keep holding its own against the competitive onslaught.

[ted_b]

Anytime a new product is launched within a company's product set, it tends to diminish the sale/resale value of the product it replaces (or supercedes), let alone put the buyer in a death spiral conundrum of "waiting til the next version".  When you add in that Wilson and Magico begin at such a lofty price, it tends to really make things uneasy for the prospective buyer.  Lampizator had the same issues for many years as Lukasz would create a better moustrap every 3 months, each with seven options!  Audiogon would then have the old versions for half the price, even if one could figure out what versions they were!     My $.02

[miguelito]

9 minutes ago, PeterG said:

Are you sure you mean that?  It's an unusual statement from an audiophile.  Shouldn't we applaud Magico's and Wilson's aggressiveness in pursuing the best possible sound?  If they know how to make a better speaker than the ones currently on sale, shouldn't they release it?

I would argue one should accumulate improvements over some period and then release a meaningfully new version. I can't imagine a mature product can get meaningful improvements every few months. I might be wrong.

[firedog]

21 minutes ago, ted_b said:

Anytime a new product is launched within a company's product set, it tends to diminish the sale/resale value of the product it replaces (or supercedes), let alone put the buyer in a death spiral conundrum of "waiting til the next version".  When you add in that Wilson and Magico begin at such a lofty price, it tends to really make things uneasy for the prospective buyer.  Lampizator had the same issues for many years as Lukasz would create a better moustrap every 3 months, each with seven options!  Audiogon would then have the old versions for half the price, even if one could figure out what versions they were!     My $.02

Agree. But at least with a Lampi they would give you full value on a trade-in and trade up if the device was relatively new, with a reasonable sliding scale after that. Takes a bit of the sting out.  And he does seem to be stabilizing his product line somewhat, with fewer models and fewer options. 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, PeterG said:

Don't be certain you'll be able to make sense of them even with the lyrics

I think his lyrics make a lot more sense than those of many others.

I have no idea what they are "supposed" to mean (if there is such a thing), but I certainly have an understanding of what I think they mean. That's sort of all that matters in the end. 

[Priaptor]

17 minutes ago, PeterG said:

 

Are you sure you mean that?  It's an unusual statement from an audiophile.  Shouldn't we applaud Magico's and Wilson's aggressiveness in pursuing the best possible sound?  If they know how to make a better speaker than the ones currently on sale, shouldn't they release it?

 

Also, I'm not saying we shouldn't applaud a product that has stood the test of time, such as Chris's TADs.  I'm just saying that the test is that it has to keep holding its own against the competitive onslaught.

Sometimes the enemy of good is better. 

 

No I personally do not applaud Magico and neither do I applaud some of the practices of Wilson.  When Wilson releases an Alexia, then goes to the usual sources to get the "best ....." reviews only to within an inordinately short period of time release an Alexia 2 TOTALLY replacing their originally Alexia with NO upgrade path to the original Alexia owners, I think that sucks with no concern for the enduser.  But that's me.  Now they have their new great Alexandria.  Will that also soon be replaced within a very short period of time with no upgrade path like they have started doing recently with Alexia 2?  

 

Magico is the worst violator of this.  Their Q series, the best best best.  Soon the S series which "in some ways are better than the Q" but much cheaper.  Then the Q MKII.  Then the S MKII.  Then the M Project, only 40 to be made for some very special customers.  Then the M3 at a cheaper price better than the M Project.  Then the king of them all the M6 better than the Q7 MKII.  And the merry go around goes round and round and Magico users, fall into two camps, happy with what they have no matter how "outdated" which is a minority or the other, who want the newest and "best" and wind up going through the inordinate costs and hassle of upgrading. 

 

I have no patience for companies like this.  In my decision to choose a solid state amplifier and DAC the company's obsolescence time and manner of upgrade paths is very important to me.  The same with DACs.  I understand companies "upgrade" their products BUT churning is another story and I ignore those companies.  The other thing to remember is that when there is a "dealer" as in the case of Magico or Wilson or any other company like D'Agastino, there is already a built in consumer base, namely the dealer, who must upgrade to the latest to show the customers so all the onus is on the dealer with little risk to the manufacturer. 

[PeterG]

Ted/Miguelito--I agree with both of these posts.  Of course, in a way, they answer each other.  A company really should be careful of resale value impacts, and it probably takes a few years to come up with meaningful improvements.

 

As I reflect on my own system (which IMHO is excellent though not in the same league as this thread), I am using the 3rd generation of an iconic speaker (B&W diamonds) and the 6th (at least) generation of a classic amp (McIntosh 275).  I have not heard earlier generations, but the reviews would tell you that their predecessors were awesome decades ago, and that the current versions are far better for the iterations.

[ted_b]

4 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

Sometimes the enemy of good is better. 

 

No I personally do not applaud Magico and neither do I applaud some of the practices of Wilson.  When Wilson releases an Alexia, then goes to the usual sources to get the "best ....." reviews only to within an inordinately short period of time release an Alexia 2 TOTALLY replacing their originally Alexia with NO upgrade path to the original Alexia owners, I think that sucks with no concern for the enduser.  But that's me.  Now they have their new great Alexandria.  Will that also soon be replaced within a very short period of time with no upgrade path like they have started doing recently with Alexia 2?  

 

Magico is the worst violator of this.  Their Q series, the best best best.  Soon the S series which "in some ways are better than the Q" but much cheaper.  Then the Q MKII.  Then the S MKII.  Then the M Project, only 40 to be made for some very special customers.  Then the M3 at a cheaper price better than the M Project.  Then the king of them all the M6 better than the Q7 MKII.  And the merry go around goes round and round and Magico users, fall into two camps, happy with what they have no matter how "outdated" which is a minority or the other, who want the newest and "best" and wind up going through the inordinate costs and hassle of upgrading. 

 

I have no patience for companies like this.  In my decision to choose a solid state amplifier and DAC the company's obsolescence time and manner of upgrade paths is very important to me.  The same with DACs.  I understand companies "upgrade" their products BUT churning is another story and I ignore those companies.  The other thing to remember is that when there is a "dealer" as in the case of Magico or Wilson or any other company like D'Agastino, there is already a built in consumer base, namely the dealer, who must upgrade to the latest to show the customers so all the onus is on the dealer with little risk to the manufacturer. 

+1  "Churning".  Great word.

[Priaptor]

4 minutes ago, firedog said:

Agree. But at least with a Lampi they would give you full value on a trade-in and trade up if the device was relatively new, with a reasonable sliding scale after that. Takes a bit of the sting out.  And he does seem to be stabilizing his product line somewhat, with fewer models and few options. 

FD,

One reason I could never get into the Lampi is I can't even understand their page.  Also the upgrades every other month just turned me off.  And while he may give lenient upgrade paths, it is still a hassle to pack stuff up, send it back only to engage in the same activities over and over again.  Now granted a box is much easier than a huge speaker in the example I use but it is still a pain nonetheless.  

[PeterG]

5 minutes ago, firedog said:

I think his lyrics make a lot more sense than those of many others.

I have no idea what they are "supposed" to mean (if there is such a thing), but I certainly have an understanding of what I think they mean. That's sort of all that matters in the end. 

 

Just to be clear--I think Dylan is a genius--maybe the greatest lyricist of all time.  His Nobel laureate was long overdue. 

 

When I recommended the lyrics book, it is because they are so dense with meaning.  When I said one still may not be able to make sense of them it was an additional nod to their density, plus their frequent use of abstraction and ambiguity.

 

I like the physical book because I enjoy the sensation of holding it.  But one other fun thing to do that reflects the sentiments above is to visit the some of the crowd sourced song meanings websites.  More than once I've nodded in agreement with insightful deciphering of a Dylan lyric, then been forced to nod again as the next commentator presents an opposing view.  It's like the Talmud.

 

 

[rando]

3 hours ago, miguelito said:

This is the DSD download I purchased:

 

http://store.acousticsounds.com/d/98485/Bob_Dylan-The_Freewheelin_Bob_Dylan-DSD_Single_Rate_28MHz64fs_Download

 

However, it doesn't look to be a MoFi release. Roon's pick of the MoFi artwork threw me off. The sound quality is stunning regardless.

 

It is definitely the Sony SACD mastering.

 

 

[Mercman]

1 hour ago, Priaptor said:

Sometimes the enemy of good is better. 

 

No I personally do not applaud Magico and neither do I applaud some of the practices of Wilson.  When Wilson releases an Alexia, then goes to the usual sources to get the "best ....." reviews only to within an inordinately short period of time release an Alexia 2 TOTALLY replacing their originally Alexia with NO upgrade path to the original Alexia owners, I think that sucks with no concern for the enduser.  But that's me.  Now they have their new great Alexandria.  Will that also soon be replaced within a very short period of time with no upgrade path like they have started doing recently with Alexia 2?  

 

Magico is the worst violator of this.  Their Q series, the best best best.  Soon the S series which "in some ways are better than the Q" but much cheaper.  Then the Q MKII.  Then the S MKII.  Then the M Project, only 40 to be made for some very special customers.  Then the M3 at a cheaper price better than the M Project.  Then the king of them all the M6 better than the Q7 MKII.  And the merry go around goes round and round and Magico users, fall into two camps, happy with what they have no matter how "outdated" which is a minority or the other, who want the newest and "best" and wind up going through the inordinate costs and hassle of upgrading. 

 

I have no patience for companies like this.  In my decision to choose a solid state amplifier and DAC the company's obsolescence time and manner of upgrade paths is very important to me.  The same with DACs.  I understand companies "upgrade" their products BUT churning is another story and I ignore those companies.  The other thing to remember is that when there is a "dealer" as in the case of Magico or Wilson or any other company like D'Agastino, there is already a built in consumer base, namely the dealer, who must upgrade to the latest to show the customers so all the onus is on the dealer with little risk to the manufacturer. 

The Wilson Alexia Series 1 was "current" for 5 years. There was no way to upgrade an Alexia Series 1 to a Series 2 since the Series 2 had completely redesigned bass and midrange cabinets.  

 

But I don't think that any Alexia Series 1 speakers stopped working after 5 years.

 

 

[Priaptor]

16 minutes ago, Mercman said:

The Wilson Alexia Series 1 was "current" for 5 years. There was no way to upgrade an Alexia Series 1 to a Series 2 since the Series 2 had completely redesigned bass and midrange cabinets.  

 

But I don't think that any Alexia Series 1 speakers stopped working after 5 years.

 

 

My bad, you are right that they were on the market that long.  It seems much shorter. 

 

Not arguing that the originals stopped working but when you release a Series II of the same speaker it greatly diminishes the inherit value of what you bought.  What makes the policy, IMO, relatively unsettling is that as you indicated it is a total redesign with no upgrade path yet maintains the same standing in the Wilson name, sans series II.  When I owned NOLA Baby Grands, "new" Baby Grands that went by the Baby Grand name were upgradeable at a very reasonable cost.  While the originals haven't stopped working as you state, I think the number of Alexia series 1 on the market for resale speaks to my point.  

[ShawnC]

Audiogon has the Wilson Alexandria X-2 Series 1 for $40,000, that's a $95,000 savings

 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8g4j3-wilson-audio-alexandria-x-2-series-1-in-desert-silver-certified-authentic-full-range

[Dr Tone]

3 hours ago, Priaptor said:

When Wilson releases an Alexia, then goes to the usual sources to get the "best ....." reviews only to within an inordinately short period of time release an Alexia 2 TOTALLY replacing their originally Alexia with NO upgrade path to the original Alexia owners, I think that sucks with no concern for the enduser.

 

There actually kind of is an upgrade path, "The Wilson Certified Authentic" program.  Dealers move the owners original speakers prior to bringing in the new one.  I would think physically upgrading might be impossible in most cases.

[Mercman]

2 hours ago, Priaptor said:

My bad, you are right that they were on the market that long.  It seems much shorter. 

 

Not arguing that the originals stopped working but when you release a Series II of the same speaker it greatly diminishes the inherit value of what you bought.  What makes the policy, IMO, relatively unsettling is that as you indicated it is a total redesign with no upgrade path yet maintains the same standing in the Wilson name, sans series II.  When I owned NOLA Baby Grands, "new" Baby Grands that went by the Baby Grand name were upgradeable at a very reasonable cost.  While the originals haven't stopped working as you state, I think the number of Alexia series 1 on the market for resale speaks to my point.  

You are right about the about taking a hit on the resale price. The smart guys always purchase the old models at a big discount.

[Priaptor]

33 minutes ago, Dr Tone said:

 

There actually kind of is an upgrade path, "The Wilson Certified Authentic" program.  Dealers move the owners original speakers prior to bringing in the new one.  I would think physically upgrading might be impossible in most cases.

I actually owned many Wilson speakers in the past and their “upgrades” used to most often be a field upgrade that were not to difficult. The biggest issue I had with one of them was I had to solder a new lead to a driver on my X1. I probably shouldn’t put Wilson in the same category as Magico as the latter really is in a class of its own in what I label churning but I am starting to see a pattern emerging that is varying with past Wilson practices. Not that it effects me as I was just making an example. 

 

While I recognize both Magico and Wilson for being excellent products they just aren’t my cup of tea and was just illustrating the “upgraditis” built into both manufacturerss. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

1 hour ago, ShawnC said:

Audiogon has the Wilson Alexandria X-2 Series 1 for $40,000, that's a $95,000 savings

 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis8g4j3-wilson-audio-alexandria-x-2-series-1-in-desert-silver-certified-authentic-full-range

Same here - https://superphonica.com/search-results/?q=wilson audio

[Ralf11]

Consider anti-Churning...

 

Magneplanar will not release a new speaker until it passes their blind testing.

 

That's right, they use blind testing (!)

 

They also designate an "i" version which is not a full numeric upgrade.  They are very up front about this, and they will even tell you "maybe you should just keep the ones you have" as they did me.

 

I also have a very healthy respect for Dick Vandersteen and his co. seems similar. 

[ShawnC]

2 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Same here - https://superphonica.com/search-results/?q=wilson audio

Old habits, not intentional.  I'll always drive traffic here when I can 

Good price though.  I might sell all my electronics, my car and get a loan. I'm still $30,000 short.

[miguelito]

4 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Same here - https://superphonica.com/search-results/?q=wilson audio

On the flipside... Maybe I should get me a pair of second hand Wilsons!

 

[elcorso]

10 hours ago, ted_b said:

Anytime a new product is launched within a company's product set, it tends to diminish the sale/resale value of the product it replaces (or supercedes), let alone put the buyer in a death spiral conundrum of "waiting til the next version".  When you add in that Wilson and Magico begin at such a lofty price, it tends to really make things uneasy for the prospective buyer.  Lampizator had the same issues for many years as Lukasz would create a better moustrap every 3 months, each with seven options!  Audiogon would then have the old versions for half the price, even if one could figure out what versions they were!     My $.02

 

I fell into Lampizator's mouse trap. A DAC with great SQ for my taste, but in a short time I realized that I was buying a product that would never be his last and best version, always surpassed by a new one and quite expensive. Send it to upgrades forget, very difficult to export and re-export products from my country and pay again the expensive import taxes. I came to feel as if I had bought an unfinished product.

 

The above without taking into account the large investment in the coupling tubes (that are also business of this company) and that change the the SQ "flavor".

 

Roch

[The Computer Audiophile]

Speaking of upgrades etc... The dCS platform is very upgradable. Using history as a guide, people who buy a Rossini today will have a current DAC for many years via free upgrades. 

[miguelito]

1 hour ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

Speaking of upgrades etc... The dCS platform is very upgradable. Using history as a guide, people who buy a Rossini today will have a current DAC for many years via free upgrades. 

And truly amazing customer service.