How DOES the grounding boxes work?

[AJ Soundfield]

Why do you need an objective crutch for your purely subjective perception?

Not enough to just "experience" it?

[semente]

1 hour ago, Cornan said:

I know ground is a 0v reference and that ground is not negatively charged. I am trying to understand why the work? I know they do. They might not do it as a ground reference in a proper sence, but they seem to make those spots better. Could this be due to a reduction of anti-statics do you think? 

 

The bit I highlighted seems, in my view, to be the cause of all this misunderstanding.

 

Some of the participants in the conversation have put forward possible explanations for an audible change to the signal.

But apparently you didn't find a a single one of them satisfactory because they clearly do not reflect or explain whatever expectations (belief) you have for grounding boxes and the mechanics at stake.

i find extreme experimentation quite commendable as long as one's attempts at explaining observed phenomena do not go (too far) beyond reason aka science.

 

@AJ Soundfield has been mentioning bias quite often; in addition to visual bias there is also that which comes from reading the propaganda which manufacturers issue about their products and also from reading reviews.

In my opinion one should not read reviews before assessing the sound of an equipment for that particular reason.

[pkane2001]

5 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

AFAIK it is enough to keep the tourmaline stones under pressure to release ions. If you shake a Entreq grounding box you cannot even hear the stones moving inside. 

Aucharm grounding boxes have loose stones inside, but their grounding box isn't as effective either.

 

So is your theory then that a build up of static electricity in tourmaline (happens even if nothing is attached to it) causes some sort of beneficial effect on SQ? There are much cheaper ways to produce a static electric charge.

 

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Well, it isn’t as if your equipment is shuffling across the carpet building up static charges - at least I hope not!   As marce says, your equipment shouldn’t be building up static charge because it always has a place to discharge to.  (It is the same as if you were always touching grounded metal - you wouldn’t build up static charge either.)

 

So granting that you are hearing some difference, either you are affecting ground loops/noise in the system (in which case, as mansr says, any connection such as a simple wire should suffice; or better still, simplifying wiring in your system to the extent possible and paying careful attention to grounding to minimize any ground, leakage, or other noise currents); or the wire to the box is acting as an antenna and you are indeed changing the sound by actually adding noise.

 

I personally think the first of these (changing ground currents/noise) is more likely in most people’s systems, though of course I don’t know about yours in particular.

 

Interesting! I like the idea that the grounding boxes are changing ground currents/noise! ? Do you think they block them or just reduces them?

I can tell you that I always found the grounding boxes to have "similar" effects to a GND-lift.

[Cornan]

4 minutes ago, pkane2001 said:

 

So is your theory then that a build up of static electricity in tourmaline (happens even if nothing is attached to it) causes some sort of beneficial effect on SQ? There are much cheaper ways to produce a static electric charge.

 

 

I am no scientist. I have just my very own theories based on the properties of the tourmaline stones. I am quite sure there are many other ways to make the same improvements, and would love to learn about them.

IMO it could be either that the boxes deals with anti-statics or ground loops as mentioned by @Jud. I am interested in any plausible explanation why the grounding boxes affects SQ. Ofcourse it is not likely that I believe in an explanation that decrease SQ since I have very positive results myself! ?

[Cornan]

13 minutes ago, semente said:

 

The bit I highlighted seems, in my view, to be the cause of all this misunderstanding.

 

Some of the participants in the conversation have put forward possible explanations for an audible change to the signal.

But apparently you didn't find a a single one of them satisfactory because they clearly do not reflect or explain whatever expectations (belief) you have for grounding boxes and the mechanics at stake.

i find extreme experimentation quite commendable as long as one's attempts at explaining observed phenomena do not go (too far) beyond reason aka science.

 

@AJ Soundfield has been mentioning bias quite often; in addition to visual bias there is also that which comes from reading the propaganda which manufacturers issue about their products and also from reading reviews.

In my opinion one should not read reviews before assessing the sound of an equipment for that particular reason.

 

I do take anything into consideration. That's is why I have invited disbelievers to this thread in the first place. My only problem is that it seems that I am the only one here that have actually tried them IRL. Based on my personal good experiances in a well isolated setup I just find it hard to believe in theories that decrease SQ or do not affect SQ at all.

 

[pkane2001]

3 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I am no scientist. I have just my very own theories based on the properties of the tourmaline stones. I am quite sure there are many other ways to make the same improvements, and would love to learn about them.

IMO it could be either that the boxes deals with anti-statics or ground loops as mentioned by @Jud. I am interested in any plausible explanation why the grounding boxes affects SQ. Ofcourse it is not likely that I believe in an explanation that decrease SQ since I have very positive results myself! ?

Well, so far I've not heard any explanation that makes any sense, except for these boxes acting as an antenna. I don't see why you'd want to inject EMI/RFI into the ground plane of any audio device, but, if it sounds good to you - keep using it.

[Jud]

8 minutes ago, Cornan said:

I can tell you that I always found the grounding boxes to have "similar" effects to a GND-lift.

 

Ah - that would seem to be an indication in favor of the possibility that what you are hearing is a change in ground or leakage currents.

 

If that’s the case, you might well be able to take measures that are both less expensive and more effective.  There was a system topology thread here a while ago that might be helpful along the general lines of simplifying and rationalizing your system layout.  And I dare say @marce, @Speedskater, and other members who have a great deal of useful knowledge about system grounding issues could possibly be very helpful if you gave them detailed information about your system, its layout, power connections, etc.

[Cornan]

19 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

Why do you need an objective crutch for your purely subjective perception?

Not enough to just "experience" it?

 

For me this hobby is purely subjective, but it is always interesting to know objective views as long as they comes from real life experiances & experiments.

[marce]

I presume each grounding point in an extreq box is isolated from the others?

 

 

[Cornan]

2 minutes ago, Jud said:

 

Ah - that would seem to be an indication in favor of the possibility that what you are hearing is a change in ground or leakage currents.

 

If that’s the case, you might well be able to take measures that are both less expensive and more effective.  There was a system topology thread here a while ago that might be helpful along the general lines of simplifying and rationalizing your system layout.  And I dare say @marce, @Speedskater, and other members who have a great deal of useful knowledge about system grounding issues could possibly be very helpful if you gave them detailed information about your system, its layout, power connections, etc.

 

I know about the system typology thread. I posted there as well. 

Here is my latest system typology for anyone here to view and comment upon. The Entreq Minimus is connected to the Aqvox switch.

 

[Cornan]

1 minute ago, marce said:

I presume each grounding point in an extreq box is isolated from the others?

 

 

 

I use Entreq Minimus connected to one device only. Entreq Tellus have several grounding points which are isolated from each other. 

[AJ Soundfield]

31 minutes ago, Cornan said:

I am interested in any plausible explanation why the grounding boxes affects SQ.

No you aren't.

You are seeking an objective crutch for a subjective belief, due to unease.

You will completely dismiss the most plausible explanation, it's your imagination and instead seek some techno-babble "objective" one due to remote plausibility like grounding etc.

You won't test for either of course.

[plissken]

2 hours ago, Cornan said:

I think the OP clearly indicates that I want to know why they WORK

 

They work by being an antenna, introducing a higher noise floor that you seem to have a preference for. You just aren't educated enough to know what it is you are hearing.

 

It's your preference and you a welcome to it.

[marce]

29 minutes ago, Cornan said:

 

I use Entreq Minimus connected to one device only. Entreq Tellus have several grounding points which are isolated from each other. 

Just wanted to check I hadn't missed that point... so ground loops are out antennas are in, I think I shall be contacting the ASA regarding UK adverts for these ground boxes.

[The Computer Audiophile]

18 minutes ago, AJ Soundfield said:

No you aren't.

You are seeking an objective crutch for a subjective belief, due to unease.

You will completely dismiss the most plausible explanation, it's your imagination and instead seek some techno-babble "objective" one due to remote plausibility like grounding etc.

You won't test for either of course.

 

You sure seem confident in knowing what others are thinking. With such a mind reading ability, I'm surprised you're in the non-lucrative field of loudspeaker manufacturing. 

 

Seriously, you come off as being a jerk. Whether that is intentional or not, I have no idea. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

20 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

They work by being an antenna, introducing a higher noise floor that you seem to have a preference for. You just aren't educated enough to know what it is you are hearing.

 

It's your preference and you a welcome to it.

 

It would be really nice to hear what Entreq has to say about this measurement. I'll try contacting them for the other side of the story. 

[plissken]

11 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

You sure seem confident in knowing what others are thinking. With such a mind reading ability, I'm surprised you're in the non-lucrative field of loudspeaker manufacturing. 

 

Seriously, you come off as being a jerk. Whether that is intentional or not, I have no idea. 

 

Chris, with respect. Multiple explanations, that have been ASKED for, have been given, and all dismissed.

 

So given that information AJ, and it's conclusion that I can't find fault with, has made another guess as to not how but WHY the listener thinks the box works.

 

Why does AJ need to be tea and cookies pleasant with someone that is ignoring so much data? He's not being unpleasant, just sometimes it takes a different tact.

 

You could also simply close the thread.

[plissken]

2 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

It would be really nice to hear what Entreq has to say about this measurement. I'll try contacting them for the other side of the story. 

 

Could you ask them for a technical on why the box works and what measurements they use to support their claims?

[marce]

7 minutes ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

It would be really nice to hear what Entreq has to say about this measurement. I'll try contacting them for the other side of the story. 

It would be nice to get some science based facts as well, but I'm not holding my breath.

[plissken]

I'm not aware of any other circuit where a single wire is connected with no return path and it's NOT an antenna.

 

If there is please let me know.

[The Computer Audiophile]

10 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Chris, with respect. Multiple explanations, that have been ASKED for, have been given, and all dismissed.

 

So given that information AJ, and it's conclusion that I can't find fault with, has made another guess as to not how but WHY the listener thinks the box works.

 

Why does AJ need to be tea and cookies pleasant with someone that is ignoring so much data? He's not being unpleasant, just sometimes it takes a different tact.

 

You could also simply close the thread.

 

This is like talking with with an Anti-Vaxer.

 

Hi plissken - Thanks for the reply. 

 

Nobody needs to be tea and cookies pleasant, but nobody should be a jerk. If you look at that comment, who is it really for? It's for AJ and perhaps people who like him. It's not for the person asking questions. No minds are going to be changed or educated with a comment like that. 

 

I certainly hear you about talking with an Anti-Vaxer. I have one in my extended family. I used to provide facts and data to this person. I've now stopped talking about it with him/her. I have no duty to continue discussing the issue. Even after the measles outbreak here in Minnesota because of the crusade of an Anti-Vaxer, I didn't talk to this relative about it. 

 

I wish some people would take this approach. If talking to someone using what you know to be true, yields results that one doesn't agree with or similar, just stop talking to the person. 

[The Computer Audiophile]

9 minutes ago, plissken said:

 

Could you ask them for a technical on why the box works and what measurements they use to support their claims?

Yes, for sure.

[Cornan]

20 minutes ago, marce said:

Just wanted to check I hadn't missed that point... so ground loops are out antennas are in, I think I shall be contacting the ASA regarding UK adverts for these ground boxes.

 

Can you explain why ground loops are out due to the fact that it is one connection only? Is it far off to assume that tourmaline stones neutralize ground loops by negative charges?

[plissken]

1 minute ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

 

Hi plissken - Thanks for the reply. 

 

Nobody needs to be tea and cookies pleasant, but nobody should be a jerk. If you look at that comment, who is it really for? It's for AJ and nobody perhaps people who like him. It's not for the person asking questions. No minds are going to be changed or educated with a comment like that. 

 

I certainly hear you about talking with an Anti-Vaxer. I have one in my extended family. I used to provide facts and data to this person. I've now stopped talking about it with him/her. I have no duty to continue discussing the issue. Even after the measles outbreak here in Minnesota because of the crusade of an Anti-Vaxer, I didn't talk to this relative about it. 

 

I wish some people would take this approach. If talking to someone using what you know to be true, yields results that one doesn't agree with or similar, just stop talking to the person. 

 

I read several articles about the measles outbreak. Heartbreaking as I couldn't imagine putting my child through that.

 

But here is where our approaches diverge: The person that isn't reasonable, or in some sense of the word may not be totally sane in a narrow context, may need to hear the message, often, from others. Because it MAY click when someone else gives them basically the same information.

 

And yes we live in a society where some amount of shame or ridicule, hopefully, carefully measured out, as stick vs carrot.

 

AJ is not alone in pointing out these alternative explanations. What's left after sound data has been rejected? I don't think he's being a jerk, he's simply left with no other conclusion given the data.