MQA is Vaporware

[KeenObserver]

2 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

Anderson was far back in Mike's resume (before 1996).  I really doubt it has anything at all to do with the MQA business model.

 

Andersen, not Anderson.  I would think that you know this,  seeing as how you know every single minute detail about MQA, going back to its inception.

Whatever happened to Andersen?

[KeenObserver]

The thought of a MQA "ecosystem" is truly disturbing.  Having MQA control the entire music chain would be a nightmare!

[MikeyFresh]

19 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

The thought of a MQA "ecosystem" is truly disturbing. 

 

That it is, although in the case of LS, it's just consultant-speak BS and nothing more.

[Fokus]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

@Miska or @mansr: As leaky as the MQA filters are, I wouldn’t think of them as apodizing. Are they? Would the fact the filters are so short have some effect similar to an apodizing filter?

 

They are not.

 

In Meridian-speak a filter apodises if 1) it cuts out specifically targetted ringing from an earlier filter and 2) it is relatively short and/or minimum phase so as to not introduce severe ringing itself.

 

The MQA rendering filters are so weak that they barely cut at all, thus they do not obey 1).

 

Contrast the Explorer, which is minimum-phase apodising

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer-usb-da-processorheadphone-amplifier-measurements

 

with the Explorer 2, which uses MQA-style filtering all the time:

 

https://www.stereophile.com/content/meridian-explorer2-da-headphone-amplifier-measurements

[Paul R]

3 hours ago, Lee Scoggins said:

 

 

2. I have defended the business model because I have seen the value of "data ecosystems" and as someone who has worked on recording session with musicians, I see it as a possible path to getting folks to pay more for premium music which in turn could lead to more revenue for the artist.  I am historically not a fan of record labels or how they have been managed.  That view is well documented on the Steve Hoffman forum.

 

 

I should like to ask you to expand upon this a bit more. So far as I can see, MQA is not very beneficial to most musicians, only to the corporate side, which is probably not coincidentally, where revenues where supposedly hit the hardest.  I do not see how MQA does anything for the average Joe playing for his supper and selling CDs and music downloads at concerts and on the net. 

 

Now understand, I think the folks that developed MQA had a great idea, and implemented it well, but - well - I also think it was mostly just another way, supposedly an attractive way, to implement DRM, which always fails sooner or later. 

 

[firedog]

1 hour ago, MikeyFresh said:

 

That it is, although in the case of LS, it's just consultant-speak BS and nothing more.

 

1 hour ago, Paul R said:

 

I should like to ask you to expand upon this a bit more. So far as I can see, MQA is not very beneficial to most musicians, only to the corporate side, which is probably not coincidentally, where revenues where supposedly hit the hardest.  I do not see how MQA does anything for the average Joe playing for his supper and selling CDs and music downloads at concerts and on the net. 

 

Now understand, I think the folks that developed MQA had a great idea, and implemented it well, but - well - I also think it was mostly just another way, supposedly an attractive way, to implement DRM, which always fails sooner or later.  

 

When it was originally announced it sounded like a good idea: a) smaller file sizes for lossless hires; and b)specialized A/D and D/A filtering, unique to each model of DA and AD converter. The A/D and D/A processing would thus would "repair" any anomalies caused by the model of converters used. Result: perfect reproduction. 

Actually sounded like a great concept. I might have bought into that ecosystem.

 

Instead what we got was: a) lossy, and not that great a file size savings; b) the same generic filters for all devices, so no actual "repair" of the A/D deficiencies of the recording. No real improvement in SQ, as a general rule, especially when compared to standard hi-res.

No reason to buy into that "ecosystem".

[FredericV]

27 minutes ago, firedog said:

Instead what we got was: a) lossy, and not that great a file size savings; b) the same generic filters for all devices, so no actual "repair" of the A/D deficiencies of the recording. No real improvement in SQ, as a general rule, especially when compared to standard hi-res.

No reason to buy into that "ecosystem".

 

and virtualy no MQA enabled AD converters !

If MQA was such a big thing and a new paradigm, why didn't the PRO brands jump on MQA?
If end-to-end was real, we would see more AD's with some MQA features.

But it has been proven MQA is not end-to-end, it's not the quality, not the master & not authenticated.

[Jud]

6 hours ago, KeenObserver said:

Whatever happened to Andersen?

 

They were unlucky enough to have a team assigned to Enron, the scam energy company, and further unlucky enough that those in charge of the team thought they ought to protect the scammers rather than perform a true audit.

 

As is usual with these things, since Andersen was a prime source of money for those defrauded by Enron with the help of Andersen accountants, the entire 80,000-person firm was way downsized, and changed from primarily an accounting firm to a consultancy.  (My brother worked for a subsidiary as a retail consultant, but lost his job in the downsizing.)

[Jud]

5 hours ago, Paul R said:

I should like to ask you to expand upon this a bit more. So far as I can see, MQA is not very beneficial to most musicians, only to the corporate side, which is probably not coincidentally, where revenues where supposedly hit the hardest.  I do not see how MQA does anything for the average Joe playing for his supper and selling CDs and music downloads at concerts and on the net. 

 

 

The idea is classic “trickle down” - the folks in charge will make more $$, which of course they will immediately generously share with the artists, who need the money since they have perpetually been royally screwed by exactly these same folks in charge.

[randyhat]

14 hours ago, The Computer Audiophile said:

I wouldn't do that, but you're welcome to. You wouldn't judge a mate based solely on how s/he looks.

 

8 hours ago, firedog said:

Not quite. Let’s say I think MQA sometimes results in a small improvement in SQ over Redbook. I then have to judge the worth of that small improvement over the non sonic costs involved with the adoption of MQA on a wide scale, and the possible sonic costs  resulting from the danger of the disappearance of non MQA hi res from the market as a result.

 

I really think you guys are overthinking this...and perhaps I am under thinking but I am somewhat of an audio mercenary.  I am going to listen to be best sounding version I have easy access to. If I have two digital files of the same song and I have concluded that to my ears the MQA version is the best sounding....that is the version I am listening to.  Simple.  Now, if I have to jump through too many hoops or pay extra I will have to evaluate the cost effectiveness...just like I do with any system change or upgrade.  I have a combination of files in my Roon library.  FLAC, Hi-RES, and MQA.  I select the type based upon sound quality.  More often than not I cannot reliably discern any differences but when I can I will choose the one that sounds the best to me.

[Jud]

5 minutes ago, randyhat said:

Now, if I have to jump through too many hoops or pay extra

 

That of course is the entire idea behind a proprietary format with potential for DRM like MQA: If we reach the point where other companies do what Tidal and 2L have already done, then they control your access to music, including your continued access to music you already “own.” They can charge you whatever you’ll pay not to have your music shut off like a faucet. And you better hope MQA never goes out of business, or is abandoned by the music companies for something they like better.

[The Computer Audiophile]

17 minutes ago, randyhat said:

 

 

I really think you guys are overthinking this...and perhaps I am under thinking but I am somewhat of an audio mercenary.  I am going to listen to be best sounding version I have easy access to. If I have two digital files of the same song and I have concluded that to my ears the MQA version is the best sounding....that is the version I am listening to.  Simple.  Now, if I have to jump through too many hoops or pay extra I will have to evaluate the cost effectiveness...just like I do with any system change or upgrade.  I have a combination of files in my Roon library.  FLAC, Hi-RES, and MQA.  I select the type based upon sound quality.  More often than not I cannot reliably discern any differences but when I can I will choose the one that sounds the best to me.

I too listen to the best version available. However, as we’ve already seen MQA is the only version available for streaming for the 2L label via Qobuz. We’v Lost the choice. Now, someone else decides what’s best for you from the version to even the filters selected for playback. 

 

 

[lucretius]

2 hours ago, Jud said:

 

They were unlucky enough to have a team assigned to Enron, the scam energy company, and further unlucky enough that those in charge of the team thought they ought to protect the scammers rather than perform a true audit.

 

As is usual with these things, since Andersen was a prime source of money for those defrauded by Enron with the help of Andersen accountants, the entire 80,000-person firm was way downsized, and changed from primarily an accounting firm to a consultancy.  (My brother worked for a subsidiary as a retail consultant, but lost his job in the downsizing.)

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen

 

[manisandher]

10 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Andersen

 

 

"The former consultancy and outsourcing practice of the firm [Andersen Consulting] separated from the firm's accountancy practice in 1987, split from Andersen Worldwide in 2000 and renamed itself Accenture. It continues to operate."

 

When I worked for Andersen Consulting in the early-mid 90s it was totally autonomous from Arthur Andersen... or so we were told.

 

Mani.

[Rt66indierock]

26 minutes ago, manisandher said:

 

"The former consultancy and outsourcing practice of the firm [Andersen Consulting] separated from the firm's accountancy practice in 1987, split from Andersen Worldwide in 2000 and renamed itself Accenture. It continues to operate."

 

When I worked for Andersen Consulting in the early-mid 90s it was totally autonomous from Arthur Andersen... or so we were told.

 

Mani.

 

Not totally autonomous Andersen Consulting owed Arthur  Andersen 15% of its profits during that time.

[lucretius]

27 minutes ago, Rt66indierock said:

 

Not totally autonomous Andersen Consulting owed Arthur  Andersen 15% of its profits during that time.

 Part of the pyramid scheme ☺️

[Rt66indierock]

6 minutes ago, lucretius said:

 Part of the pyramid scheme ☺️

They a great one with tax shelters.

[KeenObserver]

What all this comes down to is this: Do you TRUST the people that are advocating for MQA?

[Paul R]

15 minutes ago, KeenObserver said:

What all this comes down to is this: Do you TRUST the people that are advocating for MQA?

 

Trust exactly whom? And in exactly what respect? 

 

Trust the technical minds minds and at least the potentional of the technology for sound reproduction? Sure.

 

Trust the marketing minds and the potential for abuse? Probably not.

 

Trust most of the reviewers? Yep, they try hard to be both accurate and mostly objective. Some are just stuffed shirts with a desperate need for recognition, but those are few and very far between in our hobby world. 

 

There is is no way to wrap up the issue into simple little sound bytes suitable for the evening news. The subject needs more of an NPR in depth reporting treatment.

[KeenObserver]

Seems like this has been an 424 page extensive discussion of the matter.  One has to separate the wheat from the chaff. A matter of who do you TRUST.

[KeenObserver]

What is truth, and what is propaganda?

[Ralf11]

[randyhat]

Godwin's law has finally been invoked.  Surprised it took this long.

[Ralf11]

it is all being recorded on the Magnetophon too

[Daccord]

50 minutes ago, randyhat said:

Godwin's law has finally been invoked.  Surprised it took this long.

 

I believe Godwin made a guest appearance a page or two back.